Post-Game Talk: DD da GOAT: Habs win 2-1 OT

[Kriss E]

Curious, is there a website that tracks secondary/primary assists?

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...6&type=individual&sort=ifassists&sortdir=DESC

DD is the worst forward for first to second assist ratio after Sekac.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...6&type=individual&sort=ifassists&sortdir=DESC

DD is the worst forward for first to second assist ratio after Sekac.

Thanks.

I think that's a function of DD not shooting enough. When you shoot and people pick up rebounds/tip shots you usually get more primary assists.

In "all situations" DD is pretty much on par with our other centers who shoot more frequently.

 

[montreal]

So in the middle of a discussion about lines and maybe switching Max-DD, you bring up the fact that Max had his best year with DD for no point whatsoever??
Don't insult my intelligence please.

what intelligence?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

pretty much the same team is not the same as it's the same team. There's kind of an important difference there.

Come on. It's not like there's a major subtraction that explains the difference. If anything this is a better roster.

Again look at the defense, there's no way anyone should think a D that has Beaulieu Gonchar Gilbert Emelin as regulars in their top 6 is a roster full of talent. They just don't have it.

I'll take Beaulieu and Gonchar over Bouillion and Gorges. Again, look at the difference in the rosters, how is it that we can be 4th back then and only 22nd now? How do you explain this?

I do agree this team should be better but no way is this a strong roster, just not enough talent outside a small few. keep banging the drum, it won't change the fact that this team lacks talent.

Well, we have more talent than we did in 2013. We were able to do it back then... why can't we do it now?

We'll see what they do in the playoffs but I look at management, they put this team together and so far they haven't gotten us much help outside of getting Gonchar on the cheap who was struggling in Dallas from what I understand.

An offensive system (or at least one that's less stifling) would do more for us than a new RWer would. We need both.

 

[Kriss E]

what intelligence?

I expect more from a mod.

I guess I'll have to take the higher road. Cheers.

 

[montreal]

Come on. It's not like there's a major subtraction that explains the difference. If anything this is a better roster.

I'll take Beaulieu and Gonchar over Bouillion and Gorges. Again, look at the difference in the rosters, how is it that we can be 4th back then and only 22nd now? How do you explain this?

Well, we have more talent than we did in 2013. We were able to do it back then... why can't we do it now?

An offensive system (or at least one that's less stifling) would do more for us than a new RWer would. We need both.

If you really want to break down the 2012-2013 season vs this year then you should look at it game by game and perhaps you will find your answer. We agree that this team should be better but I think this team has a clear lack of talent.

As for a new system, it could open up scoring but then you don't know what impact it would have on our all round game. To me the answer is that we need more talent throughout the lineup and until we get that we are going to continue to struggle to consistently produce offense.

Since my only concern is this season let's take a closer look at the roster,

Pac- elite sniper, 2nd to Price as the teams MVP, is having an outstanding year.

Subban- has had his ups and downs but our best D, 2nd on the team in scoring, our blueline has scored 23 goals this year and PK has almost half of them (11).

Pleks- underrated two way player, consistent 20+ goal scorer.

Galchenyuk- already 2nd on the team in goals, he's going to be a stud one day, needs to put it all together but the skill is there for sure.

DD- impressive play maker but doesn't bring much more to the table, is overmatched in his own end and looks to pass too much which makes him easier to defend against.

Markov- has lost a step as he was a great defensemen and one of the top Hab draft picks of the modern era. So good at moving the puck, vision, and smarts.

Gallagher- not the most skilled guy but gota love his effort and willingness to drive the net so hard every night. It's too bad more don't play anywhere close to his level of determination.

Weise- having a breakout year but clearly not the most skilled guy, a great pickup for cheap and he's really helped the club but not a player you want in your top 6.

Sekac- skilled but the rookie has struggled to produce and must find a way to get more shots on net while getting his nose dirty more. Going to be interesting to see how he handles himself in the playoffs. Overall needs to be a good bit better then he has.

Eller- has the physical tools you want in a forward, size, skating, speed but doesn't use his size well and is wildly inconsistent with is offensive game. A major disappointment this season. Has some decent offensive skills but it often just doesn't show up game to game.

PAP- started off ok but is also a disappointment for the money he's paid. Injuries have of course hampered him but the lack of production in regulation just isn't good enough.

