David Desharnais - Another New Thread Edition

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Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,448
35,049
Montreal
Faceoffs have been one of the areas I've paid very very close attention to over the years.
I am 100% sure that Davey is far too easily neutralized to make him effective against top faceoff guys.
Davey has an opportunity that our other centers don't get and that is part of the exploitational aspect of his usage he faces lesser opponents in the circle far more than anyone else. So it will buffer his overall numbers.
It would be idiotic to claim he doesn't win draws but people do identify certain draws as essential and as I posted previously he tends to lose more of those than he wins. I can't remark on posts made during GDT
because I only post between periods but I have found myself congratulating him when he does win a crucial draw because it is usually against a specialist.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
5,423
Most draw lost result in the puck going in the other team possession.

If the other team possess the puck, they are more likely to head to our zone.

If they are in our zone, they are more likely to shoot on net.

If they shoot on net, they have more chances of scoring.

If they score, they have more chances of winning.

If they win, it costs us points.

It may not influence our standing, but every little detail is important in hockey. Winning faceoffs is an important part of being a centre.

think he's talking about the numbers themselves, not what happens after every single FO...

and in that regard he's right, I mean, for a regular player (top 9 C) to go from 50 to 51% he'd have to win what, one more FO every 6 or 7 games or something ?

if one goes from 50 to 60% sure it becomes important as it's one (maybe two even) more FO won every single game (on average), but one more every 6 or 7 games ? who cares really...

it's like saying the guy who averages 2.3 shots a game shoots way more often than the guy who average 2.5 shots a game... you know.
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,448
35,049
Montreal
Seriously?

Did you not notice the blatant moving of the goalposts?

The original claim was that he loses all the face offs. Then it was shown that not only is that not true, is hilariously false. He was proven to not only not be bad at that task, but almost the very best in the league.

Whoops.

Now suddenly the goal posts move and the new claim is "Yeah, he wins, them but...."

C'mon, surely you can see this.

Sorry but my post had nothing to do with anything but faceoffs in general.
If you can find anywhere where I claim he loses all his draws by all means give it the light of day.
The comment i responded to was completely reasonable and whatever preceded it was no concern of mine.

The next thing I read is the you Guy(s) are biased crap. With zero discission on the points I made.
So it seems i was tarred with the same brush. I have admitted time and time again that I have zero use for this player. I try to give concise reasons why and right or wrong my opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's.
 

FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
20,338
13,058
Toronto, Ontario
I try to give concise reasons why and right or wrong my opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's.

You think if your opinion is wrong it's just as valuable as someone who's opinion is right?

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Do you think the "Participant" trophy at a hockey banquet is just as valuable as the MVP trophy too?
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,448
35,049
Montreal
You think if your opinion is wrong it's just as valuable as someone who's opinion is right?

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Do you think the "Participant" trophy at a hockey banquet is just as valuable as the MVP trophy too?

Yeah that makes total sense take things as far out of context as you possibly can. :shakehead
Let's all live in a world where opinion no longer matters when it's wrong.
Close the board, stop all debates. There will always be wrong opinions we have a basic fundamental right to be wrong. None of that matters or is valuable to society? Give me a break.
In the first place my opinion has not been proven wrong. In the second even if it was how could the process not be valuable. Stop and think about how wrong opinion is used in LAW...
 

FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
20,338
13,058
Toronto, Ontario
Yeah that makes total sense take things as far out of context as you possibly can. :shakehead
Let's all live in a world where opinion no longer matters when it's wrong.
Close the board, stop all debates. There will always be wrong opinions we have a basic fundamental right to be wrong. None of that matters or is valuable to society? Give me a break.
In the first place my opinion has not been proven wrong. In the second even if it was how could the process not be valuable. Stop and think about how wrong opinion is used in LAW...

Take a deep breath.

Nobody is saying opinion, when wrong, "no longer matters."

What I'm disputing is the notion that a wrong opinion is just as valuable as a correct one. Why you would think that is quite frankly baffling.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. What you are not entitled to is your own facts.

If your opinion is that David Desharnais is terrible at power play face-offs, you are entitled to that opinion. It's wrong, however, and therefore its not longer "as valuable" as the opinion that is actually backed up by facts.
 

