Player Discussion David Desharnais: Yet another thread edition

[Milhouse40]

Oh ok, I didn't mention Eller played wing. How terrible is that. Like somebody on the board isn't aware of that already.

For every career center, i expect a drop of production on the wing. I don't care what his name is and who he played with.

He played with Galchenyuk, got a bunch of ozone starts, weak QoC and not only did his numbers not rise, they were about to be down from what he did playing with Bourque and who have you on that third line. I really don't see where I say Galchenyuk=Duchene. What this means is that he got extremely favorable deployment and played with a very good offensive center. From that his numbers didn't rise at all and almost went down. Is there a sign of evidence on there that suggests that Eller does better with better players? No not at all. If anything it only reinforces the notion that Eller doesn't use his teammates and that no matter who plays besides him, he'll get the same numbers. Also, I think you have to be incredibly dishonest to take from that post that I suggest Galchenyuk=Duchene.

30 points in 46 games with Prust and Galchenyuk
13 points in 20 games with Galchenyuk and Gallagher
13 points in 17 games with Bourque and Gionta

Is there any evidence that when Eller is at center with a little skills on his wing won't do any better?

Cause the numbers i've put are the only stretches since Therrien is here that Eller actually played with someone who is (or was) considered a top 6 players. There's not any other stretches than that.


56 points in 83 games....
And that's without top 6 minutes on the PP....

 

[LaP]

Since the start of November

Desharnais: 15 points in 42gp avg 16:48 TOI

Eller 12 points in 42gp avg 15:04 TOI

DD

November to today : 42GP 15P
December to today : 29GP 7P
January to today : 15GP 5P

Eller

November to today : 42GP 12P
December to today : 29GP 6P
January to today : 15Gp 4P

Pretty similar production. Can we all now agree they both kind of **** offensively?

 

[DangerDave]

I am not the one that mentioned line numbers. I was merely pointing out the fact that this was never the case.

and the ultimate point is this.

Say we land our top center.

or another top 3 winger. and for arguments sake... lets call him Toews.

and the top 6 would look liek this.

Pacioretty-Toews- Gallagher

Chcuky-Plek- (Ghetto/Scherbak/FA) cuz it wont be Weise

do you then have Eller as a third lien center... or DD.

I cant see DD getting much TOI on the PP

How would he fit in

I think it depends on what the team needs really. Are we in need of more goals or defense. I'm not that high on either guy and am hoping Mac will replace them though. We need some size and even if Eller is pretty big, he rarely ever gets in front of the net or in scoring areas where he can use that size. DD goes to those areas but his size just doesen't allow him to be as effective. I wish we could fuse those two players together somehow. They'd be beastly.

 

[Milhouse40]

DD

November to today : 42GP 15P
December to today : 29GP 7P
January to today : 15GP 5P

Eller

November to today : 42GP 12P
December to today : 29GP 6P
January to today : 15Gp 4P

Pretty similar production. Can we all now agree they both kind of **** offensively?

But then you would've to consider the amount of TOI and the amount of PP time.

 

[CHaracter79]

DD

November to today : 42GP 15P
December to today : 29GP 7P
January to today : 15GP 5P

Eller

November to today : 42GP 12P
December to today : 29GP 6P
January to today : 15Gp 4P

Pretty similar production. Can we all now agree they both kind of **** offensively?

You are looking at those stats without consideration.

from december to today for example..



Add total PP min per player. Total TOI. whats their respective P/60 min

and remove PK minutes from each player. Why?

if you were to play 3 minutes a game on the pp 3 minutes a game on PK... would you be expected to produce points playing on PK or on PP.

or hey.. even if you like.. keep the PP minutes and remove the pk minutes for each player.

youd see that given the usage and the quality of ice time, DD is severly under performing..

I wont even begin to say.. why dont you play ELLER with Pacioretty for 13 games. A war would ensue.

yet one player has those poor stats from december til tday playing half the game with pacioretty and much more PP time. and the other not so much.

 

[CHaracter79]

I think it depends on what the team needs really. Are we in need of more goals or defense. I'm not that high on either guy and am hoping Mac will replace them though. We need some size and even if Eller is pretty big, he rarely ever gets in front of the net or in scoring areas where he can use that size. DD goes to those areas but his size just doesen't allow him to be as effective. I wish we could fuse those two players together somehow. They'd be beastly.

I ask you this... you may not be high on eithe rplayer and that is every right of yours... but can you please let me know how many 3rd line centers get you 13-15 goals per season with no PP time and TOI under 14 min/G

what the team needs is goals. Im all for experiments and we have tried every single possibility out there this season. Why not the EGG lien though? some may say 'well the EGG line really slowed down after a 8 or 9 games when they were put together for that 20 games stretch a few years ago

Yet we continuosly go back to 67-51 with grotesque results.

