Confirmed with Link: Danny DeKeyser re-signed 6 years 30 million

[Run the Jewels]

Barrie re ups with Colorado for four years x 5.5 million.

50 point defenseman that is one year younger than DD.

DD has 234 games played.

Barrie has 264 games played.

I feel like those two should have their contracts switched.

That's a great deal for Colorado. It's interesting, there was a lots of talk of Barrie potentially being shipped out of town. The Wings and DeKeyser's camp both agreed they wanted to get a long term deal done. Barries ends up signing a shorter deal for barely more AAV. I felt at the time DD signed the AAV was too high for such a long deal. There was no drop in AAV which is what Holland always opts for in exchange for giving out way too much term and the typical NMC/NTC.

The Avs have to be thrilled with that contract for a 50 point d-man. Holland caves yet again, at least this time it was for a guy who is going to be part of the core for the next 5+ years.

 

[Frk It]

Barrie re ups with Colorado for four years x 5.5 million.

50 point defenseman that is one year younger than DD.

DD has 234 games played.

Barrie has 264 games played.

I feel like those two should have their contracts switched.

Dude.... It's not the same situation. At all. Tired of going through this with people on here, but here it goes.

Colorado bought 1 UFA year with Barrie. We bought 5 UFA years with Dekeyser.

So Barrie's deal was 75% RFA years -- 3/4

While Dekeyser's deal is 80% UFA years -- 5/6

So of course Barrie's deal looks better. Cheaper to buy RFA years.

And Barrie becomes a UFA at 28/29 and can cash the **** out if he wants to.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Plus/minus is a **** stat.

Overall? Sure. Specific to a single team? Not at all.

Barrie's future deal doesn't invalidate the fact that for what he brings his contract is better.

He had 8 more ES points than DK, who allegedly is offense-less. He's not as good defensively and is less physical.

8 more ES points? Well over the last two seasons he has literally twice as many points. 51 vs 102. So, cherry pick all you want, but Barrie brings twice the points and similar defense for 500k more.

Well, when Barrie gets a ton of points on the PP and DK gets relatively few, it makes it easier for one to delude themselves if they so choose.

And if you think Barrie's defense is similar... well, there you go then. It's similar in that he skates backwards while he does it, occasionally, but beyond that... uh, no. Not so much.

That's how an offensive player can still be a huge minus. Not only is he giving up as much as he's scoring, he's giving up more than that.

 

[jkutswings]

You're probably underestimating the potential in our system. Larkin could be a legit #1C next year or within 2-3 years for sure, it would surprise no one (except maybe you). Mantha and AA are both on the verge of breaking through, Svechnikov is a guy that has potential to make a quick transition. And that's completely disregarding the fact that we may not have seen the best from Sheahan, Jurco, Tatar etc.

On D we have less potential but other than a trade, there's still the chance Russo, XO or Sproul turns into something. Saarijarvi and Cholowski may be getting there within 2-3 years.

We don't need tons of guys to break out. 1-2 forwards and 1 d-man taking a big step forward would go a long way.


That is the least of our issues. If some kids break out we are in a great position. Worst case we would need to bite the bullet on some buy-outs or cap-retention deals, but those kids would still be on solid deals given their RFA status so we'd be fine.

You said that if some kids break out, Detroit could be a very good team.

Other that Larkin, what you're saying above is that some kids could make the team, which is very different than breaking out.

For Detroit to be a very good team - as in, have a real shot to contend for a Cup - they need a top 2 defenseman, a top 4 defenseman, and a first line forward, in addition to Larkin continuing to grow, and Mrazek finding his consistency.

So please, enlighten me as to how AA and Mantha will fill that void in the next 2-3 years, and how a handful of defensive prospects (that might or might not crack the lineup) will transform the blueline.

 

[Frk It]

Overall? Sure. Specific to a single team? Not at all.



He had 8 more ES points than DK, who allegedly is offense-less. He's not as good defensively and is less physical.



Well, when Barrie gets a ton of points on the PP and DK gets relatively few, it makes it easier for one to delude themselves if they so choose.

And if you think Barrie's defense is similar... well, there you go then. It's similar in that he skates backwards while he does it, occasionally, but beyond that... uh, no. Not so much.

That's how an offensive player can still be a huge minus. Not only is he giving up as much as he's scoring, he's giving up more than that.

Barrie is a far superior player. Save the ES debate on this one.

Doesn't even matter HiHD because these two contracts aren't comparable with how different the UFA/RFA breakdown is, and Barrie is going to cash out big time in 4 years. Colorado is rumored to have issues with getting guys to sign long term.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Barrie is a far superior player.

Nonsense. Far different, sure.

 

[Frk It]

Nonsense. Far different, sure.

Different in a way that decides Norris trophies and higher value contracts.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Overall? Sure. Specific to a single team? Not at all.



He had 8 more ES points than DK, who allegedly is offense-less. He's not as good defensively and is less physical.