Emelin- not a skilled D at all, his physical game has been inconsistent and that's his bread and butter.

Prust- not a skilled player, come playoff time he makes for a good 4th liner for sure but he's not going to bring much in the way of offense.

Gonchar- was once a highly skilled d, he's smart and with his vast amount of experience he's been a huge influence on Beaulieu finally showing some consistent level of play. But 1 goal is not getting it done, although he was brought in on the cheap and has been decent overall but it just shows how weak the Habs blueline is when you have Gon-Beau as your 2nd pairing and they have scored 1 goal on the season. Just terrible.

Gilbert- if he was skilled he's not showing it, has been a disappointment and while he's been better of late since paired with Emelin, he brings little in the way of offense or skill.

Beaulieu- has played his best hockey since paired with Gonchar but overall his production is terrible for a top 4 D, he struggles to do much in the offensive zone, shots too often blocked and he makes poor decisions. Great skater that can rush the puck up ice but when he's not doing that he doesn't bring much more for the ice time he gets. Needs to be a lot better for a top team in the NHL.

Weaver- not a skilled guy at all, good for the PK and makes for a decent 7th D

Bournival- brings speed, energy, and solid effort in his own end but struggles to do much of anything in the offensive zone. Almost zero production from him

Ghetto- picked up 3 pts in 3 games, showed some things and at other times he showed he needs more seasoning in the AHL.

Tinordi- didn't impress this year as he struggles with the puck, lacks poise and needs to learn to read/react quicker. Not a skilled guy.

Bourque- was terrible this year when here, no production

Allen- was terrible when here, not a skilled guy

Thomas- his goal was nice but 1 pt in 13 games for an offensive guy is not good at all. Has been able to get some shots on net which is good but other then speed and shot he doesn't bring much else.

DLR- 1 pt in 6 games, is known for his defensive play and physical tools but will need to show some offensive upside at some point.

Manny Moe- great at face-offs and a solid PKer but brings nothing else, 0 offense and not a skilled guy to say the least.

Bowman, Dumont, Tangradi, Moen- all held pointless when they appeared in games for the Habs.

I expect more from a mod.

I guess I'll have to take the higher road. Cheers.

sorry I was just assuming. see what happens when you assume?

 

[Kriss E]

sorry I was just assuming. see what happens when you assume?

You didn't assume anything, you made a sarcastic and petty joke because you can't counter an argument.
''I just happen to mention that Max had his best career year with DD in the middle of a discussion about Max-DD for NO PARTICULAR REASON''.
I will say though, thanks for the good chuckle.

 

[montreal]

You didn't assume anything, you made a sarcastic and petty joke because you can't counter an argument.
''I just happen to mention that Max had his best career year with DD in the middle of a discussion about Max-DD for NO PARTICULAR REASON''.
I will say though, thanks for the good chuckle.

there's no counter argument, you called me dishonest for stating a fact. It's too bad you can't handle hearing a fact stated.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

there's no counter argument, you called me dishonest for stating a fact. It's too bad you can't handle hearing a fact stated.

It's funny that you continue to defend that "fact" as though it has some relevance in the discussion.

Shows how much of a valid argument you have, I guess.

But hey, you really got that other poster with that zinger, so you have that going for you in life.

 

[montreal]

It's funny that you continue to defend that "fact" as though it has some relevance in the discussion.

Shows how much of a valid argument you have, I guess.

But hey, you really got that other poster with that zinger, so you have that going for you in life.

I'm glad you find it funny, but it is a fact so why would I need a valid argument, what's not valid about it?

 

[HabsDieHard*]

I'm glad you find it funny, but it is a fact so why would I need a valid argument, what's not valid about it?

Well it's kind of like if someone started dating a girl and he'd never had a girlfriend before and he went around all the time telling people about how she was his best girlfriend ever.

Most people would just kind of smile and say "okay".

And sure, what he is saying is a fact...she IS his best girlfriend ever.

But since there's not another girl to compare it to, it's a completely empty statement.

Pacioretty has never, in his entire career, played a full season with a center other than Desharnais.

So the fact that he's had his most successful seasons while playing with Desharnais, is completely meaningless.

So you can sit there til you're blue in the face touting the "fact" that Paciorettys' best season came with Desharnais as his primary center, and you can get all pissy pants about people claiming it's misleading all you'd like as well.