 

[gillyguzzler]

I'd love to see an RDS reporter ask MT directly :"Desharhais does not have a PP point in over 30 games yet is on every power play, sometimes even double shifted, always with quality wingers, most of the time on the first wave. The numbers don't lie. Why do you insist on playing an unproductive player since your power play is terrible and has been for the 3 years you've been here?"

I assume he'd take this opportunity to take a jab at his other players (likely Eller) and protect DD.

 

[LaP]

I'd love to see an RDS reporter ask MT directly :"Desharhais does not have a PP point in over 30 games yet is on every power play, sometimes even double shifted, always with quality wingers, most of the time on the first wave. The numbers don't lie. Why do you insist on playing an unproductive player since your power play is terrible and has been for the 3 years you've been here?"

The answer would be "that's second guessing"

 

[MXD]

I'd love to see an RDS reporter ask MT directly :"Desharhais does not have a PP point in over 30 games yet is on every power play, sometimes even double shifted, always with quality wingers, most of the time on the first wave. The numbers don't lie. Why do you insist on playing an unproductive player since your power play is terrible and has been for the 3 years you've been here?"

I assume he'd take this opportunity to take a jab at his other players (likely Eller) and protect DD.

Well... I know it's a sad defense, and I don't know whether it's a team tactic or just DD whatevering his way to the crease...

But he's pretty much the guy who ends up in front of the net when he isn't playing with Gallagher, which is, more often than not, and when he otherwise isn't playing on the point.

I'd rather use other players than DD for this (Eller amongst others, even DSP could have its uses), but the fact is... he goes to the net for the screen, while all of our other forwards, with the exception of Gallagher, mostly refuse to do so.

 

[JLP]

...

Yet we continuously go back to 67-51 with grotesque results.

In MT's addled brain, the 67-51 duo is the team's greatest offensive weapon and no other players have ever been nearly as important. No amount of evidence will convince him otherwise.

Desharnais has zero power play points in 34 games yet he still gets every opportunity.

A reasonable person would expect given Desharnais' feeble production that line might be broken up but it will probably be the opposite: Weise moved off and Gallagher added. For years MT's line strategies have revolved around Desharnais, whose smiling face should replace the CH on the crest. It seems like a joke but DD really is our franchise centre.

 

[MXD]

This said, if DD is the one getting specific instructions to go to the net (in other words, that's his purpose on the ice), while Eller or DSP are not used on the powerplay... this is indeed terrible miscasting.

 

[gillyguzzler]

Well... I know it's a sad defense, and I don't know whether it's a team tactic or just DD whatevering his way to the crease...

But he's pretty much the guy who ends up in front of the net when he isn't playing with Gallagher, which is, more often than not, and when he otherwise isn't playing on the point.

I'd rather use other players than DD for this (Eller amongst others, even DSP could have its uses), but the fact is... he goes to the net for the screen, while all of our other forwards, with the exception of Gallagher, mostly refuse to do so.

True, he does, at times go to the front of the net. But he's also had (maybe half) many PP shifts with Gallaguer who is the net presence. So DD is often on the wall or besides the net and it seems he's just not making creative plays anymore. He's bobbling the puck more and loses 90% of his battles. Not a good combination.

Their PP zone entry is terrible as well with 4 guys stopped at the blue line. DD is certainly not the one who can retrieve the dump in.

It's too bad that we don't have a big body with some skill that can be the Gallaguer on the second wave. MT will never play Eller over DD for that net presence and most of the others are small and unskilled. In a couple of years, it could be McCarron but even then, I doubt MT would play him over DD on the PP if he's still the coach and MB is the GM.

 

[cassidy7676]

Am I the only one who noticed that this weekend DD was a bit behind the play and weak on the puck? We can accuse DD of many things but he was most of the time, not so bad on puck battles and timing.

This weekend however he was struggling and Pac seemed pretty piss at some point. Therrien also didnt use him in the last 2 minutes of OT, and shootouts. If there is something Therrien doesnt like, its when his players are behind the play and make softs sloppy plays. (see Semin, Beaulieu, Briere, Pap,

I predict at change of paradigm in Therrien/DD over the next couples of game.

 

[DAChampion]

Am I the only one who noticed that this weekend DD was a bit behind the play and weak on the puck? We can accuse DD of many things but he was most of the time, not so bad on puck battles and timing.

