D-partners of the greats

[overpass]

Chris Chelios

1984-85: Tom Kurvers 0.81, Craig Ludwig 0.32 (Svoboda-Robinson 0.63)
1985-86: Tom Kurvers 0.76 (28 GP together), Larry Robinson 0.38 (Svoboda-Robinson 0.65, Ludwig-Green 0.89)
1986-87: Craig Ludwig 0.55, Mike Lalor 0.20, Gaston Gingras 0.19, Petr Svoboda 0.19 (Svoboda-Robinson 0.58, Lalor-Green 0,54)
1987-88: Craig Ludwig 0.42, Petr Svoboda 0.28 (Robinson-Green 0.51, Lalor-Green 0.45, Svoboda-Robinson 0.38)
1988-89: Craig Ludwig 0.85, Petr Svoboda 0.19
1989-90: Craig Ludwig 0.72, Sylvain Lefebvre 0,28 (Svoboda-Lumme 0.73, Lefebvre-Schneider 0.67)
1990-91: Steve Konroyd 0.47, Doug Wilson 0.41, Frantisek Kucera 0.38, Trent Yawney 0.33, Dave Manson 0.24
1991-92: Steve Smith 0.78 (Kucera-Buskas 0.56)
1992-93: Steve Smith 0.61, Frantisek Kucera 0.24, Bryan Marchment 0.21 (Marchment-Russell 0.78, Kucera-Brown 0.65, Kucera-Kravchuk 0.44)
1993-94: Eric Weinrich 0.43, Keith Carney 0.41, Steve Smith 0.38 (Wilkinson-Smyth 0.74, Weinrich-Carney 0.69, Smith-Russell 0.48)
1994-95: Gary Suter 0.89, Keith Carney 0.47 (Smith-Weinrich 0.76, Smyth-Russell 0.71)
1995-96: Keith Carney 0.64, Gary Suter 0.57, Steve Smith 0.36 in 37 GP (Weinrich-Suter 0.46)
1996-97: Keith Carney 0.75 (Weinrich-Ciccone 0.55, Weinrich-Suter 0.40)
1997-98: Keith Carney 0.66, Trent Yawney 0.34, Gary Suter 0.30 (Laflamme-Suter 0.57)
1998-99 (CHI): Dave Manson 0.47, Jamie Allison 0.40 in 39 GP, Bryan Muir 0.36, Doug Zmolek 0.32
1999-00: Steve Duchesne 0.68, Jiri Fischer 0.33, Nicklas Lidstrom 0.23 (Lidstrom-Murphy 0.66)
2000-01 (24 GP): Nicklas Lidstrom 0.58
2001-02: Jiri Fischer 0.49, Nicklas Lidstrom 0.34, Maxim Kuznetsov 0.34
2002-03 and later: too old

Comments:

• Chelios had a few seasons with full-time partners; namely Tom Kurvers, Craig Ludwig, Steve Smith, Gary Suter, and Keith Carney. Maybe Steve Duchesne too. He had some seasons where he had probably someone he played with more than anyone else, with Ludwig, Smith, Carney, and Jiri Fischer. And he had a handful of seasons where he appears to have played with anyone and everyone (87-88, 93-94, 98-99).
• His partners in his Norris trophy winning seasons: Craig Ludwig, (mostly) Steve Smith, and a combo of Keith Carney and Gary Suter. In his 2nd or 3rd place Norris seasons: one with no primary partner (90-91), one with Gary Suter, and one with (mostly) Jiri Fischer.

Did Chelios tend to play with the top forward on his team?

1984-85: Chelios-Naslund 0.33, others-Naslund 0.31
1985-86 (41 GP): Chelios-Naslund 0.55, others-Naslund 0.32
1986-87: Chelios-Naslund 0.28, others-Naslund 0.25
1987-88: Chelios-B. Smith 0.35, others-B. Smith 0.32
1988-89: Chelios-Naslund 0.36, others-Naslund 0.37
1989-90: Chelios-Richer 0.44, others-Richer 0.49
1990-91: Chelios-Roenick 0.41, others-Roenick 0.42
1991-92: Chelios-Roenick 0.46, others-Roenick 0.22
1992-93: Chelios-Roenick 0.35, others-Roenick 0.39
1993-94: Chelios-Roenick 0.43, others-Roenick 0.33
1994-95: Chelios-Roenick 0.52, others-Roenick 0.30
1995-96: Chelios-Roenick 0.60, others-Roenick 0.30
1996-97: Chelios-Amonte 0.50, others-Amonte 0.32
1997-98: Chelios-Amonte 0.44, others-Amonte 0.32 (Suter-Amonte 0.57)
1998-99: Chelios-Amonte 0.56, others-Amonte 0.29
1999-00: Chelios-Yzerman 0.34, others-Yzerman 0.28 (Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.69)
1999-00: Chelios-Fedorov 0.36, others-Fedorov 0.30
2000-01: only 24 GP, not enough to draw conclusions
2001-02: Chelios-Yzerman 0.57, others-Yzerman 0.25,
2001-02: Chelios-Fedorov 0.47, others-Fedorov 0.24

What about the top checkers?

1984-85: Chelios-Gainey 0.34, others-Gainey 0.22
1985-86 (41 GP): Chelios-Gainey 0.47, others-Gainey 0.30
1986-87: Chelios-Carbonneau 0.15, others-Carbonneau 0.28 (Lalor-Carbonneau 0.57, Green-Carbonneau 0.47)
1987-88: Chelios-Carbonneau 0.36, others-Carbonneau 0.29 (Ludwig-Carbonneau 0.48)
1988-89: Chelios-Carbonneau 0.42, others-Carbonneau 0.27
1989-90: Chelios-Carbonneau 0.50, others-Carbonneau 0.46 (Lefebvre-Carbonneau 0.64)
1990-91: Chelios-Graham 0.38, others-Graham 0.29
1991-92: Chelios-Graham 0.36, others-Graham 0.16
1992-93: Chelios-Graham 0.37, others-Graham 0.33
1993-94: Chelios-Graham 0.43, others-Graham 0.26 (Steve Smith-Graham 0.61)
1994-95: Chelios-B. Sutter 0.50, others-B.Sutter 0.39
1995-96: Chelios-B. Sutter 0.36, others-B.Sutter 0.33 (Weinrich-Sutter 0.50)
1996-97: Unsure if CHI had a top checker
1997-98: Unsure if CHI had a top checker
1998-99: Unsure if CHI had a top checker
1999-00: Chelios-Draper 0.38, others-Draper 0.19
2000-01: only 24 GP, not enough to draw conclusions
2001-02: Chelios-Draper 0.43, others-Draper 0.16

