I'm a big Heinen fan. I think he's misunderstood because a lot of fans don't see the subtle things he does that make him such a heady two-way player. He's not on Bergeron's level but he has that kind of game and makes a lot of those Bergeron-esque decisions. I think he'd make a great bumper on the 2nd PP. I think he's going to become a fairly consistent 60 point guy and I think he hits on that next year.
And all of that is why it pains me to say I would consider trading him this summer. I mean, feel free to convince me otherwise, but I just think Johansson is a more dynamic player, and I really believe this lineup needs more physical presence in the middle6.
I know a lot of people don't think hitting matters. I know analytics make that claim, but what's the stat for letting the other team get to a puck first? What's the stat for throwing the puck into the Nzone because you're too rushed to make a good decisions? What's the stat for throwing the puck into the stands because you hear footsteps? What's the stat for wearing the other team down over 7 games? I don't think hitting is the ultimate X-factor. Columbus outhit Boston and we won that series... but it can be a factor and I thought it was in several of STL's wins.
Okay, you have to give to get- who is the FA rugged wing that isn't lost with puck on his stick that we could sign? Micheal Ferland? The UFA group is small, so it would need to be a trade. Brandon Tanev? Would you trade Heinen for either of them?
I considered the age thing, but if they keep the term to under 4 years on Johansson then he's walking at 32. That's not so old. I know Heinen is about to turn 24 and enter his prime years, so I'll concede it's a fair point and a good argument. Still I don't see Heinen ever slicing through defenses the way Johansson did this postseason... and that ability is rare, and expensive.
With regard to your question about swapping Heinen for a Ferland or a Tanev my answer would be yes. I would trade down on points to trade up on snarl. If this was a team that was short on talent I wouldn't make that offer, but if they sign Johansson they'll be going into next year with 8 skilled forwards in their top9 and 3 defensemen who could put up as many points as Heinen did this year.
I also look at this past playoffs and I hear people saying a guy like Anderson didn't do much with 3 points in 10 games but A) Heinen only had 8 points in 24 games so the pace isn't that different and B) I'd take that production if it meant getting a guy who could put a hurt on the other team's best players and create some of those 'uh-oh' moments I mentioned earlier.
Fair enough I can certainly see the logic in moving him for some size and grit if management feels they need to go that way, and I thinkvHeinen is a player that any number of teams would love to have. I'd hate to see him go, though. I think if he goes, in a couple of years we regret it in a big way, especially once the core is winding down.
Quoting this from the last thread.GloryDaze4877 said:Johansson played his way out of Boston IMO. As much as I would like him to return, he’s going to get an offer too rich for Boston’s blood.
Is there some reason why the B’s wouldn’t want to add a player with some “jam” to go WITH Coyle and Heinen on that 3rd line (instead of dealing 43 and having two holes to fill)?? I have no idea if he’s available, but I would target a guy like Miles Wood.
If Jojo turns out to be too expensive I’d replace him with Anders Bjork, still on his ELC. Then move Heinen for a bigger RW for Coyle’s line. Virtanen, as suggested, could be a good fit. That would be a trade of players yet to achieve their potential.
Don't mean to derail the conversation from Heinen but:If Jojo turns out to be too expensive I’d replace him with Anders Bjork, still on his ELC. Then move Heinen for a bigger RW for Coyle’s line. Virtanen, as suggested, could be a good fit. That would be a trade of players yet to achieve their potential.
He seems to get nailed a lot,when you’re a fairy small guy you need to be a little more slippery out there,he kind of scares me I literally think he is going to get killed almost every time he is on the ice.Don't mean to derail the conversation from Heinen but:
I've got the gut feeling (for a few reasons) that Bjork will never reach his potential in the NHL. One of which is that he can't seem to stay healthy (uninjured) and that IMO he seemed like a bit too fragile for the big league game in the ones he played in. I think that he's been passed by and will continue to get passed by other prospects.
I'm a big Heinen fan. I think he's misunderstood because a lot of fans don't see the subtle things he does that make him such a heady two-way player. He's not on Bergeron's level but he has that kind of game and makes a lot of those Bergeron-esque decisions. I think he'd make a great bumper on the 2nd PP. I think he's going to become a fairly consistent 60 point guy and I think he hits on that next year.
And all of that is why it pains me to say I would consider trading him this summer. I mean, feel free to convince me otherwise, but I just think Johansson is a more dynamic player, and I really believe this lineup needs more physical presence in the middle6.
I know a lot of people don't think hitting matters. I know analytics make that claim, but what's the stat for letting the other team get to a puck first? What's the stat for throwing the puck into the Nzone because you're too rushed to make a good decisions? What's the stat for throwing the puck into the stands because you hear footsteps? What's the stat for wearing the other team down over 7 games? I don't think hitting is the ultimate X-factor. Columbus outhit Boston and we won that series... but it can be a factor and I thought it was in several of STL's wins.
I'm a big Heinen fan. I think he's misunderstood because a lot of fans don't see the subtle things he does that make him such a heady two-way player. He's not on Bergeron's level but he has that kind of game and makes a lot of those Bergeron-esque decisions. I think he'd make a great bumper on the 2nd PP. I think he's going to become a fairly consistent 60 point guy and I think he hits on that next year.