Mathletic

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
15,777
407
Ste-Foy
Faceoffs have been one of the areas I've paid very very close attention to over the years.
I am 100% sure that Davey is far too easily neutralized to make him effective against top faceoff guys.
Davey has an opportunity that our other centers don't get and that is part of the exploitational aspect of his usage he faces lesser opponents in the circle far more than anyone else. So it will buffer his overall numbers.
It would be idiotic to claim he doesn't win draws but people do identify certain draws as essential and as I posted previously he tends to lose more of those than he wins. I can't remark on posts made during GDT
because I only post between periods but I have found myself congratulating him when he does win a crucial draw because it is usually against a specialist.

I just checked his opponents' numbers and while there's virtually no difference in opponents' strength on the dot, DD still faced the tougher competition. His average opponent wins 50.6% of his face-offs, Plekanec 50.5%, Eller 49.6%.

Patrice Bergeron is at 50.6%, Kesler 50.9%, Gaustad 51.1%, Stastny 50.6% to name a few.
 

Brainiac

Registered Offender
Feb 17, 2013
12,709
610
Montreal
No, he's desperately grasping at straws to discredit anything DD can be good at.

We're at the point where DD is a completely useless bum and nothing he does well has any relevance or importance. It's a wonder we could still do as well as we did with such a boat anchor in a critical position the last 3 years.

I watch the games, I see DD falling on his ass time after time in the faceoff dot. What's wrong with calling it like you see it?

I was never a DD hater. I liked him when he came into the league. But the last couple of years were painful to watch, especially as we now have a real chance to contend.

I'm fine with DD if the coach can keep him on the 3rd line.
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,448
35,049
Montreal
I just checked his opponents' numbers and while there's virtually no difference in opponents' strength on the dot, DD still faced the tougher competition. His average opponent wins 50.6% of his face-offs, Plekanec 50.5%, Eller 49.6%.

Patrice Bergeron is at 50.6%, Kesler 50.9%, Gaustad 51.1%, Stastny 50.6% to name a few.

Thank you,
Are you able to provide situational results?
 

Mathletic

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
15,777
407
Ste-Foy
Thank you,
Are you able to provide situational results?

I'd have to go throught the play-by-play files, don't really have the time to write a script for this for now. I only used those numbers to make the calculation.

http://faceoffs.net/stats/faceoff-percentage

http://faceoffs.net/stats/faceoff-opponents?player=david-desharnais

They don't provide situational stats by opponents for individual players. All you can see is that DD is top 20 in the league in offensive zone faceoffs.

http://faceoffs.net/stats/faceoff-percentage?zone=off
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,448
35,049
Montreal
Take a deep breath.

Nobody is saying opinion, when wrong, "no longer matters."

What I'm disputing is the notion that a wrong opinion is just as valuable as a correct one. Why you would think that is quite frankly baffling.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. What you are not entitled to is your own facts.

If your opinion is that David Desharnais is terrible at power play face-offs, you are entitled to that opinion. It's wrong, however, and therefore its not longer "as valuable" as the opinion that is actually backed up by facts.

Where are the situational stats that back this up?
 
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FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
20,338
13,058
Toronto, Ontario
Where are the situational stats that back this up?

Are you joking?

Only Jonathan Toews was better in the dot for offensive zone power play face offs? Are you really still disputing this? Desharnais was over 60 percent in this context ... What situational stats do you require before you acknowledge your "opinion" is based on something other than facts?
 

mustardnight*

Registered User
Aug 11, 2011
1,318
0
I'd have to go throught the play-by-play files, don't really have the time to write a script for this for now. I only used those numbers to make the calculation.

http://faceoffs.net/stats/faceoff-percentage

http://faceoffs.net/stats/faceoff-opponents?player=david-desharnais

They don't provide situational stats by opponents for individual players. All you can see is that DD is top 20 in the league in offensive zone faceoffs.

http://faceoffs.net/stats/faceoff-percentage?zone=off

Top 20 you say? Surely that's wrong, that has to be a product of french media bias and Therrien's favouritism only playing him against weaker centres.

Oh wait...
 

Mathletic

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
15,777
407
Ste-Foy
Top 20 you say? Surely that's wrong, that has to be a product of french media bias and Therrien's favouritism only playing him against weaker centres.

Oh wait...

it can also be noted that Plekanec took more offensive zone faceoffs than Desharnais last season.
 

mustardnight*

Registered User
Aug 11, 2011
1,318
0
6.6 vs. 6.5 per game. Please, expand on how significant that is.

Lol please expand on how that number affects the endless whining that took place this year and past years making it seem like DD was taking 90% of the offensive draws.