Comments:

• When Chelios played in Montreal, the answer is no, he didn't tend to play with the top forwards. He was in more of a defensive role. And with the exception of one season, he tended to play more with the top checker (Gainey or Carbonneau).
• Chelios had similar usage in his first few Chicago seasons, especially while Chicago was still a deep contender. He didn't appear to get extra ice time with Roenick, and he may have played more with Dirk Graham.
• When Chicago lost their depth and was no longer a contender, Chelios appears to have moved to more of an offensive role, playing with Roenick and Amonte to generate offence.
• In Detroit, he didn't play any special minutes with Fedorov and Yzerman in 99-00, in fact he may have played more with Draper. In 2001-02, he did play a fair bit with Yzerman and Fedorov.

 

[quietbruinfan]

huh weird, i could have sworn i read an article after shaw landed in boston that shaw was partnered with bourque and was talked about as an ideal safe guy to pair with a puck rusher, having previously partnered with the young leetch. but maybe it was a short-lived partnership?

Shaw never played much with Bourque. The data says it all. Shaw,like Bourque, often played the right side. Shaw drove his coaches crazy with mistakes. He was basically a tall, lanky mistake machine with an above average shot.

 

[overpass]

this is very interesting. although i don’t think being paired with young rob blake is doing coffey any favours defensively.

Yeah, that wasn’t Norris Rob Blake or Colorado Rob Blake. Fair point.

But I think there can be a big difference between being partnered with a top four type D-man and a depth 6-7 type. Also a difference between having a regular partner and having to play with multiple partners to shore up the defence. I’ve seen the difference myself with Erik Karlsson. He was so much better when he could play 25 minutes a game with a Filip Kuba or Marc Methot. When he had to play 28 minutes a game and cover for the Freddie Claessons on the team, his defensive play really suffered. So Coffey having a regular partner in young Rob Blake is IMO a much better situation than having to play with multiple partners including bottom pairing types.

I think that’s an underrated factor in team success historically, having the defensive depth so your stars aren’t pushed too far. Boston couldn’t win with Bourque covering up their lack of depth. The Isles had to add depth before they won, it looks like Potvin may have been asked to do too much in the 70s. The Habs stopped winning in the 80s when they needed Robinson to paper over their shaky depth D.

Or if you don’t have the depth, you need a Niedermayer and a Pronger.

 

[overpass]

Al MacInnis

1983-84: Steve Konroyd 0.57, Kari Eloranta 0.43 (Macoun-Baxter 0.68)
1984-85: Kari Eloranta 0.76, Paul Reinhart 0.41 (Macoun-Baxter 0.65, Konroyd-Reinhart 0.64)
1985-86: Gary Suter 0.36, Jamie Macoun 0.32, Paul Baxter 0.32, Steve Konroyd 0.26
1986-87: Jamie Macoun 0.91, Paul Reinhart 0.32 (Reinhart-Sheehy 0.54)
1987-88: Brian Glynn 0.61, Dana Murzyn 0.48 (Suter-McCrimmon 0.65)
1988-89: Jamie Macoun 0.53, Gary Suter 0.27 (Suter-McCrimmon 0.69)
1989-90: Dana Murzyn 0.61 (Suter-McCrimmon 0.54, Macoun-Nattress 0.54)
1990-91: Frantisek Musil 0.62 (Macoun-Nattress 0.72)
1991-92: Frantisek Musil 0.65, Gary Suter 0.37 (Suter-Osiecki 0.67)
1992-93: Gary Suter 0.50, Michel Petit 0.43, Kevin Dahl 0.35
1993-94: Frantisek Musil 0.46, Dan Keczmer 0.44 (Petit-Dahlquist 0.62)
1994-95: Only 32 GP, Jeff Norton 0.71 (20 GP together), Murray Baron 0.65 (28 GP together) (Lidster-Houlder 0.75)
1995-96: Murray Baron 0.85 (Pronger-Kravchuk 0.85, Pronger-Norton 0.70, Norton was traded for Kravchuk midseason)
1996-97: Libor Zabransky 0.64 (30 GP together), Ricard Persson 0.39 (44 GP together), Trent Yawney 0.34 (33 GP together) (Pronger-Kravchuk 0.58)
1997-98: Marc Bergevin 0.66, Jamie Rivers 0.41
1998-99: Ricard Persson 0.41, Jamie Rivers 0.33, Chris Pronger 0.32
1999-00: Marc Bergevin 0.72, Ricard Persson 0.44 (Pronger-Reirden 0.64)
2000-01: Bryce Salvador 0.72 (Pronger-Reirden 0.60, Pronger-Finley 0.51)
2001-02: Bryce Salvador 0.83 (Pronger-Van Ryn 0.76)
2002-03: Barrett Jackman 0.78

Comments:

• MacInnis played with Steve Konroyd, Kari Eloranta, Jamie Macoun, Brian Glynn, Dana Murzyn, and Frantisek Musil in Calgary, with Musil his most common partner from 90-91 through 93-94.
• While MacInnis mostly played with Gary Suter on the power play in Calgary, he probably did get a bit of even strength time with Suter, though not as a regular partner.
• In St Louis he had Murray Baron, Marc Bergevin, Bryce Salvador, and Barrett Jackman as regular partners, plus a bit of Jeff Norton, Ricard Persson, Libor Zabransky, and Jamie Rivers.

How much did MacInnis play with Gary Suter and Chris Pronger at even strength?