This weekend however he was struggling and Pac seemed pretty piss at some point. Therrien also didnt use him in the last 2 minutes of OT, and shootouts. If there is something Therrien doesnt like, its when his players are behind the play and make softs sloppy plays. (see Semin, Beaulieu, Briere, Pap,

I predict at change of paradigm in Therrien/DD over the next couples of game.

If Desharnais is demoted to the third line, he will feel the heat, score 2 points in 3 games, and be promoted back to the top line.

 

[jpchabby]

Am I the only one who noticed that this weekend DD was a bit behind the play and weak on the puck? We can accuse DD of many things but he was most of the time, not so bad on puck battles and timing.

This weekend however he was struggling and Pac seemed pretty piss at some point. Therrien also didnt use him in the last 2 minutes of OT, and shootouts. If there is something Therrien doesnt like, its when his players are behind the play and make softs sloppy plays. (see Semin, Beaulieu, Briere, Pap,

I predict at change of paradigm in Therrien/DD over the next couples of game.

There hasn't been one in 3 and a half years now. I wouldn't count on that.

 

[sheed36]

Another DD thread full. When DD is finally gone we'll all be like that scene in Forrest Gump after he stops running after 3+ years. The others following him just stands there on the road and the one guy says "Now what are we suppose to do"..

That is gonna be us..

 

[gillyguzzler]

... or MT will be gone and DD will be used properly and most of us will appreciate it.

 

[Grant McCagg]

Am I the only one who noticed that this weekend DD was a bit behind the play and weak on the puck? We can accuse DD of many things but he was most of the time, not so bad on puck battles and timing.

This weekend however he was struggling and Pac seemed pretty piss at some point. Therrien also didnt use him in the last 2 minutes of OT, and shootouts. If there is something Therrien doesnt like, its when his players are behind the play and make softs sloppy plays. (see Semin, Beaulieu, Briere, Pap,

I predict at change of paradigm in Therrien/DD over the next couples of game.

You havent been paying very close attention to DD until this weekend away from the puck. He is regularly the last forward back defensively..time and time again you can't even see him in the screen when an opponent is heading to the Hab's net with the puck...it has been glaringly obvious the past three seasons...not just this past weekend.

Which is why he has predominantly played with Weise, Patch, and Gallagher the past two seasons..who are the team's best backchecking wingers..and they have to be playing with 51...covering the opposing center time and time again defensively

Dat's okay dough...because Davey has Oates/Gretzky type playmaking skills. Okay..zero PP assists in his past 49 games
but dat's just da puck luck.

 

[sheed36]

You havent been paying very close attention to DD until this weekend away from the puck. He is regularly the last forward back defensively..time and time again you can't even see him in the screen when an opponent is heading to the Hab's net with the puck...it has been glaringly obvious the past three seasons...not just this past weekend.

Which is why he has predominantly played with Weise, Patch, and Gallagher the past two seasons..who are the team's best backchecking wingers..and they have to be playing with 51...covering the opposing center time and time again defensively

Dat's okay dough...because Davey has Oates/Gretzky type playmaking skills. Okay..zero PP assists in his past 49 games
but dat's just da puck luck.

That's crazy considering all the PP time he gets and is still getting. There's no logical answer MT can give if ever asked (which he won't be) why he still uses DD on the PP all the time with terrible PP numbers like that. It's insane.

 

[Kriss E]

Eller wasn't used as a 3rd line player. That's so fustrating with people who defend Eller all the time. When they want to bash DD they say he gets 1st line minutes by playing with Pacioretty. When you point out he plays 2nd line minutes then oh no, TOI doesn't count. Eller got to play with Galchenyuk, high number of ozone starts and weak QoC. Don't tell me those aren't quality minutes. Eller was 11th among regular forwards at Pts/60 and dead last among forwards in+/-. Given he played with Galchenyuk and the extremely favorable deployment that's bad.

Those are called sheltered minutes, which you can have from the 3rd line.
No, it's not bad. It's 3rd line production. You can say you'd want more, but 10pts in 25gp is a 33pt production over a full season. That is fine from the 3rd line. You wanted what? 40pts out of your 3rd line? Ya okay.
Would you want more? Okay, maybe a couple more points I guess. But to say he was bad is pure BS.

Oh ok, I didn't mention Eller played wing. How terrible is that. Like somebody on the board isn't aware of that already.

You also omitted to mention who Mitchell produced with when you claimed he was better. Kind of important to mention if you're playing with the likes of DSP/Semin or Duchesne.

