Player Discussion Darnell Nurse

[Raab]

That's fair enough, but that supposed LHD depth goes *poof* if Klefbom continues to be a band-aid, Davidson falls back to earth a bit and settles in as a decent bottom pairing dman, and Reinhart continues to fail to seize the opportunities being given to him.

We have depth there, but IMO it could evaporate very quickly.

Then you sign someone. Tons of middle pairing LHD usually available through UFA. This year for example we could have any one of Campbell, Goligoski, Coburn, Hamhuis, Gunnarsson, and Yandle. You also note that its possible for 3 other players to fail while not identifying theres a probability the Nurse may not improve much if any. My question is if were in the same position next year and Nurse has not improved, now what is he worth? You sure as heck won't get a Hamonic for him, and I doubt you'd even get a middle pairing guy for him.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Then build a decent top 4! Jesus guys. Its possible to build a top 4 without getting the big fish and trading the farm

This is a really weird concept for some, maybe to crazy.

Build a decent, playoff caliber D core by taking advantage of cap strapped team, or being smart in FA. And keep/develop your promising #7 overall pick with upside.

You can have your ok tasting cake and eat it too

Okay we build a decent top 4 and we still are a bottom 5 team in the league.

Teams like NYI and things can get better by getting average top 4 guys on the cheap because they already have a top pairing to help them out. We don't have that. We don't even have 1 top pairing d.

 

[Digger12]

Or if Nurse never fulfills his potential and joins in the long cavalcade of NHL prospects ruined by the Edmonton Oilers.

And here's the thing: even if he fulfills his potential in two or three years, that does nothing to help us out now at a time we need to take a step forward. The reason I keep beating the Nurse for Hamonic drum is that it's a realistic option for immediately improving our D right now, unlike the many other proposed NHL16 deals.

If we already had a half decent top four, we could talk about being patient with Nurse. I don't believe we have the luxury now no matter what his upside is.

I get that, and I've seen you point the sense of urgency out before.

The thing with that is, there is no compelling scenario I can see where you're going to convince the Islanders to trade Hamonic right now, so even if a Hamonic for Nurse trade has a snowball's chance in hell of happening it's not going to happen until the summer.

And if we're waiting that long, then IMO the smarter play would be to package Nurse with one of the "core" guys and make a run for an actual #1 dman that can anchor a blue line, instead of Hamonic who I consider to be more of a vanilla 2 to 3 dman.

It'd be easier for me to stomach losing their top prospect in Nurse if the Oilers were getting an actual difference maker back in return.

 

[Aceboogie]

Okay we build a decent top 4 and we still are a bottom 5 team in the league.

Teams like NYI and things can get better by getting average top 4 guys on the cheap because they already have a top pairing to help them out. We don't have that. We don't even have 1 top pairing d.

Leddy and Boychuck arent average top 4 guys. They are probaly equal to Hamonic actually. Hamonic has been injured for good stretches this season and that D core is still going

Klefbom is damn near top pairing, hell be more than ready next season.

If you build a decent top 4 with our top 6 (which you said was great), then you arent bottom 5

You either need a good top 6 and average D core, or good d core and average top 6. You cant have both unless you are a top 3 team in the league

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

I get that, and I've seen you point the sense of urgency out before.

The thing with that is, there is no compelling scenario I can see where you're going to convince the Islanders to trade Hamonic right now, so even if a Hamonic for Nurse trade has a snowball's chance in hell of happening it's not going to happen until the summer.

And if we're waiting that long, then IMO the smarter play would be to package Nurse with one of the "core" guys and make a run for an actual #1 dman that can anchor a blue line, instead of Hamonic who I consider to be more of a vanilla 2 to 3 dman.

But why would we move Nurse+ for a top pairing guy when nurse could be a top pairing guy! Is essentially the arguement today.

 

[Young Lions*]

Then build a decent top 4! Jesus guys. Its possible to build a top 4 without getting the big fish and trading the farm

Again: I don't consider Hamonic a big fish or trading Nurse for him "selling the farm." Trading prospects for an older, more established player is a legit way to improve your team.

Build a decent, playoff caliber D core by taking advantage of cap strapped team, or being smart in FA. And keep/develop your promising #7 overall pick with upside. Then have your core D develop into a cup contending D core in 2-3 years

You can have your ok tasting cake and eat it too

If it were that easy...

I'd love to get Shattenkirk or Barrie for picks, or sign an effective bunch of UFA D men. But I also recognize that approach has its limitations and own risks. Again,

 

[Aceboogie]

Then you sign someone. Tons of middle pairing LHD usually available through UFA. This year for example we could have any one of Campbell, Goligoski, Coburn, Hamhuis, Gunnarsson, and Yandle. You also note that its possible for 3 other players to fail while not identifying theres a probability the Nurse may not improve much if any. My question is if were in the same position next year and Nurse has not improved, now what is he worth? You sure as heck won't get a Hamonic for him, and I doubt you'd even get a middle pairing guy for him.