1985-86: Gary Suter 0.36
1986-87: Gary Suter 0.07
1987-88: Gary Suter 0.13
1988-89: Gary Suter 0.27
1989-90: Gary Suter 0.14
1990-91: Gary Suter 0.08
1991-92: Gary Suter 0.37
1992-93: Gary Suter 0.50

1995-96: Chris Pronger 0.11
1996-97: Chris Pronger 0.31
1997-98: Chris Pronger 0.22
1998-99: Chris Pronger 0.32
1999-00: Chris Pronger 0.02
2000-01: Chris Pronger 0.23
2001-02: Chris Pronger 0.14

I'm less sure how to interpret lower correlations, but it does look like MacInnis spent some time with Suter at ES in maybe 3-4 seasons, and in others they rarely played together at ES.

MacInnis and Pronger weren't regular ES partners but probably played some time together at ES.

What about MacInnis's usage with the best offensive players on the team?

1983-84: MacInnis-Nilsson 0.42, others-Nilsson 0.24
1984-85: MacInnis-Nilsson 0.58, others-Nilsson 0.45 (Reinhart-Nilsson 0.59)
1985-86: MacInnis-Loob 0.31, others-Loob 0.34
1986-87: MacInnis-Mullen 0.54, others-Mullen 0.44 (Reinhart-Mullen 0.58)
1987-88: MacInnis-Loob 0.47, others-Loob 0.40
1988-89: MacInnis-Mullen 0.40, others-Mullen 0.41
1989-90: MacInnis-Nieuwendyk 0.31, others-Nieuwendyk 0.28
1990-91: MacInnis-Fleury 0.37, others-Fleury 0.38
1991-92: MacInnis-Roberts 0.48, others-Roberts 0.37
1992-93: MacInnis-Fleury 0.59, others-Fleury 0.43 (Suter-Fleury 0.63)
1993-94: MacInnis-Roberts 0.46, others-Roberts 0.28
1994-95: MacInnis-Hull 0.64, others-Hull 0.38
1995-96: MacInnis-Hull 0.42, others-Hull 0.40 (Pronger-Hull 0.60)
1996-97: MacInnis-Turgeon 0.61, others-Turgeon 0.42 (Kravchuk-Turgeon 0.62)
1997-98: MacInnis-Turgeon 0.41, others-Turgeon 0.35 (Pronger-Turgeon 0.49)
1998-99: MacInnis-Demitra 0.52, others-Demitra 0.39 (Pronger-Demitra 0.53)
1999-00: MacInnis-Turgeon 0.34, others-Turgeon 0.27 (Pronger-Turgeon 0.51)
2000-01: MacInnis-Turgeon 0.54, others-Turgeon 0.39
2001-02: MacInnis-Tkachuk 0.55, others-Tkachuk 0.33
2002-03: MacInnis-Demitra 0.62, others-Demitra 0.34

I'm a bit surprised by these results. I would have expected MacInnis to spend more time with his teams' best offensive players. But he really didn't until the end of his time in Calgary, and then for parts of his time in St Louis.

It looks like Paul Reinhart had more of an offensive role with the top players in MacInnis's early Calgary seasons. The only season where it looks like he took a larger role with the top scorers at ES was 1992-93, which was also the season that he spent the most time with Gary Suter at ES. My guess is that Dave King used the PP pairing of Suter-MacInnis as an offensive weapon with the top scorers at ES as well.

Once in St-Louis, MacInnis appears to have taken an offensive role with the top players to start, but once Chris Pronger came into his own as a star, MacInnis had to share that role with Chris Pronger. But then MacInnis took more of an offensive role in his final seasons, especially the 2002-03 season where Pronger missed almost the entire season.

 

[overpass]

Scott Stevens

1982-83: Brian Engblom 0.70 (Langway-Holt 0.53, Langway-Blomquist 0.42)
1983-84: Timo Blomquist 0.58, Dave Shand 0.52 (Langway-Murphy 0.75)
1984-85: Timo Blomquist 0.50, Darren Veitch 0.38, Larry Murphy 0.33 (Langway-McEwen 0.67)
1985-86: Kevin Hatcher 0.57, Darren Veitch 0.50 (Langway-Hatcher 0.52)
1986-87: Larry Murphy 0.72 (Langway-Hatcher 0.56)
1987-88: Larry Murphy 0.40, Greg Smith 0.30 (Langway-Smith 0.69, Langway-Hatcher 0.48)
1988-89: Larry Murphy 0.68, Kevin Hatcher 0.28
1989-90: Bob Rouse 0.57, Kevin Hatcher 0.48, Neil Sheehy 0.40 (Langway-Hatcher 0.54)
1990-91: Jeff Brown 0.78 (Featherstone-Marois 0.64)
1991-92: Eric Weinrich 0.78 (Fetisov-Kasatonov 0.88, Daneyko-Driver 0.76)
1992-93: Scott Niedermayer 0.67 (Fetisov-Kasatonov 0.85, Daneyko-Driver 0.72)
1993-94: Ken Daneyko 0.49, Scott Niedermayer 0.35 (Niedermayer-Modry 0.57, Fetisov-Albelin 0.55)
1994-95: Bruce Driver 0.35, Shawn Chambers (midseason acquisition) 0.35, Scott Niedermayer 0.32
1995-96: Shawn Chambers 0.51, Scott Niedermayer 0.31
1996-97: Shawn Chambers 0.86
1997-98: Kevin Dean (50 GP) 0.58, Lyle Odelein 0.56
1998-99: Scott Niedermayer 0.55, Kevin Dean 0.36 (Niedermayer-Bombardir 0.59, Daneyko-Souray 0.62)
1999-00: Brian Rafalski 0.74 (Niedermayer-Daneyko 0.62)
2000-01: Brian Rafalski 0.86 (Niedermayer-Daneyko 0.60, Niedermayer-White 0.48)
2001-02: Brian Rafalski 0.49, Scott Niedermayer 0.44, Ken Daneyko 0.35
2002-03: Brian Rafalski 0.73, Oleg Tverdovsky 0.29 (Niedermayer-White 0.65, Daneyko-Tverdovsky 0.70)

Comments:

• Interesting to see how the Capitals pairings worked with Langway, Murphy, Hatcher, et al. While there were certainly more common pairings, it looks like it was rare to have full-season pairings. In 85-86 and 89-90 Stevens played with all 3 RHD. Larry Murphy was his most common partner for the three season stretch from 86-87, including Murphy's big season in 86-87 and Stevens' big year in 87-88.
• Stevens didn't have much consistency with his partners in New Jersey until Brian Rafalski showed up. I knew Stevens had played with Shawn Chambers in the 95 playoffs, and they were full season partners in 96-97, but Niedermayer, Kevin Dean, and Lyle Odelein were also in the mix.

