Prospect Info: Daniel Sprong Progress

[Peat]

One has to wonder how a GM can be so sure that a prospect will make the team next year when his coach decided he shouldn't play in the playoffs at all this year. We could ice the exact same forward roster next year, if we chose.

Did Sprong just immediately get better as soon as the playoffs ended?
Is Sully getting a toy taken away?
Did Sully and JR decide to give the whole returning group enough rope for this year, but the disappointing performance from some of the supporting cast coupled with the loss was the red line?

Thinking a player is good enough to slot right into a team halfway through a hard-fought playoff series and thinking a player is good enough to keep his spot in the team after a training camp are two different things in my book and I think that's how the team was looking at them too.

That said, I think that yes, some guys have run out of rope and there's going to be some wingers going out too.

I'd also point out its going to be pretty hard to ice the exact same forward roster once we'd paid all our RFAs - there's a strong chance of a minor cap casualty there.

 

[NMK11]

One has to wonder how a GM can be so sure that a prospect will make the team next year when his coach decided he shouldn't play in the playoffs at all this year. We could ice the exact same forward roster next year, if we chose.

Did Sprong just immediately get better as soon as the playoffs ended?
Is Sully getting a toy taken away?
Did Sully and JR decide to give the whole returning group enough rope for this year, but the disappointing performance from some of the supporting cast coupled with the loss was the red line?

I think this is going to be a big part of it. JR makes his moves, and at this point we dont have many prospects to trade away anymore. If he wants to upgrade, itll likely have to be a roster player and we have more valuable pieces up front.

Your last point of a disappointing supporting cast these playoffs is also likely eating at him, but I dont expect that is the primary motivator.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

JR seems to talk about Sprong staying in the AHL as the plan all along this season to develop him to be a better player for when he does get a regular spot.

And that was the plan I think. Billy G liked how his dev was coming in WBS. Good bad or indifferent I have to wonder whatHCMS is going to do with him moving forward. Pretty sure JR thinks he should be in the opening day lineup.

 

[Shockmaster]

And that was the plan I think. Billy G liked how his dev was coming in WBS. Good bad or indifferent I have to wonder whatHCMS is going to do with him moving forward. Pretty sure JR thinks he should be in the opening day lineup.

If Rutherford wants Sprong on the roster for next season, he can always remove the 2 guys who Sullivan might want over Sprong - Sheary and Simon.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

If Rutherford wants Sprong on the roster for next season, he can always remove the 2 guys who Sullivan might want over Sprong - Sheary and Simon.

Not going to lie, I will be shocked if both are gone. Sheary I could see, but Simon is a depth guy that would probably clear waivers.

 

[Shockmaster]

Not going to lie, I will be shocked if both are gone. Sheary I could see, but Simon is a depth guy that would probably clear waivers.

I would hope Rutherford doesn't over-value Simon like that. As you said, he's a depth guy. If they let him walk or lose him to waivers, there will be plenty of other available players to fill that role. It's less likely the coaching staff would show favoritism with his replacement.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

I would hope Rutherford doesn't over-value Simon like that. As you said, he's a depth guy. If they let him walk or lose him to waivers, there will be plenty of other available players to fill that role. It's less likely the coaching staff would show favoritism with his replacement.

I hope he doesn't either. Sheary, I think, has some value on the market and Simon not so much...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

JR seems to talk about Sprong staying in the AHL as the plan all along this season to develop him to be a better player for when he does get a regular spot.

Right. But besides the obvious problem with making a determination like that independently of actual in-season performance - which would potentially prioritize Sprong's development path over icing the best possible team - Sprong couldn't do any more developing in the AHL this season. His development there was over, and his standard of AHL play was high enough for JR to state that he will be on the team next year, which would necessitate bouncing a present roster forward from the line-up.

JR could have said that Sprong looked great in the AHL this year but had to earn a spot next camp. He didn't.

Thinking a player is good enough to slot right into a team halfway through a hard-fought playoff series and thinking a player is good enough to keep his spot in the team after a training camp are two different things in my book and I think that's how the team was looking at them too.

That said, I think that yes, some guys have run out of rope and there's going to be some wingers going out too.

I'd also point out its going to be pretty hard to ice the exact same forward roster once we'd paid all our RFAs - there's a strong chance of a minor cap casualty there.

If JR's confident Sprong is good enough to usurp a player next fall based on what he's seen from him in the AHL, I don't see how the same argument couldn't have applied these playoffs when we had no shortage of passengers who weren't contributing. Better is better. It seems the Pens gave their established minor cogs a little too much rope.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I also think that anyone writing Simon off at this point is just pinching steaming hot takes.

He was rookie who scored on pace for 30 points, and he'll be dirt cheap for the next few years. He's not the guy you should be looking to move to open up space.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I also think that anyone writing Simon off at this point is just pinching steaming hot takes.