Then you take that risk. A lot easier to aqcuire a middle pairing D in trade or FA than it is to land a #1 D

Id put odds that Nurse stagnates as same as odds he turns into a #1.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Leddy and Boychuck arent average top 4 guys. They are probaly equal to Hamonic actually. Hamonic has been injured for good stretches this season and that D core is still going

Klefbom is damn near top pairing, hell be more than ready next season.

If you build a decent top 4 with our top 6 (which you said was great), then you arent bottom 5

You either need a good top 6 and average D core, or good d core and average top 6. You cant have both unless you are a top 3 team in the league

We currently have the following level guys. Who will be in the org next year

Klefbom 3/4
Sekera 3
Davidson 5
Nurse 6/AHL
Reinhart AHL

We do not have a single player that would crack the top pairing of an average dcore without injuries.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Then you take that risk. A lot easier to aqcuire a middle pairing D in trade or FA than it is to land a #1 D

Id put odds that Nurse stagnates as same as odds he turns into a #1.

We have been taking risks for 10 years. Schultz, Fayne, Nikitin, Ference, Belov, Whitney, the list goes on.

 

[Young Lions*]

I get that, and I've seen you point the sense of urgency out before.

The thing with that is, there is no compelling scenario I can see where you're going to convince the Islanders to trade Hamonic right now, so even if a Hamonic for Nurse trade has a snowball's chance in hell of happening it's not going to happen until the summer.

And if we're waiting that long, then IMO the smarter play would be to package Nurse with one of the "core" guys and make a run for an actual #1 dman that can anchor a blue line, instead of Hamonic who I consider to be more of a vanilla 2 to 3 dman.

It'd be easier for me to stomach losing their top prospect in Nurse if the Oilers were getting an actual difference maker back in return.

I agree with this, sure. But I don't see much chance of that actual #1D man shaking loose anywhere this summer unless, I dunno, Beregvin in Montreal loses his damn mind. I'm just working within the realm of what we know.

 

[Aceboogie]

Again: I don't consider Hamonic a big fish or trading Nurse for him "selling the farm." Trading prospects for an older, more established player is a legit way to improve your team.



If it were that easy...

I'd love to get Shattenkirk or Barrie for picks, or sign an effective bunch of UFA D men. But I also recognize that approach has its limitations and own risks. Again,

Weve never had a D prospect like Nurse. This is no ordinary prospect. If the 2013 draft wasnt so stacked, he would have went top 5 in most drafts from 2010-2015.

Acquiring solid top 4 D really isnt that tough. You just have to be smart and have good scouting staff. We watched as MacT let top 4 D go one by one to new teams (and he even let one go). You just have to have to interest to step one and catch one going by

Vatanen is in prime, prime stealing territory. Hes young, hes experienced (181 games), hes a RHD, hes a puck mover, he can actually put up points and move the puck. But hes also an RFA and the Ducks have Lindholm to sign. Hes rumored to be on the block and hes yet to have a major break out year. His price tag is not through the roof

Why is he not being keyed in on? Maybe because hes small? (dumb reason, hes succeeded in west)

If Vatanen is traded and gets by us, Ill have lost major faith in Chia

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Weve never had a D prospect like Nurse. This is no ordinary prospect. If the 2013 draft wasnt so stacked, he would have went top 5 in most drafts from 2010-2015.

Acquiring solid top 4 D really isnt that tough. You just have to be smart and have good scouting staff. We watched as MacT let top 4 D go one by one to new teams (and he even let one go). You just have to have to interest to step one and catch one going by

Vatanen is in prime, prime stealing territory. Hes young, hes experienced (181 games), hes a RHD, hes a puck mover, he can actually put up points and move the puck. But hes also an RFA and the Ducks have Lindholm to sign. Hes rumored to be on the block and hes yet to have a major break out year. His price tag is not through the roof

Why is he not being keyed in on? Maybe because hes small? (dumb reason, hes succeeded in west)

If Vatanen is traded and gets by us, Ill have lost major faith in Chia

I wont. Players like Vatanen rarely get over in division without an overpay.

 

[Aceboogie]

We have been taking risks for 10 years. Schultz, Fayne, Nikitin, Ference, Belov, Whitney, the list goes on.

What? those arent risks?

Schultz was signed as friggen most hyped college UFA ever. Nikitin/Ference were dumb risks from the get go. Belov never got a fair shake. Whitney was a good player before injury, cant control that

Apart from Schultz and MAYBE Belov, none of these guys had upside

Lets not mistake dumb MacT/Tambo decisions as actual smart attempted moves

 

[Beerfish]

Nurse and Klefbom should not be available in any trade unless we are talking about a package that brings us back a true, bonifide #1 guy. It makes zero sense to me to trade one dman for a slightly better more proven one that still leaves us with not enough good dmen.