How much did Stevens play with Scott Niedermayer at even strength?

1992-93: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.67
1993-94: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.35
1994-95: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.32
1995-96: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.31
1996-97: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.03
1997-98: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.14
1998-99: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.55
1999-00: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.23
2000-01: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.03
2001-02: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.44
2002-03: Stevens-Niedermayer 0.09

So Stevens-Niedermayer played together for most of Niedermayer's regular season. And they had a few other seasons where they definitely played some ES time together (98-99, 01-02, 93-94 through 95-96).

In 2001-02, Stevens-Niedermayer was 0.65 in 51 GP under Larry Robinson, and 0.10 in 31 GP under Kevin Constantine. (Stevens-Rafalski was 0.41 under Robinson and 0.59 under Constantine). So it looks like Larry Robinson played them together at ES that season, and Constantine didn't.


What about Stevens' usage with the best offensive players on the team?

1982-83: Stevens-Maruk 0.30, others-Maruk 0.23
1983-84: Stevens-Gartner 0.50, others-Gartner 0.39
1984-85: Stevens-Carpenter 0.51, others-Carpenter 0.45
1985-86: Stevens-Haworth 0.48, others-Haworth 0.34
1986-87: Stevens-Gartner 0.54, others-Gartner 0.23
1987-88: Stevens-Gartner 0.47, others-Gartner 0.30
1988-89: Stevens-Ridley 0.50, others-Ridley 0.31
1989-90: Stevens-Courtnall 0.38, others-Courtnall 0.35 (Hatcher-Courtnall 0.50)
1990-91: Stevens-Hull 0.53, others-Hull 0.31
1991-92: Stevens-Todd 0.55, others-Todd 0.21
1992-93: Stevens-Semak 0.28, others-Semak 0.41 (Fetisov-Semak 0.53, Kasatonov-Semak 0.54)
1993-94: Stevens-Richer 0.30, others-Richer 0.37
1994-95: Stevens-Richer 0.28, others-Richer 0.26
1995-96: Stevens-Thomas 0.20, others-Thomas 0.24
1996-97: Stevens-Andreychuk 0.35, others-Andreychuk 0.24
1997-98: Stevens-Holik 0.28, others-Holik 0.30
1998-99: Stevens-Holik 0.22, others-Holik 0.24
1999-00: Stevens-Elias 0.39, others-Elias 0.39
2000-01: Stevens-Elias 0.45, others-Elias 0.24
2001-02: Stevens-Elias 0.38, others-Elias 0.40 (Rafalski-Elias 0.55)
2002-03: Stevens-Elias 0.41, others-Elias 0.33 (Rafalski-Elias 0.54)

I think this is less meaningful for Stevens than some other star D because he rarely played on teams with superstar forwards. That being said, I can see a couple of trends.

For Stevens' first four seasons, Rod Langway was taking the defensive role and Stevens' role was more average, maybe a little on the offensive side. Once Stevens was paired with Larry Murphy in the late 80s, they took a more offensive role.

For the one season in St Louis, Stevens-Brown definitely played more of an offensive role with Hull and Oates.

It's hard to pick the best forward for some of these New Jersey seasons. Stevens played a lot with Kevin Todd in 91-92. Not so much with Alexander Semak in 92-93, probably because Herb Brooks kept Semak with his countrymen Fetisov and Kasatonov as much as possible. I expected Stevens to show a higher correlation with Richer in his big 93-94 season...that might need more investigation to draw conclusions. In any case from 94-95 on, we know Stevens was in a defensive role, and the low correlations with the top forwards are more supporting information in that direction. Once Stevens was paired with Brian Rafalski late in his career, it looks like he may have had some more time with the top forwards, most likely to get Rafalski in offensive situations.

 

[overpass]

More on Scott Stevens. Did he tend to play with the top checking forwards on his teams, and if so, when?

1982-83: Stevens-Jarvis 0.30, others-Jarvis 0.12
1983-84: Stevens-Jarvis 0.53, others-Jarvis 0.41
1984-85: Stevens-Jarvis 0.51, others-Jarvis 0.28
1985-86: Stevens-Gould 0.37, others-Gould 0.27 (Langway-Gould 0.40)
1986-87: Stevens-Gould 0.38, others-Gould 0.35 (Langway-Gould 0.54)
1987-88: Stevens-Gould 0.36, others-Gould 0.38 (Langway-Gould 0.57)
1988-89: Stevens-Gould 0.25, others-Gould 0.18 (Langway-Gould 0.25)
1989-90: Hard to pick top checker
1990-91: Hard to pick top checker
1991-92: Hard to pick top checker
1992-93: Hard to pick top checker
1993-94: Stevens-Carpenter 0.57, others-Carpenter 0.31
1994-95: Stevens-Carpenter 0.41, others-Carpenter 0.25 (Driver-Carpenter 0.47)
1995-96: Stevens-Carpenter 0.39, others-Carpenter 0.33 (Daneyko-Carpenter 0.48)
1996-97: Stevens-Carpenter 0.53, others-Carpenter 0.23
1997-98: Stevens-Carpenter 0.67, others-Carpenter 0.14
1998-99: Stevens-Carpenter 0.39, others-Carpenter 0.33 (S. Niedermayer-Carpenter 0.56, Niedermayer and Stevens played together for part of this season)
1999-00: Stevens-Madden 0.16, others-Madden 0.24 (Madden-Daneyko 0.36)
2000-01: Stevens-Madden 0,41, others-Madden 0.41 (Madden-Daneyko 0.49)
2001-02: Stevens-Madden 0.26, others-Madden 0.24 (Madden-Niedermayer 0.41)
2002-03: Stevens-Madden 0.60, others-Madden 0.18

The first thing I want to make clear is that we're talking about Scott Stevens in the 90s/early 00s and Rod Langway in the 80s, two of the most renowned defensive defenders of all time. So if they don't line up with the players I estimated were the top checkers (Doug Jarvis, Bobby Gould, Bob Carpenter, and John Madden), it's possible I picked the wrong forward as the top checker, and Stevens or Langway was playing the toughest defensive minutes with some other forwards. That being said, here are a few notes.