He played with Galchenyuk, got a bunch of ozone starts, weak QoC and not only did his numbers not rise, they were about to be down from what he did playing with Bourque and who have you on that third line. I really don't see where I say Galchenyuk=Duchene. What this means is that he got extremely favorable deployment and played with a very good offensive center. From that his numbers didn't rise at all and almost went down. Is there a sign of evidence on there that suggests that Eller does better with better players? No not at all. If anything it only reinforces the notion that Eller doesn't use his teammates and that no matter who plays besides him, he'll get the same numbers. Also, I think you have to be incredibly dishonest to take from that post that I suggest Galchenyuk=Duchene.

Let me guess, this sample where Eller was moved to the wing and Galch to center and they were completed by a player who's no longer in the NHL is more important than the previous times where the did produce well? Or did you forget about everything prior to this year because it doesn't fit your narrative?
Omitting facts again are we??

You keep talking about Galchenyuk like he's some strong offensive weapon who's established. Through the first 25 games, he had 11 ES pts. Eller had 8.
In the following 29 games, Galch has had 9pts at ES. Eller has 6.
Wowzer! What a powerhouse this Galchenyuk! DD has 7 btw.

I'm not being dishonest, when someone asked you if you thought Eller would produce more with Iginla+Duchesne, you said no because he played with Galchenyuk. You can spin this any way you want but you're coming across as extremely biased when you say such ridiculous things.


You want to say that Eller should have produced more with Galch, fine. You can make the case for a couple of points. To go from that to ''he was bad'' and then compare it to DD's production when you are fully aware it was unsustainable and more of a lucky stretch than anything is quite ridiculous.

 

[Beige Van]

That's crazy considering all the PP time he gets and is still getting. There's no logical answer MT can give if ever asked (which he won't be) why he still uses DD on the PP all the time with terrible PP numbers like that. It's insane.

Martin got quite salty when asked about Matt-chew Daaaarche on the PP. I imagine Therrien would go into a berserker rage if similarly questioned..

 

[JLP]

Don't Question Me
/

 

[sheed36]

Martin got quite salty when asked about Matt-chew Daaaarche on the PP. I imagine Therrien would go into a berserker rage if similarly questioned..

And I'd like to see that happen and him making a fool of himself since nothing he could say can justify DD's over usage on the PP at this point and going back 3 years now. Only in MT's small mind does any of this make sense at this point.

 

[Habaddict]

Am I the only one who noticed that this weekend DD was a bit behind the play and weak on the puck? We can accuse DD of many things but he was most of the time, not so bad on puck battles and timing.

This weekend however he was struggling and Pac seemed pretty piss at some point. Therrien also didnt use him in the last 2 minutes of OT, and shootouts. If there is something Therrien doesnt like, its when his players are behind the play and make softs sloppy plays. (see Semin, Beaulieu, Briere, Pap,

I predict at change of paradigm in Therrien/DD over the next couples of game.

I think we have already seen a "first line" without either DD or Maxpac
on it, ever since the All-star break. And I'm sorry if everyone else hates this,
but Chuck looked like the answer to the "we need a first line winger" question.
DD as second line center is still the most obvious place to upgrade on this
team. I think Eller is really good in the third center role. So DD and his 3.5
cap-hit needs to go somewhere else, and we need to find a center. Or,of course,
Chuck goes back to center. But the essential problem is we then really need another winger, and DD still needs to go.

And this from someone who is a fan of DD. I think he is a good team guy.
He is very low maintenance, and a good role model for young players.
Problem is, there is no good role for him on a good team. And his cap-hit
is too much for someone who just provides depth.

 

[gillyguzzler]

I think we have already seen a "first line" without either DD or Maxpac
on it, ever since the All-star break. And I'm sorry if everyone else hates this,
but Chuck looked like the answer to the "we need a first line winger" question.
DD as second line center is still the most obvious place to upgrade on this
team. I think Eller is really good in the third center role. So DD and his 3.5
cap-hit needs to go somewhere else, and we need to find a center. Or,of course,
Chuck goes back to center. But the essential problem is we then really need another winger, and DD still needs to go.

And this from someone who is a fan of DD. I think he is a good team guy.
He is very low maintenance, and a good role model for young players.
Problem is, there is no good role for him on a good team. And his cap-hit
is too much for someone who just provides depth.

DD is not going anywhere (not even to the wing) as long as MT is coach. When, after Saturday's game, MT was asked about Eller's shutdown play against other team's best player, MT responded, in part, that he trusts Plekanec and "even" more Desharnais to play against the other team's top players. In French, he said "et même Desharnais". So MT considers DD to be one of his top offensive players (PP, end of games, 3 on 3,...) and a trusted defensive center that can play against the other top players. Does that make it sound like DD is going anywhere?

It's not DD's fault and I can just assume that he feels like shat in front of his teammates when it comes out that his coach says stuff like that... to the disbelief of everyone but the RDS experts.