But you only have yourself to blame because you're treating this "fact" that has zero relevance as some sort of bench mark worth mentioning.

And it's embarrassing.

 

[Brass]

If you really want to break down the 2012-2013 season vs this year then you should look at it game by game and perhaps you will find your answer. We agree that this team should be better but I think this team has a clear lack of talent.

As for a new system, it could open up scoring but then you don't know what impact it would have on our all round game. To me the answer is that we need more talent throughout the lineup and until we get that we are going to continue to struggle to consistently produce offense.

Since my only concern is this season let's take a closer look at the roster,

Pac- elite sniper, 2nd to Price as the teams MVP, is having an outstanding year.

Subban- has had his ups and downs but our best D, 2nd on the team in scoring, our blueline has scored 23 goals this year and PK has almost half of them (11).

Pleks- underrated two way player, consistent 20+ goal scorer.

Galchenyuk- already 2nd on the team in goals, he's going to be a stud one day, needs to put it all together but the skill is there for sure.

DD- impressive play maker but doesn't bring much more to the table, is overmatched in his own end and looks to pass too much which makes him easier to defend against.

Markov- has lost a step as he was a great defensemen and one of the top Hab draft picks of the modern era. So good at moving the puck, vision, and smarts.

Gallagher- not the most skilled guy but gota love his effort and willingness to drive the net so hard every night. It's too bad more don't play anywhere close to his level of determination.

Weise- having a breakout year but clearly not the most skilled guy, a great pickup for cheap and he's really helped the club but not a player you want in your top 6.

Sekac- skilled but the rookie has struggled to produce and must find a way to get more shots on net while getting his nose dirty more. Going to be interesting to see how he handles himself in the playoffs. Overall needs to be a good bit better then he has.

Eller- has the physical tools you want in a forward, size, skating, speed but doesn't use his size well and is wildly inconsistent with is offensive game. A major disappointment this season. Has some decent offensive skills but it often just doesn't show up game to game.

PAP- started off ok but is also a disappointment for the money he's paid. Injuries have of course hampered him but the lack of production in regulation just isn't good enough.

Emelin- not a skilled D at all, his physical game has been inconsistent and that's his bread and butter.

Prust- not a skilled player, come playoff time he makes for a good 4th liner for sure but he's not going to bring much in the way of offense.

Gonchar- was once a highly skilled d, he's smart and with his vast amount of experience he's been a huge influence on Beaulieu finally showing some consistent level of play. But 1 goal is not getting it done, although he was brought in on the cheap and has been decent overall but it just shows how weak the Habs blueline is when you have Gon-Beau as your 2nd pairing and they have scored 1 goal on the season. Just terrible.

Gilbert- if he was skilled he's not showing it, has been a disappointment and while he's been better of late since paired with Emelin, he brings little in the way of offense or skill.

Beaulieu- has played his best hockey since paired with Gonchar but overall his production is terrible for a top 4 D, he struggles to do much in the offensive zone, shots too often blocked and he makes poor decisions. Great skater that can rush the puck up ice but when he's not doing that he doesn't bring much more for the ice time he gets. Needs to be a lot better for a top team in the NHL.

Weaver- not a skilled guy at all, good for the PK and makes for a decent 7th D

Bournival- brings speed, energy, and solid effort in his own end but struggles to do much of anything in the offensive zone. Almost zero production from him

Ghetto- picked up 3 pts in 3 games, showed some things and at other times he showed he needs more seasoning in the AHL.

Tinordi- didn't impress this year as he struggles with the puck, lacks poise and needs to learn to read/react quicker. Not a skilled guy.

Bourque- was terrible this year when here, no production

Allen- was terrible when here, not a skilled guy

Thomas- his goal was nice but 1 pt in 13 games for an offensive guy is not good at all. Has been able to get some shots on net which is good but other then speed and shot he doesn't bring much else.

DLR- 1 pt in 6 games, is known for his defensive play and physical tools but will need to show some offensive upside at some point.

Manny Moe- great at face-offs and a solid PKer but brings nothing else, 0 offense and not a skilled guy to say the least.

Bowman, Dumont, Tangradi, Moen- all held pointless when they appeared in games for the Habs.





sorry I was just assuming. see what happens when you assume?

Solid Post !!

The only one i dont fully agree is beaulieu , hes there to make up for gonch mistakes , and proved himself really good in all situation !