Stevens at age 18-20 played more with Doug Jarvis than Rod Langway in his Norris-winning prime did. I would guess Washington was spreading out the defensive talent rather than sending them out together.

Once Bobby Gould took over as Washington's top checker in the mid-late 80s, Rod Langway definitely played the most time with Gould.

I didn't have any confidence in my ability to pick the top checker for 89-90 through 92-93. Maybe Kelly Miller, maybe Rich Sutter, maybe Laurie Boschman...but I'll just skip the numbers rather than base any conclusions on guesses.

Scott Stevens did tend to play together with Bob Carpenter when Carpenter was the checking centre on New Jersey. It's interesting that this started as early as 1993-94. I would not have expected that of a season in which Stevens led the team in scoring and the league in plus-minus, I would have thought he was playing more with Stephane Richer this year.

Starting in 1999-00, when Stevens was paired with Rafalski, he didn't play an unusual amount with John Madden. Not until 2002-03 with Pat Burns. Either John Madden was not actually the top checking forward until 2002-03, or Stevens wasn't playing as much of a defensive role when paired with Rafalski.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

While MacInnis mostly played with Gary Suter on the power play in Calgary, he probably did get a bit of even strength time with Suter, though not as a regular partner.

OT but randomly this week i watched a couple old games after everyone else went to bed early with turkey comas and macinnis and suter featured in inauspicious ways.

first game, gary suter hits greg c adams (#22) right in the numbers



karma struck in game five of that series, suter caught a shot to the face and missed the rest of the playoff run.


second game i watched, alex semak accidentally high sticks gretzky and at the end of the play, macinnis crosschecks a very young alex zhamnov in the face and gets himself kicked out of the game.




we all know what would happen with suter and gretzky later in that tournament. where was his buddy big mac then?

 

[overpass]

Mark Howe

1979-80: Mike Rogers (F) 0.60, Gordie Howe (F) 0.47, Al Sims 0.45, Gordie Roberts 0.40, Rick Ley 0.24
1979-80 (first half): Mike Rogers 0.75, Gordie Howe 0.71, Rick Ley 0.53
1979-80 (second half): Al Sims 0.50, Gordie Roberts 0.39
1980-81: Al Sims 0.39, Stu Smith (27 GP together) 0.39, Mickey Volcan (34 GP together) 0.38, Norm Barnes (37 GP together (0.36)
1980-81 (before injury): Al Sims 0.43, Jack McIlhargey 0.42, Norm Barnes 0.40
1980-81 (after injury): Stu Smith 0.39, Al Sims 0.38
1981-82: Marty Howe 0.71 (in only 13 GP), Blake Wesley 0.44, Chris Kotsopolous 0.39
1982-83: Glen Cochrane 0.81, Frank Bathe 0.44 (Marsh-Dvorak 0.83)
1983-84: Doug Crossman 0.50, Glen Cochrane 0.44, Brad McCrimmon 0.25 (Dvorak-McCrimmon 0.56, Marsh-Eriksson 0.56)
1984-85: Brad McCrimmon 0.94, Thomas Eriksson 0.40 (Crossman-Hospodar 0.59)
1985-86: Brad McCrimmon 0.88 (Marsh-Crossman 0.71)
1986-87: Brad McCrimmon 0.94 (Daigneault-Crossman 0.63, Marsh-K.Samuelsson 0.62)
1987-88: Kjell Samuelsson 0.66, Doug Crossman 0.27 (Marsh-Crossman 0.53, Huffman-Crossman 0.57, Marsh-Smyth 0.54)
1988-89: Kjell Samuelsson 0.60, Gord Murphy 0.50 (Wells-Murphy 0.71, Carkner-Chychrun 0.69)
Skipping some injury-plagued seasons, I'll include his final two years because I already ran the numbers on the Wings for Paul Coffey.
1993-94: Terry Carkner 0.91 (Lidstrom-Coffey 0.87, Chiasson-Konstantinov 0.73)
1994-95: Bob Rouse 0.68, Vladimir Konstantinov 0.49 (Lidstrom-Coffey 0.74)

Comments:

• Let's start with Howe-McCrimmon. Everyone knows that Mark Howe and Brad McCrimmon were a famous partnership. I've seen some people assume they played together for all five seasons they were in Philly, but Howe has said in interviews and his autobiography that they became a pairing when Mike Keenan became the coach in 1984-85. These numbers back up that story, as their correlation was only 0.20 for 82-83 and 0.25 for 83-84, before hitting the 0.90 range for their 3 seasons under Keenan.
• I've heard the story that Howe was dressed at defence starting in the 4th game of the 1979-80 season. But the plus-minus correlations are pretty clear that from about the 10th game of the season through the 40th game, he was playing regularly with his dad and Mike Rogers, I would assume as a LW. He played D for the second half of the season and didn't have a regular partner.
• Howe didn't have a regular defence partner in his next two Hartford seasons either. Hartford started off with some decent defenders in Gordie Roberts, Al Sims, and Rick Ley, but over those first 3 seasons they almost completely turned over their defence corps, and had a lot of players playing partial seasons. Howe was being asked to carry a pretty shaky group while still recovering from his awful injury when he was impaled on the goalpost.
• Someone mentioned earlier that Al Sims was lucky enough to play with Bobby Orr and Brad Park. We can add Mark Howe to the list as well. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about playing with them.
• Howe played 13 games with his brother Marty in 81-82, and their game-by-game plus-minuses are similar enough to suggest they were partners for much of that time.
• In Philadelphia, Howe had all the continuity and structure he lacked in Philadelphia. Glen Cochrane doesn't look like anything special as a partner as far as I can tell, but at least Howe had a full-time partner in his first season in Philly. And then Brad McCrimmon and Howe formed an all-time great and memorable partnership. Finally, Howe played regularly with Kjell Samuellsson for at least the two seasons after McCrimmon had left for Calgary.