 

[Aceboogie]

I wont. Players like Vatanen rarely get over in division without an overpay.

Like what? Who is a comparable that went for overpay.

This overpay division thing is getting rediculous. Teams are trading freely with other teams in the division all the time. Where are people getting this idea that only overpays happen in division?

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

What? those arent risks?

Schultz was signed as friggen most hyped college UFA ever. Nikitin/Ference were dumb risks from the get go. Belov never got a fair shake. Whitney was a good player before injury, can control that

Apart from Schultz and MAYBE Belov, none of these guys had upside

Lets not mistake dumb MacT/Tambo decisions as actual smart attempted moves

We have never gone after a legit top pairing guy. Always middling middle pair guys who fall apart in the pressure here.

That's what you are asking us to do.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

We currently have the following level guys. Who will be in the org next year

Klefbom 3/4
Sekera 3
Davidson 5
Nurse 6/AHL
Reinhart AHL

We do not have a single player that would crack the top pairing of an average dcore without injuries.

Klefbom's better than Sekera at evens, IMHO. I'd say he's a 2/3.

I go to sleep every night praying that LaLeggia can come out of nowhere and be our Gostisbehere

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Klefbom's better than Sekera at evens, IMHO. I'd say he's a 2/3.

I go to sleep every night praying that LaLeggia can come out of nowhere and be our Gostisbehere

I have Klefbom lower cause it might take him time to get good again.

 

[Digger12]

I agree with this, sure. But I don't see much chance of that actual #1D man shaking loose anywhere this summer unless, I dunno, Beregvin in Montreal loses his damn mind. I'm just working within the realm of what we know.

Yeah, I know. That's a valid viewpoint too.

 

[Aceboogie]

We have never gone after a legit top pairing guy. Always middling middle pair guys who fall apart in the pressure here.

That's what you are asking us to do.

Weve never succeeded in getting a top pairing guy, but weve made runs at them. Weve also ignored numerous top 4 D being moved around the league for relatively good prices that we didnt deem worth it to do

Top pairing D rarely move in the NHL.

Its like trying to get a date with Jessica Alba when their is a cute girl and the bar down the street waiting to be asked out.

Build a good D core with smart moves

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

BACK ON TOPIC

Nurse is 2-3 years away from even being in discussion for top pairing. And 1-2 years away from being a legit second pairing guy..

When you compare him to Klefbom or Davidson.

Nurse got worse as the season has gone on and less minutes hasn't fixed that.

Davidson and Klefbom improved as the season went on.

For Nurse to dominate at this level too he needs to get bigger and stronger so he can physically dominate like in junior. Until then he will struggle.

 

[Musashi]

Nurse and Klefbom should not be available in any trade unless we are talking about a package that brings us back a true, bonifide #1 guy. It makes zero sense to me to trade one dman for a slightly better more proven one that still leaves us with not enough good dmen.

I get the sentiment and a lot of people will agree with you but stating that a guy like Hamonic is only slightly better than Nurse is flat out wrong and not a good way to support your opinion.

 

[Canovin]

Klefbom's better than Sekera at evens, IMHO. I'd say he's a 2/3.

I go to sleep every night praying that LaLeggia can come out of nowhere and be our Gostisbehere

What are you talking about? Oilers' Gostisbehere is Erik Gustafsson.

 

[Raab]

Then you take that risk. A lot easier to aqcuire a middle pairing D in trade or FA than it is to land a #1 D

Id put odds that Nurse stagnates as same as odds he turns into a #1.

I put the odds he stagnates infinitely higher then the odds he become a #1 given what we know of the player and history. How many dmen have walked into the league and looked great at 20 only to regress? I'm not saying it will happen that Nurse doesn't get better, but theres literally no chance Nurse becomes a #1 dman. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it won't happen. At best he's a good #2 who's tough and can shut down the best players in the world. Which is just slightly better then what Hamonic is right now.

 

[Digger12]

BACK ON TOPIC

Nurse is 2-3 years away from even being in discussion for top pairing. And 1-2 years away from being a legit second pairing guy..

When you compare him to Klefbom or Davidson.

Nurse got worse as the season has gone on and less minutes hasn't fixed that.

Davidson and Klefbom improved as the season went on.

For Nurse to dominate at this level too he needs to get bigger and stronger so he can physically dominate like in junior. Until then he will struggle.

The only thing I would say to this is how much is Nurse's struggles due to Klefbom missing nearly half the year?

It seemed like just as Klefbom was starting to turn the corner and become more comfortable handling the tough matchups and heavier minutes, his body broke.

IMO that's been a big reason why we're seeing Nurse stumble.