Otherwise

 

[Hoople]

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...6&type=individual&sort=ifassists&sortdir=DESC

DD is the worst forward for first to second assist ratio after Sekac.

That's what I love about stats. You can always find one to back up your argument on the internet.

From your link, did you happen to see this one?

FirstA/60 (Primary Assists per 60 minutes)

DD - .64
Pleks - .62
Galchenyuk - .65
Eller - .37
Subban - .29

Now remember, this is 5 on 5.

Are we going to see you blasting Eller or Subban for their "lower" primary assists per 60 minutes?

Or will you continue to couch the argument in a primary to secondary assist ratio?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

That's what I love about stats. You can always find one to back up your argument on the internet.

From your link, did you happen to see this one?

FirstA/60 (Primary Assists per 60 minutes)

DD - .64
Pleks - .62
Galchenyuk - .65
Eller - .37
Subban - .29

Now remember, this is 5 on 5.

Are we going to see you blasting Eller or Subban for their "lower" primary assists per 60 minutes?

Or will you continue to couch the argument in a primary to secondary assist ratio?

Subban makes sense, a d-man doesn't usually get first assists except on PP.

As for Eller, something something linemates, usage, something something.

 

[montreal]

Well it's kind of like if someone started dating a girl and he'd never had a girlfriend before and he went around all the time telling people about how she was his best girlfriend ever.

Most people would just kind of smile and say "okay".

And sure, what he is saying is a fact...she IS his best girlfriend ever.

But since there's not another girl to compare it to, it's a completely empty statement.

Pacioretty has never, in his entire career, played a full season with a center other than Desharnais.

So the fact that he's had his most successful seasons while playing with Desharnais, is completely meaningless.

So you can sit there til you're blue in the face touting the "fact" that Paciorettys' best season came with Desharnais as his primary center, and you can get all pissy pants about people claiming it's misleading all you'd like as well.

But you only have yourself to blame because you're treating this "fact" that has zero relevance as some sort of bench mark worth mentioning.

And it's embarrassing.

what's embarrassing is posters reactions to a fact, you hate the player so much that you can't stand to hear it? Pac had his best season with DD as his center, he scored the most goals he's ever scored. That's a fact, nothing more. Don't like it, deal with it.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

That's what I love about stats. You can always find one to back up your argument on the internet.

From your link, did you happen to see this one?

FirstA/60 (Primary Assists per 60 minutes)

DD - .64
Pleks - .62
Galchenyuk - .65
Eller - .37
Subban - .29

Now remember, this is 5 on 5.

Are we going to see you blasting Eller or Subban for their "lower" primary assists per 60 minutes?

Or will you continue to couch the argument in a primary to secondary assist ratio?

I think it's funny that you highlight these statistics to support your argument.

The fact that Desharnais has a .64 primary assists per 60 minutes rating, while spending as much time as he has with Pacioretty, while Plekanec is just .02 behind, is incredibly telling of how much more of a logical fit Plekanec is with Pacioretty than Desharnais.

Thanks for highlighting that fact, if it wasn't blatantly clear already that Plekanec is a better fit with Pacioretty than Desharnais, you certainly helped clear it up with that post.

Great job!

 

[HabsDieHard*]

what's embarrassing is posters reactions to a fact, you hate the player so much that you can't stand to hear it? Pac had his best season with DD as his center, he scored the most goals he's ever scored. That's a fact, nothing more. Don't like it, deal with it.

It's not about liking or not liking the "fact".

If you want to continue to tout the fact that Pacioretty had his best statistical season playing with the only center he's ever played with full time over a season people are going to continue to point out how pointless and meaningless that "fact" is.

If you don't like it, you should perhaps refrain from making inane and pointless statements and acting like a petulant child when people explain why they're so inane and pointless.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

what's embarrassing is posters reactions to a fact, you hate the player so much that you can't stand to hear it? Pac had his best season with DD as his center, he scored the most goals he's ever scored. That's a fact, nothing more. Don't like it, deal with it.

Pretty sure it's troll baiting, though (especially how you've presented it and carried yourself through the discussion), and that you're supposed to be above that.

 

[Hoople]

Subban makes sense, a d-man doesn't usually get first assists except on PP.

As for Eller, something something linemates, usage, something something.

In that context, its surprising that Gonchar's FirstA/60 is higher than Eller's.

 

[montreal]

Solid Post !!