What about Howe's usage with the best offensive forwards on the team? Philadelphia had a fairly balanced attack instead of relying on a dominant first line, so it's not always easy to pick out the best offensive forward, but let's see what we can find.

1979-80: Howe-Rogers 0.60, others-Rogers 0.46
1980-81: Howe-Rogers 0.41, others-Rogers 0.32
1981-82: Howe-Stoughton 0.41, others-Stoughton 0.39
1982-83: Howe-Clarke 0.50, others-Clarke 0.32. Also Howe-Sittler 0.51, others-Sittler 0.26
1983-84: Howe-Propp 0.41, others-Propp 0.39
1984-85: Howe-Propp 0.61, others-Propp 0.34
1985-86: Howe-Propp 0.45, others-Propp 0.32
1986-87: Howe-Kerr 0.56, others-Kerr 0.16
1987-88: Howe-Propp 0.56, others-Propp 0.44
1988-89: Howe-Tocchet 0.36, others-Tocchet 0.35

The 1979-80 numbers are skewed by the fact that Howe played forward with Rogers for part of the season.

It looks like Howe did tend to play more with the top forwards in Philadelphia than he did with the depth forwards.

 

[overpass]

Brian Leetch

1988-89: David Shaw 0.67, Michel Petit 0.46 (Greschner-Patrick 0.63)
1989-90: David Shaw 0.83 (22 GP), Randy Moller 0.53 (Hardy-Patrick 0.79)
1990-91: David Shaw 0.65, James Patrick 0.27, Randy Moller 0.25 (Hardy-Patrick 0.58, Rochefor-Moller 0.60)
1991-92: Jeff Beukeboom 0.70, Randy Moller 0.37, Per Djoos 0.29 (Hardy-Patrick 0.74)
1992-93: Jeff Beukeboom 0.68, James Patrick 0.33, Joe Cirella 0.26 (Hardy-Patrick 0.73, Cirella-Zubov 0.70)
1993-94: Jeff Beukeboom 0.65, Alexander Karpotsev 0.35, Sergei Zubov 0.25 (Lowe-Zubov 0.64)
1994-95: Jeff Beukeboom 0.79, Sergei Zubov 0.38 (Lowe-Zubov 0.72)
1995-96: Jeff Beukeboom 0.81, Doug Lidster 0.29 (Lowe-Driver 0.54)
1996-97: Jeff Beukeboom 0.84 (U. Samuelssson-Karpotsev 0.87, Driver-Lidster 0.74)
1997-98: Jeff Beukeboom 0.52, Bruce Driver 0.24, Doug Lidster 0.23
1998-99: Ulf Samuelsson 0.81, Mathieu Schneider 0.31 (Popovic-Schneider 0.58)
1999-00: Kevin Hatcher 0.55, Stephane Quintal 0.51, Mathieu Schneider 0.32 (Lefebvre-Schneider 0.78, Johnsson-Quintal 0.61)
2000-01: Rich Pilon 0.57, Kim Johnsson 0.33
2001-02: Vladimir Malakhov 0.80, Igor Ulanov 0.23 (Lefebvre-Berard 0.81, Ulanov-Karpa 0.75)
2002-03: Tom Poti 0.88
2003-04 (NYR): Tom Poti 0.78

Comments:

• Leetch had a lot of continuity with his partners, much more so than some of the other great defencemen. David Shaw was his primary partner for his first 3 full seasons, and then Jeff Beukeboom was his primary partner for his next 7 seasons.
• The Rangers had a very balanced defence corps in terms of RHS and LHS for Leetch's first decade. For some seasons, it looks like Leetch had a primary d-partner but he also played some with the 2 other RHS as well. For example, 1990-91 where David Shaw was his primary partner and he also played some with James Patrick and Randy Moller. Looking at the numbers, I would say Leetch very rarely played with a LHS partner at even strength through 1996-97. None of the other LHS defencemen I've profiled here were so consistently paired with a RHS partner.
• It looks like the Rangers had a rare RHS-RHS pairing at times in 1992-93 after Sergei Zubov joined James Patrick, Jeff Beukeboom, and Joe Cirella on the roster. The four of them dressed for 17 games together, with Cirella and Zubov playing together.
• Leetch's numbers dropped off quite a bit after his Norris-winning 1996-97 season. Looking at his defence partners, the Rangers lost their LHS-RHS balance at this time, and they also lost some depth, playing low minute goons like Dale Purinton on the bottom pairing.
• Leetch played with LHS partners quite a bit more toward the end of his Ranger career, including Ulf Samuelsson, Vladimir Malakhov, and Tom Poti.

What about Leetch's usage with the best offensive players on the team?

1988-89: Leetch-Sandstrom 0.32, others-Sandstrom 0.33
1989-90: Leetch-Ogrodnick 0.44, others-Ogrodnick 0.36
1990-91: Leetch-Nicholls 0.55, others-Nicholls 0.22
1991-92: Leetch-Messier 0.63, others-Messier 0.31
1992-93: Leetch-Messier 0.80, others-Messier 0.30
1993-94: Leetch-Messier 0.40, others-Messier 0.23 (Zubov-Messier 0.45)
1994-95: Leetch-Messier 0.36, others-Messier 0.22 (Zubov-Messier 0.41)
1995-96: Leetch-Messier 0.73, others-Messier 0.37
1996-97: Leetch-Messier 0.74, others-Messier 0.24
1997-98: Leetch-Gretzky 0.47, others-Gretzky 0.35
1998-99: Leetch-Gretzky 0.39, others-Gretzky 0.38 (Schneider-Gretzky 0.55)
1999-00: Leetch-Nedved 0.55, others-Nedved 0.35
2000-01: Leetch-Nedved 0.30, others-Nedved 0.37
2001-02: Leetch-Lindros 0.44, others-Lindros 0.33 (Berard-Lindros 0.54)
2002-03: Leetch-Nedved 0.37, others-Nedved 0.42 (Berard-Nedved 0.51)
2003-04: Leetch-Holik 0.45, others-Holik 0.34

The numbers really jump out here. Brian Leetch and Mark Messier were a THING. Especially for 91-92, 92-93, 95-96, and 96-97. Why not in 93-94 and 94-95? Because Sergei Zubov was competing with Leetch for offensive situations and minutes with the top line.