Well, when Barrie gets a ton of points on the PP and DK gets relatively few, it makes it easier for one to delude themselves if they so choose.

And if you think Barrie's defense is similar... well, there you go then. It's similar in that he skates backwards while he does it, occasionally, but beyond that... uh, no. Not so much.

That's how an offensive player can still be a huge minus. Not only is he giving up as much as he's scoring, he's giving up more than that.

Maybe DK doesn't get time on the PP because he isn't well-suited for the PP? Or should we just give him extra points because maybe if he was put in those situations he would produce just as much?

 

[Ezekial]

Barrie had 3 RFA years.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Maybe DK doesn't get time on the PP because he isn't well-suited for the PP? Or should we just give him extra points because maybe if he was put in those situations he would produce just as much?

No, you shouldn't. But you also shouldn't just say "Barrie has 50 points and DDK has 30, so Barrie is way better when one guy gets a ton of PP time and was generally out on the power play with Nathan MacKinnon and Gabriel Landeskog where Danny doesn't get as much PP time because the Wings have been using 4 forwards and Kronner/Green for the most part.

Also, the Wings whole system the past couple years has been to grime the game up and try to win games 2-1. Colorado's has been "we have a bunch of offensive horses, let's get to it and maybe Varlamov can keep us in it."

Barrie is a better player than DeKeyser and this contract is a better value... but he's not another echelon higher.

 

[jkutswings]

And when exactly did power play points suddenly become worthless, and even strength points become the end-all, be-all of measuring defensemen? Last I checked, they each count for 1.000 on the score sheet.

DeKeyser is in a bad spot in terms of supporting cast and usage, but even factoring those in, Barrie is, if nothing else, a more valuable player in terms of what different attributes are valued in the NHL today.

Comparing contracts, Colorado got better value than Detroit did.

 

[Claypool]

Comparing contracts, Colorado got better value than Detroit did.

In the short term, yes.

 

[SoupGuru]

And when exactly did power play points suddenly become worthless, and even strength points become the end-all, be-all of measuring defensemen? Last I checked, they each count for 1.000 on the score sheet.

DeKeyser is in a bad spot in terms of supporting cast and usage, but even factoring those in, Barrie is, if nothing else, a more valuable player in terms of what different attributes are valued in the NHL today.

Comparing contracts, Colorado got better value than Detroit did.

Because, ideally, you're not playing too much defense on the PP. So to me, the more interesting question for defenseman is "Can you turn defense into offense? Can you turn the puck around when it comes into your zone?"

There are no great metrics to measure defensemen with. To me, even strength points are a better measure of a defenseman's offensive capabilities than power play points. Not ideal, but useful with context.

 

[Frk It]

Comparing contracts, Colorado got better value than Detroit did.

A contract that is 3/4 RFA years vs. a contract that is 5/6 UFA years.

so.... yeah. As to be expected.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Comparing contracts, Colorado got better value than Detroit did.

Yeah, if you were to try to trade either player Barrie would have no shortage of interest. How many teams are gonna pony up for DeKeyser? Not that the Wings would ever trade a roster player, but I think there'd be much stronger interest in Barrie, UFA/RFA years notwithstanding.

 

[Ezekial]

If DDK signed a 4 year deal with 3 RFA years he's looking at like a 4 year 18 million dollar deal (4.5AAV)- 4, 4.5, 4.5, 5

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Because, ideally, you're not playing too much defense on the PP. So to me, the more interesting question for defenseman is "Can you turn defense into offense? Can you turn the puck around when it comes into your zone?"

There are no great metrics to measure defensemen with. To me, even strength points are a better measure of a defenseman's offensive capabilities than power play points. Not ideal, but useful with context.

If a player cannot be utilized in a system (power play) that plays to offensive strengths, how much offensive talent does that player have?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yeah, if you were to try to trade either player Barrie would have no shortage of interest. How many teams are gonna pony up for DeKeyser? Not that the Wings would ever trade a roster player, but I think there'd be much stronger interest in Barrie, UFA/RFA years notwithstanding.

But in their situation, they probably HAVE to trade him in 2-3 years or very much run the risk of losing him for nothing when this contract expires. I think it's shortsighted to call it a great deal for Colorado. Looks great now but Colorado's not a contender in the next year or two anyway.

 

[Bench]

A contract that is 3/4 RFA years vs. a contract that is 5/6 UFA years.

so.... yeah. As to be expected.

Even as not the biggest fan of the DeKeyser deal (again, term!), I think you've summed it up well. Barrie is undoubtedly the more valuable defender, but he had less leverage than DeKeyser.

If a player cannot be utilized in a system (power play) that plays to offensive strengths, how much offensive talent does that player have?

I'll never understand the obsession with only comparing even strength production, as if powerplay points don't matter. Or as if the team being offensively gifted doesn't immediately play into that. If DeKeyser is a solution even strength, somebody forgot to tell the Red Wings. Because the Wings were 25th in 5 on 5 goals.