He was rookie who scored on pace for 30 points, and he'll be dirt cheap for the next few years. He's not the guy you should be looking to move to open up space.

Seriously.

That train left the station, and everybody was looking to jump on to make themselves sound cool or like they knew more about hockey than the unwashed masses.

 

[StaalForOne]

It's possible they didn't want to throw him right into the playoffs, or the timing was never quite right. I think much of the league thinks this way. I followed Kyle Connor's progress a bit on the Jets board, and they were saying a lot of the things we say about Sprong. They were mad that Maurice wouldn't play him, and that he was ready last season despite playing most of it in the AHL. Both players had played ~20 NHL games their first year with disappointing numbers.

Connor 20 GP 5 pts , Sprong 18 GP 2 pts

Granted Sprong was under MJ when everyone sucked, but he also produced higher than Connor in the AHL

Connor 52 GP 44 pts last year, 4 GP 5 pts this year
Sprong was point per game this season 65/65

I would not be one bit surprised if that really was their plan and they wanted to stick to it. Guentzel played 44 in the AHL as well, and he traveled back a fourth a couple times between call ups even though we all thought he was ready. They are probably just being extra cautious. Recall that after Beau didn't pan out JR even admitted they thought he had been rushed. Obviously he had injury situations as well which didn't help his case, but the thinking there is consistent.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Right. But besides the obvious problem with making a determination like that independently of actual in-season performance - which would potentially prioritize Sprong's development path over icing the best possible team - Sprong couldn't do any more developing in the AHL this season. His development there was over, and his standard of AHL play was high enough for JR to state that he will be on the team next year, which would necessitate bouncing a present roster forward from the line-up.

JR could have said that Sprong looked great in the AHL this year but had to earn a spot next camp. He didn't.

They had a plan that Sprong would play in the AHL for the year. They would have evaluated that throughout the year. They didn’t just say he should be in the AHL all year and that’s it.

I don’t see how you could say his development was over in the AHL as he was getting scratched at different times. Some of it was to watch from the stands so some staff could explain the things he needs to be better at. That should be seen as a good thing.

JR saying he will be on the team next season doesn’t mean he will be. Sprong still has to do the right things in camp. Which he probably will and will play next season unless he’s traded.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I also think that anyone writing Simon off at this point is just pinching steaming hot takes.

He was rookie who scored on pace for 30 points, and he'll be dirt cheap for the next few years. He's not the guy you should be looking to move to open up space.

To me Simon is the ideal , significantly cheaper Sheary replacement

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Right. But besides the obvious problem with making a determination like that independently of actual in-season performance - which would potentially prioritize Sprong's development path over icing the best possible team - Sprong couldn't do any more developing in the AHL this season. His development there was over, and his standard of AHL play was high enough for JR to state that he will be on the team next year, which would necessitate bouncing a present roster forward from the line-up.

JR could have said that Sprong looked great in the AHL this year but had to earn a spot next camp. He didn't.



If JR's confident Sprong is good enough to usurp a player next fall based on what he's seen from him in the AHL, I don't see how the same argument couldn't have applied these playoffs when we had no shortage of passengers who weren't contributing. Better is better. It seems the Pens gave their established minor cogs a little too much rope.

Yes. +10 for Warm Cookies.

 

[Andy99]

To me Simon is the ideal , significantly cheaper Sheary replacement

But he’s not...Sheary is fast and has quick hands around the net....Simon is a better passer/playmaker but that’s it....he’s shown to be a meh player otherwise, and doesn’t offer Sheary’s speed....
Let’s be clear, I don’t like Sheary as a player and think he should be gone at his salary...but Simon has not shown yet that he has any great skills that would be a difference maker for this team....

 

[Tom Hanks]

To me Simon is the ideal , significantly cheaper Sheary replacement

Yeah. Better playmaker and could get to Sheary’s production given same usage, not the 16/17 season but Sheary likely never gets to that either. He’s better defensively although that’s not saying much. While not slow he doesn’t have Sheary’s speed but he’s much stronger and doesn’t fall down.

Simon’s troubles were more decision making on the break outs. That’s probably more getting used to the speed and abilities of the opposition at NHL level though than actually him being bad. He seems to be a smart player especially in the offensive zone.

 

[Tom Hanks]

But he’s not...Sheary is fast and has quick hands around the net....Simon is a better passer/playmaker but that’s it....he’s shown to be a meh player otherwise, and doesn’t offer Sheary’s speed....
Let’s be clear, I don’t like Sheary as a player and think he should be gone at his salary...but Simon has not shown yet that he has any great skills that would be a difference maker for this team....

You don’t have to replace players with exact identical attributes.