This also points to a reason for Leetch's decline in the late 90s...he didn't get to play as much of an offensive role at ES anymore. The team had other offensive d-men like Mathieu Schneider and Bryan Berard.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sounds like a good enough reason to enshrine him as a Builder. Not that his playing doesn't exceed the level of some defenseman that played on dynasties and got in on the back of that. Bring his family in and honor him.

Consider, 20 of the top 21 players in career plus/minus are in the Hall of Fame.

Only Brad McCrimmon (10th) is not in.

 

[overpass]

Going back to the Original Six era for some pairings. We have the data starting in 59-60.

Doug Harvey
59-60: Junior Langlois 0.73, Bob Turner 0.64
60-61: Junior Langlois 0.86, J.C. Tremblay 0.74 (22 GP together)
61-62: Junior Langlois 0.85
62-63: Junior Langlois 0.53, Jim Neilson 0.43, Larry Cahan 0.42
68-69: Noel Picard 0.84

Tom Johnson
59-60: Jean-Guy Talbot 0.81
60-61: Jean-Guy Talbot 0.91
61-62: Jean-Guy Talbot 0.65, Lou Fontinato 0.30
62-63: Jean-Guy Talbot 0.66
63-64: Doug Mohns 0.59, Leo Boivin 0.47, Bob McCord 0.41
64-65: Ted Green 0.82

J.C. Tremblay
60-61 (30 GP): Doug Harvey 0.74
61-62: Lou Fontinato 0.74, Al MacNeil 0.36
62-63: Lou Fontinato 0.75, Jean Gauthier 0.57
63-64: Jacques Laperriere 0.87
64-65: Jacques Laperriere 0.86
65-66: Jacques Laperriere 0.89
66-67: Jacques Laperriere 0.72, Ted Harris 0.44
67-68: Ted Harris 0.75, Serge Savard 0.43
68-69: Ted Harris 0.76
69-70: Ted Harris 0.43, Jacques Laperriere 0.28, Serge Savard 0.24
70-71: Guy Lapointe 0.74, Pierre Bouchard 0.31
71-72: Pierre Bouchard 0.63, Guy Lapointe 0.41, Serge Savard 0.38

Jacques Laperriere
63-64: J.C. Tremblay 0.87
64-65: J.C. Tremblay 0.86
65-66: J.C. Tremblay 0.89
66-67: J.C. Tremblay 0.72, Terry Harper 0.38
67-68: Terry Harper 0.87
68-69: Serge Savard 0.66
69-70: Terry Harper 0.76
70-71: Terry Harper 0.87
71-72: Terry Harper 0.73, Serge Savard 0.57
72-73: Guy Lapointe 0.34, Serge Savard 0.31

Tim Horton
59-60: Allan Stanley 0.96
60-61: Allan Stanley 0.85
61-62: Allan Stanley 0.95
62-63: Allan Stanley 0.86
63-64: Allan Stanley 0.83
64-65: Allan Stanley 0.56, Kent Douglas 0.45
65-66: Allan Stanley 0.90
66-67: Allan Stanley 0.57, Larry Hillman 0.57, Marcel Pronovost 0.47, Kent Douglas 0.42
67-68: Allan Stanley 0.69, Duane Rupp 0.59

Carl Brewer
59-60: Bob Baun 0.79
60-61: Bob Baun 0.78, Larry Hillman 0.35
61-62: Bob Baun 0.86, Al Arbour 0.33
62-63: Bob Baun 0.84, Kent Douglas 0.40
63-64: Bob Baun 0.91, Larry Hillman 0.59
64-65: Bob Baun 0.63, Kent Douglas 0.38

Pierre Pilote
59-60: Moose Vasko 0.90
60-61: Moose Vasko 0.91
61-62: Moose Vasko 0.84
62-63: Moose Vasko 0.69, Jack Evans 0.29
63-64: Moose Vasko 0.74, Aut Erickson 0.30, Al MacNeil 0.29
64-65: Moose Vasko 0.83
65-66: Moose Vasko 0.76, Pat Stapleton 0.76
66-67: Doug Jarrett 0.83, Pat Stapleton 0.40
67-68: Doug Jarrett 0.84, Pat Stapleton 0.33

Marcel Pronovost
59-60: Warren Godfrey 0.61, Don Marcon 0.26
60-61: Pete Goegan 0.65, Gerry Odrowski 0.18
61-62: Warren Godfrey 0.59, Pete Goegan 0.55, Bill Gadsby 0.38
62-63: Doug Barkley 0.80
63-64: Doug Barkley 0.74, Bill Gadsby 0.38
64-65: Doug Barkley 0.57, Gary Bergman 0.34
65-66: Bob Baun 0.79, Larry Hillman 0.72, Tim Horton 0.39
66-67: Larry Hillman 0.69, Bob Baun 0.48, Tim Horton 0.47
67-68: Larry Hillman 0.63, Duane Rupp 0.58

Bill Gadsby
59-60: Harry Howell 0.48, Jack Hanna 0.39
60-61: Irv Spencer 0.59, Harry Howell 0.35, Lou Fontinato 0.35
61-62: Warren Godfrey 0.59, Pete Goegan 0.55, Harry Howell 0.38
62-63: Howie Young 0.80, Pete Goegan 0.32
63-64: Ron Ingram 0.71, Marcel Pronovost 0.38
64-65: Gary Bergman 0.50, Junior Langlois 0.47
65-66: Gary Bergman 0.53, Bert Marshall 0.50, Doug Barkley 0.41