Please expand on why you thought your comment would actually make his less of an important point.
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,448
35,049
Montreal
Are you joking?

Only Jonathan Toews was better in the dot for offensive zone power play face offs? Are you really still disputing this? Desharnais was over 60 percent in this context ... What situational stats do you require before you acknowledge your "opinion" is based on something other than facts?

To your point I'm wrong.
The facts are there in black and white.
DD is actually far better on PP draws than I expected.
Why is he so inept then. Why does what comes next invariably end up in our own end.
When the game is on the line I want to put my trust in this guy but it seems like every time I do I'm sorely disappointed. Has DD proven to be a huge factor after winning the draw or a non factor?
2nd in % 153rd in pp points.
I don't mind being wrong on a stat but it doesn't change this player's utility overall. IMO

Hopefully this year will be different.
 

Winter Eclipse

Registered User
Nov 28, 2013
3,361
0
New York, NY
Lol please expand on how that number affects the endless whining that took place this year and past years making it seem like DD was taking 90% of the offensive draws.

As a percentage of his total FOs, DD was certainly given ample offensive time.

Please expand on why you thought your comment would actually make his less of an important point.

And what IS this supposedly important point, hmmm? You keep referring to it, but consistently avoid actually articulating it.

Fact is, it was yet another desperate attempt to re-write last season as one in which DD wasn't gifted o-zone heavy time and could only tun it into 48 points. No, last season Pleks took more ozone starts, so HE must have been our #1C, and DD was just doing his job as a #2/#3 C but was subject to hatred and prejudice and bias :nopity:

But hey, maybe I'm wrong! Maybe 0.1 ozone FO / game is a monumentally important difference that completely changes the paradigm we should be viewing DDs deployment through. So please, go ahead and make your case.
 

DangerDave

Mete's Shot
Feb 8, 2015
9,732
5,068
T.O
Name them...can't wait to see it
Name me those hockey skills that make DD a important player

What's the point? I'm clearly not going to change anyone's opinion here. You guys are not going to change the opinions of the people who like him so what's the point? I just stated that you were evaluating the player unfairly and that's it.

I see DD as an OK player. Not great but not bad. He is a Montreal Canadien so I root for him as should everyone on here. I've never met a habs fan not on HF that boos when he makes a nice play or scores so it baffles me why some of the people on here do.

If he can provide some secondary offense this year then I am happy. If he doesn't then I'm not happy with him. But I'll never root against him as long as he is on the team.
 

DangerDave

Mete's Shot
Feb 8, 2015
9,732
5,068
T.O
To your point I'm wrong.
The facts are there in black and white.
DD is actually far better on PP draws than I expected.
Why is he so inept then. Why does what comes next invariably end up in our own end.
When the game is on the line I want to put my trust in this guy but it seems like every time I do I'm sorely disappointed. Has DD proven to be a huge factor after winning the draw or a non factor?
2nd in % 153rd in pp points.
I don't mind being wrong on a stat but it doesn't change this player's utility overall. IMO

Hopefully this year will be different.

Honestly, a lot of it comes down to the coaching when it comes to the powerplay. The whole team struggled and not just DD. The players are told to feed Subban and Markov constantly but that has become predictable. The other team simply anticipates the point pass and if it get's through then they get in Subban's shooting lane.

I'd like to see some shots from the circle with a player crashing in to deflect the puck as well as some behind the net stuff with a hard pass to a man crashing in from the boards and the other winger looking for the rebound. Just need to mix it up a bit instead of always relying on the point shot is all.

The coaching on this team has been horrific and I can't help but think how much better this team would be with Toronto or Washington's staff.
 

pepperMonkey

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
5,254
1,464
Toronto
Honestly, a lot of it comes down to the coaching when it comes to the powerplay. The whole team struggled and not just DD. The players are told to feed Subban and Markov constantly but that has become predictable. The other team simply anticipates the point pass and if it get's through then they get in Subban's shooting lane.

I'd like to see some shots from the circle with a player crashing in to deflect the puck as well as some behind the net stuff with a hard pass to a man crashing in from the boards and the other winger looking for the rebound. Just need to mix it up a bit instead of always relying on the point shot is all.

The coaching on this team has been horrific and I can't help but think how much better this team would be with Toronto or Washington's staff.