The only one i dont fully agree is beaulieu , hes there to make up for gonch mistakes , and proved himself really good in all situation !

Otherwise

thanks but I can't agree at all that Beaulieu covers up Gonchar's mistakes, easily the other way around. A couple games ago, Beaulieu once again had his shot blocked at the blueline which led to the opposing team going in on a 2 on 1, I believe Price got a piece of the puck but it was going in until Gonchar saved the day.

I've noticed a lot of mistakes by Beaulieu, more so at the offensive blueline but I've always found him to be someone that lacks smarts as he always seems to make questionable decisions.

 

[Hoople]

I think it's funny that you highlight these statistics to support your argument.

The fact that Desharnais has a .64 primary assists per 60 minutes rating, while spending as much time as he has with Pacioretty, while Plekanec is just .02 behind, is incredibly telling of how much more of a logical fit Plekanec is with Pacioretty than Desharnais.

Thanks for highlighting that fact, if it wasn't blatantly clear already that Plekanec is a better fit with Pacioretty than Desharnais, you certainly helped clear it up with that post.

Great job!

Maybe you can enlighten us and tell us what is wrong with a forward getting primary assists for the most talented goal scorer on the team.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I think it's funny that you highlight these statistics to support your argument.

The fact that Desharnais has a .64 primary assists per 60 minutes rating, while spending as much time as he has with Pacioretty, while Plekanec is just .02 behind, is incredibly telling of how much more of a logical fit Plekanec is with Pacioretty than Desharnais.

Thanks for highlighting that fact, if it wasn't blatantly clear already that Plekanec is a better fit with Pacioretty than Desharnais, you certainly helped clear it up with that post.

Great job!

Did Plekanec play out of his natural position? Plekanec has more pro wing experience than DD and putting him at wing wouldn't give good results. Keep in mind when DD was C for a whole year like last year:

DD FirstA per 60: 0.84
Plekanec FirstA per 60: 0.38

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...type=individual&sort=ifassists60&sortdir=DESC

He lead the team regulars by a wide margin.

Now that it's out of the way, keep in mind SoutherHab illustrated a very important point. Stats can be used to further any perspective.

For example:

Last year Gallagher had 7 of 20 assists 5 on 5 being first assists. 35%

This year Gallagher has 11 of his 13 assists 5 on 5 being first assists. 85%!

Gallagher has improved so much as a playmaker!

OR this **** fluctuates and is a waste of time to look at.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

By the way, that .64 primary assists per 60 minutes played figure comes in at 105th in the league for forwards who have played 500 minutes this season.

So, it's "fantastic" that he significantly outproduces the 3rd line center of this team.

And it's "fantastic" that he has a .02 higher rate than Plekanec as well.

But much like pretty well any other statistic to support Desharnais, it actually doesn't do that at all.

Pacioretty is 13th in goals per 60 minutes. His 1.31 rate is twice as high as Desharnais' primary assists per 60 minutes figure.

Last year, Pacioretty was 5th, at 1.4 goals per 60 minutes. Desharnais was 45th.

If Desharnais is an intregal part of Paciorettys' success why does his primary assist per 60 ratio fall so behind Paciorettys' goals per 60 ratio?

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Pretty sure it's troll baiting, though (especially how you've presented it and carried yourself through the discussion), and that you're supposed to be above that.

I'm a newbie here so I'm not going to step on anyones' toes but it's nice to see a long time member call out the moderator for his bush league actions in this thread.

 

[montreal]

It's not about liking or not liking the "fact".

If you want to continue to tout the fact that Pacioretty had his best statistical season playing with the only center he's ever played with full time over a season people are going to continue to point out how pointless and meaningless that "fact" is.

If you don't like it, you should perhaps refrain from making inane and pointless statements and acting like a petulant child when people explain why they're so inane and pointless.

yea right, face it, you can't stand to hear about Pac having his best season with DD. Don't tell me what to do, if you don't like then feel free to ignore it. I'm not a DD fan but some posters like yourself are the ones acting like crybabies that you have to jump all over anything DD related because it doesn't fit you agenda. Why don't you try growing up? I stated a fact and was called dishonest, that should show you that there is a clear agenda going on here because some just can't stand to hear anything positive about DD.

What a bunch of babies, oh no DD was Pac's center when he scored the most goals of his career. That's a fact, nothing more. Deal with it.