And all of that is why it pains me to say I would consider trading him this summer. I mean, feel free to convince me otherwise, but I just think Johansson is a more dynamic player, and I really believe this lineup needs more physical presence in the middle6.
I know a lot of people don't think hitting matters. I know analytics make that claim, but what's the stat for letting the other team get to a puck first? What's the stat for throwing the puck into the Nzone because you're too rushed to make a good decisions? What's the stat for throwing the puck into the stands because you hear footsteps? What's the stat for wearing the other team down over 7 games? I don't think hitting is the ultimate X-factor. Columbus outhit Boston and we won that series... but it can be a factor and I thought it was in several of STL's wins.
I considered the age thing, but if they keep the term to under 4 years on Johansson then he's walking at 32. That's not so old. I know Heinen is about to turn 24 and enter his prime years, so I'll concede it's a fair point and a good argument. Still I don't see Heinen ever slicing through defenses the way Johansson did this postseason... and that ability is rare, and expensive.
With regard to your question about swapping Heinen for a Ferland or a Tanev my answer would be yes. I would trade down on points to trade up on snarl. If this was a team that was short on talent I wouldn't make that offer, but if they sign Johansson they'll be going into next year with 8 skilled forwards in their top9 and 3 defensemen who could put up as many points as Heinen did this year.
I also look at this past playoffs and I hear people saying a guy like Anderson didn't do much with 3 points in 10 games but A) Heinen only had 8 points in 24 games so the pace isn't that different and B) I'd take that production if it meant getting a guy who could put a hurt on the other team's best players and create some of those 'uh-oh' moments I mentioned earlier.
Now, on to the stuff I disagree with, lol. If you honestly believe that Heinen is going to be a 60 pt guy (your words not mine)...why the f*** would you be moving him in order to add a Tanev or Ferland type?
Also, where has this idea come from that in order to add a more physical presence, Heinen (and his sub $3m salary) is what needs to be sacrificed?
Virtanen is a 6th overall pick and is only 22. Younger Chris Wagner? Wagner just had a career year with 19 points at 28 years old. Virtanen's rookie year at 18 was better than any year from Wagner prior to this season. Like come on, this is not a reasonable comparison at all. Look I get that some of the people wanting to trade Heinen are completely irrational & their criticism of him isn't based on reality, but making irrational arguments in response just makes this whole board a shit-show. Comparing Virtanen to Wagner is not a good faith argument.One is a Top 10 pick that has underachieved from the start. The other is a 4th round pick that was one of the steals of his draft year.
Virtanen has a “breakout” year (supposedly) by netting 15g/10a in 14:49 TOI...while Heinen’s “down” year was 11g/23a in a minute less TOI per game.
And people can’t wait to make that deal?
What is wrong with people?
Virtanen is a younger version of Chris Wagner...that has about 100 less hits.
I would love to see a Virtanen/Woods type with Coyle and Heinen, not replacing him.
agree with a lot of this. I think 74 & 46 need to be split up because both guys are just so damn streaky & when both guys hit a cold streak at the same time it can literally cost you a series.When I said I think Heinen could put up 60 points, I didn't mean with us. They just don't use him enough. Among the regulars, only Acciari played less (4 seconds less) than Heinen in the playoffs. If he played with Marchand and Bergeron full time, if he was the bumper on the 2nd PP... then I think he could do it. But the way we use him, and for what he brings in that role, I think someone with snarl would be more valuable. I think a guy like Anderson or Ferland if healthy, would have helped more in the playoffs than Heinen. Going forward, I would trade down 10-15 points in order to add 150 hits.
We have a history of moving guys because we like other players better. They moved Vatrano without finding out what he could do. They let Smith go because they liked other guys better. I think they're going to do the same thing with Heinen, and I see him going somewhere else, getting top6 minutes and PP time and producing.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I came to that opinion after looking at a series of factors...
1) I really want to keep Johansson. He was such a force in the playoffs, and he's such a dynamic player. I think he's worth investing $5m in if they can keep the term to 4 years or less.
2) I think DeBrusk plays better with speed on the opposite wing. He had some chemistry with Kuhlman and I think he could fit well with Bjork too. I also think it's important to have some young legs and ELC's in the lineup.
3) It is VERY hard to find a RW that works well with 74-46. They've tried heavy guys, they've tried high-skill guys and it's always a tough fit. I know Heinen is better than Kuhlman or Bjork at the moment, but I don't think Heinen is a better fit with DeBrusk. Heinen worked well with Mojo and Coyle, but if Kuhlman plays with DeBrusk and Heinen plays with Mojo then we're back to not having any room to add a RW'er.
4) Johansson, DeBrusk, Kuhlman: that's 3 of the 4 middle6 wing slots and we've yet to add some size and snarl.
5) Lastly, Heinen is a guy who I think would have a lot of value, especially if someone sees him like we do. If they strike out in free agency, then he could be a good chip to dangle.
The lineup I'd like to see is...
63 -37 - 88
90 - 46 - RW
74 - 13 - 83
Fwiw, if you're right, and they can't afford Mojo, then of course I'd want to keep Heinen. I'd even lobby for the same lineup, but with Heinen in place of Mojo. He's not as dynamic as 90 but I think Heinen and Krejci would have a better chance of gelling with a new RW than DeBrusk and Krejci.