 

[Andy99]

Yeah. Better playmaker and could get to Sheary’s production given same usage, not the 16/17 season but Sheary likely never gets to that either. He’s better defensively although that’s not saying much. While not slow he doesn’t have Sheary’s speed but he’s much stronger and doesn’t fall down.

Simon’s troubles were more decision making on the break outs. That’s probably more getting used to the speed and abilities of the opposition at NHL level though than actually him being bad. He seems to be a smart player especially in the offensive zone.

I’m not sure he is better defensively...they both have weak spots there...for sure he doesn’t fall down and get outmuscled as much as Sheary, but he’s not as tenacious as a forechecker and he still looks lost out there and he doesn’t win any more board battles either...

 

[Andy99]

You don’t have to replace players with exact identical attributes.

I’d rather have a faster thinking and faster player overall in the lineup to replace Sheary...I’ve been saying I think they should go to FA or a trade to bring in a top 9 LW...

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I’m not sure he is better defensively...they both have weak spots there...for sure he doesn’t fall down and get outmuscled as much as Sheary, but he’s not as tenacious as a forechecker and he still looks lost out there and he doesn’t win any more board battles either...

Is Sheary $2.2M of a better player than Simon?

I don't think so

 

[Andy99]

Is Sheary $2.2M of a better player than Simon?

I don't think so

Nope...hate that contract....all I’m saying is that Simon has not shown to be an effective NHL player yet and with the Pens style of play they need someone quicker on pucks with better offensive and defensive skills..I’d like them to trade Sheary and bring in a better LW than hand Simon a place in the lineup...

 

[Tom Hanks]

I’m not sure he is better defensively...they both have weak spots there...for sure he doesn’t fall down and get outmuscled as much as Sheary, but he’s not as tenacious as a forechecker and he still looks lost out there and he doesn’t win any more board battles either...

Didn’t mean he was significantly better just that Sheary is pretty much our worst. Simon is deceptively strong for a small guy. I’ve seen him knock much bigger guys off the puck before.

He’s a skilled guy so needs to battle for a spot in the top 9. Although if we have all our centres then the 4th line can have some skill too. If he’s good enough he’ll make it.

 

[PensandCaps]

Nope...hate that contract....all I’m saying is that Simon has not shown to be an effective NHL player yet and with the Pens style of play they need someone quicker on pucks with better offensive and defensive skills..I’d like them to trade Sheary and bring in a better LW than hand Simon a place in the lineup...

Better offensive skills? Aside from his soft shot, Simon has above average NHL skill with the puck on his stick. Good hands and a heck of a passer. Just needs to make passes more quickly, something he'll learn over time.

 

[Peat]

If JR's confident Sprong is good enough to usurp a player next fall based on what he's seen from him in the AHL, I don't see how the same argument couldn't have applied these playoffs when we had no shortage of passengers who weren't contributing. Better is better. It seems the Pens gave their established minor cogs a little too much rope.

Whether you agree with the logic though is irrelevant, if you get what I mean (and in the nicest possible way).

Does thinking like that explain the two stances? Yes.

Is it possible/probable they were thinking like that? Imo, yes. There's no shortage of thinking like that in pro sports and its consistent with other decisions like sending Jooris back to WBS when he was outperforming every other 4th line plug at the end of the season.

Whether it was a mistake is besides the point of the question you asked - how can Rutherford be so sure if he wasn't judged good enough for the play offs. Tbh... it probably was a mistake, but one I sympathise with. Unit cohesion is probably as important, if not more so, than individual talent at that point. He didn't have that. There's a good chance he'd have done a better job than one of the many, many underperforming wingers despite that, but its not sure.

To me Simon is the ideal , significantly cheaper Sheary replacement

The speed issue (as already brought up) is a pretty big difference between the two, particularly in our system.

Besides, I'd like to replace Sheary with a player more like 16-17 Sheary than 17-18 Sheary or Simon.

Yeah. Better playmaker and could get to Sheary’s production given same usage, not the 16/17 season but Sheary likely never gets to that either. He’s better defensively although that’s not saying much. While not slow he doesn’t have Sheary’s speed but he’s much stronger and doesn’t fall down.

Simon’s troubles were more decision making on the break outs. That’s probably more getting used to the speed and abilities of the opposition at NHL level though than actually him being bad. He seems to be a smart player especially in the offensive zone.

Don't agree - I think Sheary's defensive positioning was a lot stronger, he's less prone to expensive turnovers, and is a far better forechecker.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Nope...hate that contract....all I’m saying is that Simon has not shown to be an effective NHL player yet and with the Pens style of play they need someone quicker on pucks with better offensive and defensive skills..I’d like them to trade Sheary and bring in a better LW than hand Simon a place in the lineup...

Hmmm. Regarding Sheary, not sure you are going to get an awesome player, but it could land you a decent pick. I still tend to think Simon is a depth guy at this point. Pure and simple as that. Not a top 9 guy IMO ...at least right now.