Shhh! Don't say such blasphemous things! You know that if DD was replaced by Eller or Galch that we would instantly become one of the top PP teams in the league! It's a well known fact by ALL people on this grand Earth that our PP is inept purely and absolutely because of DD!
 

Nynja*

Guest
To your point I'm wrong.
The facts are there in black and white.
DD is actually far better on PP draws than I expected.
Why is he so inept then. Why does what comes next invariably end up in our own end.
When the game is on the line I want to put my trust in this guy but it seems like every time I do I'm sorely disappointed. Has DD proven to be a huge factor after winning the draw or a non factor?
2nd in % 153rd in pp points.
I don't mind being wrong on a stat but it doesn't change this player's utility overall. IMO

Hopefully this year will be different.

Because he falls on his ass, the scrambled draw leads to the habs barely gaining first possession of the puck, where its immediately lost because they're scrambling trying to gain space and maintain possession, the other team is just trying to control long enough to clear it down the ice, and its subsequently cleared down the ice.

Davey "wins" the draw because the habs "control" it first. Here are Davey's top 20 games in PP TOI
Code:
Date			Opp	G	A	P	FOW	FOL	TOnI	ToffI	TOI%	CF	CF60
									
4/3/2015		N.J	0	0	0	5	1	6.1	6.4	48.8		6	59.1
11/4/2014	CHI	0	0	0	0	2	5.6	1.7	77		6	64.1
4/17/2015	OTT	0	1	1	1	5	5.1	6.2	45.1		12	141.9
1/27/2015	DAL	0	0	0	2	2	4.8	2	70.7		10	124.6
3/26/2015	WPG	0	0	0	1	2	4.5	3.2	58.3		4	53.8
4/19/2015	OTT	0	0	0	2	3	4.4	5.2	46.1		6	81.7
10/27/2014	EDM	0	0	0	3	3	4.4	1.5	75.1		6	81.1
10/13/2014	T.B	0	0	0	4	0	4.3	2.9	59.8		6	84
10/9/2014	WAS	0	0	0	5	0	4.3	2.7	61.2		9	126.8
3/14/2015	NYI	0	0	0	3	2	4.1	3.2	55.8		4	58.8
12/16/2014	CAR	0	0	0	1	0	4.1	3.2	56		7	101.4
4/9/2015		DET	0	0	0	1	3	3.9	2.8	58.7		2	30.7
1/14/2015	CBJ	0	0	0	0	2	3.9	5.2	42.8		5	77.3
1/3/2015		PIT	0	0	0	0	0	3.9	4.2	48		6	92.7
11/13/2014	BOS	0	0	0	4	2	3.9	5.2	42.9		5	77.4
5/9/2015		T.B	0	0	0	3	0	3.7	2.4	60		5	82
4/5/2015		FLA	0	0	0	4	0	3.5	6.2	36.2		2	33.9
11/28/2014	BUF	0	1	1	4	0	3.5	0	100		6	102.6
2/28/2015	TOR	0	0	0	0	3	3.3	2.9	52.9		5	90.9

Says he won 43 draws and lost 30. I dont have access to gamecenter, but perhaps someone who does would be so inclined to see how many of these 43 faceoff wins were scrambles that led to a microsecond of possession gain and subsequently wound up down the ice.

Lets not point out that in those 81.3 minutes of PP time in those 20 games, he's amassed two assists.

Oh, and that 1/14/2015 CBJ game stood out to me, since its one of his lowest TOI% games. What happened that game?

1st Period
03:31 CBJ Kevin Connauton (7) from Jeremy Morin
3rd Period
09:38 CBJ PP — Ryan Johansen (16) from James Wisniewski and Nick Foligno
11:30 MTL PP — Max Pacioretty (19) from Andrei Markov and Brendan Gallagher
14:24 MTL PP — P.K. Subban (9) from Andrei Markov and Alex Galchenyuk
15:23 MTL PP — Max Pacioretty (20) from Tomas Plekanec and Sergei Gonchar


edit: added corsi events. How did Davey have six+ minutes of TOI against the Devils and yet only 6 corsi events were registered in that time with him on the ice despite winning 5 of 6 draws? 5.6 minutes against Chicago and only 6 corsi events? 3.5 minutes against Florida and only TWO corsi events, thats with "winning" all 4 draws.

Please please please someone watch these games.
 
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ColinO

Registered User
Jul 24, 2015
1,723
191
I wonder if anyone has been convinced to change their mind about DD after all this discussion.
 
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