There also doesn't seem to be any real correlation between big blueline powerplay producers and dwindling ES production. Burns lead the league with 30 PP points, and San Jose was 9th in ES production. Letang was 2nd with 27 PP points, and Pittsburgh was 4th. Of course Burns and Letang were also #2 and #3 respectively in ES production as well, so maybe those guys just put up a lot of points all the damn time.

DeKeyser was the 49th defender in ES production. Given his role, that's not bad. But I don't see why we need to erase points from other defenders to somehow prop up our boy. Being able to run a powerplay is a huge asset and wins games. DeKeyser doesn't do that, and as a consequence, he's not a complete player.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, if you were to try to trade either player Barrie would have no shortage of interest. How many teams are gonna pony up for DeKeyser? Not that the Wings would ever trade a roster player, but I think there'd be much stronger interest in Barrie, UFA/RFA years notwithstanding.

Ok?

Trade value is irrelevant. Contract value is pretty damn irrelevant.

Barrie is a really good player and Colorado got him for a decent price.

And when it comes to contract price, you can't say UFA/RFA years nonwithstanding. It doesn't work that way. That plays a gigantic role in the valuation of a deal.

Again, comparing DeKeyser's deal to Barrie's deal is just another way for people to bash the hell out of Holland for something he doesn't deserve bashing for. The two players aren't comparables. The contracts aren't comparables.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Even as not the biggest fan of the DeKeyser deal (again, term!), I think you've summed it up well. Barrie is undoubtedly the more valuable defender, but he had less leverage than DeKeyser.



I'll never understand the obsession with only comparing even strength production, as if powerplay points don't matter. Or as if the team being offensively gifted doesn't immediately play into that. If DeKeyser is a solution even strength, somebody forgot to tell the Red Wings. Because the Wings were 25th in 5 on 5 goals.

There also doesn't seem to be any real correlation between big blueline powerplay producers and dwindling ES production. Burns lead the league with 30 PP points, and San Jose was 9th in ES production. Letang was 2nd with 27 PP points, and Pittsburgh was 4th. Of course Burns and Letang were also #2 and #3 respectively in ES production as well, so maybe those guys just put up a lot of points all the damn time.

DeKeyser was the 49th defender in ES production. Given his role, that's not bad. But I don't see why we need to erase points from other defenders to somehow prop up our boy. Being able to run a powerplay is a huge asset and wins games. DeKeyser doesn't do that, and as a consequence, he's not a complete player.

I was saying it more because some of the argument was that Barrie had double the points that DeKeyser did, so by god, he's a massive value compared to our stinky, overpaid Danny D. Yes, power play points count... but when one guy gets plenty of PP opportunities and the other doesn't, the one who gets all the time SHOULD outscore him by a lot.

 

[Frk It]

I'll never understand the obsession with only comparing even strength production, as if powerplay points don't matter. Or as if the team being offensively gifted doesn't immediately play into that. If DeKeyser is a solution even strength, somebody forgot to tell the Red Wings. Because the Wings were 25th in 5 on 5 goals.

It's ridiculous. I could give you 100 examples of defenseman with equivalent ES production that are no where near the same caliber of player. Call up Joe Sakic and tell him we want to do Dekeyser for Barrie straight up. He will laugh in your face.

Being able to play and produce on the PP has value associated to it. A lot, actually.



Kid is a top 10 offensive defenseman and this league IMO, and just turned 25.

Even as not the biggest fan of the DeKeyser deal (again, term!), I think you've summed it up well. Barrie is undoubtedly the more valuable defender, but he had less leverage than DeKeyser.

It's just simple economics. Buying years where everyone could compete for your services is significantly more expensive than years where they could not.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If a player cannot be utilized in a system (power play) that plays to offensive strengths, how much offensive talent does that player have?

I somewhat agree with this. However, with the Wings last year, it kinda doesn't work.

DeKeyser was not going to be on the PP above Mike Green and Nick Kronwall (he was injured and sucked, so DD did get some time). And due to the Wings new system of utilizing a guy like Richards or Tatar at the opposite point, DD wasn't gonna get tons of opportunities due to strategic decisions.

I'm not going to hammer DD's offensive capabilities when he's behind an obviously superior offensive D and a guy who at the least was and who is still a key leader on the team.

 

[Bench]

I was saying it more because some of the argument was that Barrie had double the points that DeKeyser did, so by god, he's a massive value compared to our stinky, overpaid Danny D. Yes, power play points count... but when one guy gets plenty of PP opportunities and the other doesn't, the one who gets all the time SHOULD outscore him by a lot.

Massive value? Maybe not. But significantly more valuable? I think so.

It's an academic point. The contracts are different due to their timing and years covered. DeKeyser was on a value deal, and now he's not. Barrie will experience that, too, albeit later.

 

[izlez]

Sooooo...


...why are we using point production to compare an offensive defenseman to a defensive defenseman?