Harry Howell
59-60: Lou Fontinato 0.52, Bill Gadsby 0.48
60-61: Don Johns 0.78, Bill Gadsby 0.35
61-62: Larry Cahan 0.83, Irv Spencer 0.46
62-63: Jim Neilson 0.31, Larry Cahan 0.24
63-64: Junior Langlois 0.56, Don Johns 0.36
64-65: Larry Cahan 0.51, Don Johns 0.40, Arnie Brown 0.40
65-66: Arnie Brown 0.49, Rod Seiling 0.35
66-67: Arnie Brown 0.92

Leo Boivin
59-60: Bob Armstrong 0.77, Aut Erickson 0.37
60-61: Bob Armstrong 0.50, Dallas Smith 0.46
61-62: Ed Westfall 0.76, Ted Green 0.45
62-63: Ed Westfall 0.62, Ted Green 0.46
63-64: Ted Green 0.77, Bob McCord 0.47
64-65: Bob McCord 0.83, Bob Woytowich 0.82
65-66: Ted Green 0.59, Bob Awrey 0.47

Doug Mohns
59-60: Fern Flaman 0.82
60-61: Fern Flaman 0.45, Dallas Smith 0.35
61-62: Pat Stapleton 0.54, Ted Green 0.38, Leo Boivin 0.29
62-63: Warren Godfrey 0.47, Ted Green 0.43, Irv Spencer 0.41
63-64: Tom Johnson 0.59, Leo Boivin 0.29

Montreal, Toronto, and Chicago tended to have a lot of continuity on their pairings. Not so much for Detroit, New York, and Boston.

 

[McGarnagle]

I'd be interested in seeing this for Chara

For big games or close and late situations Julien would put him with Seidenberg, but more often for the bulk of the year he'd be with Boychuk. I'd like to see if the data matches that impression.

 

[ESH]

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

This has line combinations for every season since 2007-08

 

[The Panther]

Just wondering @overpass , why were some seasons not included? (I'm thinking of Coffey's rookie year, 1980-81, and Robinson's last two seasons, 1989-91 and 1991-92?)

Wow, Ray Bourque's defence partners were all over the place, eh? The mid-to-late 1980s guys he played with were... not great. (Wesley was good, but a rookie then.)

Paul Coffey

1981-82: Garry Lariviere 0.81 (Lowe-Fogolin 0.83, Siltanen-Hicks 0.82, Siltanen-Huddy 0.73)
1982-83: Charlie Huddy 0.90 (Lowe-Fogolin 0.91, Gregg-Jackson 0.92)
1983-84: Charlie Huddy 0.89 (Lowe-Fogolin 0.89, Gregg-Jackson 0.87)
1984-85: Charlie Huddy 0.92 (Lowe-Fogolin 0.91, Gregg-Jackson 0.87)
1985-86: Charlie Huddy 0.82 (Lowe-Fogolin 0.81, Gregg-Jackson 0.66)
1986-87: Jeff Beukeboom 0.80 (26 GP together), Charlie Huddy 0.67 (Huddy-Beukeboom 0.80 in 25 GP, Smith-Fogolin 0.81 in 24 GP, Lowe-Muni 0.56)

Wow, those are high correlations with Huddy! Charlie Huddy was a very good player, both offensively and defensively. It's odd, though, because you'd think Sather would have wanted a more "McCrimmon"-type, stay-at-home partnered with Coffey. But Coffey didn't play with Lowe or Gregg...

1993-94: Niklas Lidstrom 0.87 (Chiasson-Konstantinov 0.73, Howe-Carkner 0.91)
1994-95: Niklas Lidstrom 0.74 (Ramsey-Konstantinov 0.57)

There can't be too many cases of future (or overall) Norris trophy winners playing together with this high a correlation...?

• In 1986-87, Coffey had to play with some other defencemen and didn't get as much time with Gretzky, and suddenly he dropped from +61 to +13.

1986-87: Coffey-Gretzky 0.47, others-Gretzky 0.36 (Gregg-Gretzky was 0.63)

As I showed on another thread recently, during 1986-87 Gretzky scored at an extrememly high rate (like, a 255-point pace or something) in games when Coffey was OUT of the lineup, and at a much lower rate when Coffey was in. It's all rather odd, and probably reflects more so the team's highs and lows than the effect of Coffey's presence, but all this accummulated data does suggest (as we already kind of knew) that there were great limits to Coffey's effectiveness. Coffey was just a very unusual player, almost without comparable in League history.

1992-93 (LAK): Coffey-Gretzky 0.71, others 0.40

Gretzky and Coffey were teammates for only 11 games in 1992-93....

Chris Chelios

1988-89: Craig Ludwig 0.85, Petr Svoboda 0.19
1989-90: Craig Ludwig 0.72, Sylvain Lefebvre 0,28 (Svoboda-Lumme 0.73, Lefebvre-Schneider 0.67)

This was a really great defence-pairing. I like Chelios but I'm not as high on him as some on here (mainly because of his taking too many penalties and some risky play). I think he was perfectly paired with someone like Ludwig.

Al MacInnis

1983-84: Steve Konroyd 0.57, Kari Eloranta 0.43 (Macoun-Baxter 0.68)
1984-85: Kari Eloranta 0.76, Paul Reinhart 0.41 (Macoun-Baxter 0.65, Konroyd-Reinhart 0.64)
1985-86: Gary Suter 0.36, Jamie Macoun 0.32, Paul Baxter 0.32, Steve Konroyd 0.26
1986-87: Jamie Macoun 0.91, Paul Reinhart 0.32 (Reinhart-Sheehy 0.54)
1987-88: Brian Glynn 0.61, Dana Murzyn 0.48 (Suter-McCrimmon 0.65)
1988-89: Jamie Macoun 0.53, Gary Suter 0.27 (Suter-McCrimmon 0.69)
1989-90: Dana Murzyn 0.61 (Suter-McCrimmon 0.54, Macoun-Nattress 0.54)
1990-91: Frantisek Musil 0.62 (Macoun-Nattress 0.72)
1991-92: Frantisek Musil 0.65, Gary Suter 0.37 (Suter-Osiecki 0.67)
1992-93: Gary Suter 0.50, Michel Petit 0.43, Kevin Dahl 0.35
1993-94: Frantisek Musil 0.46, Dan Keczmer 0.44 (Petit-Dahlquist 0.62)
1994-95: Only 32 GP, Jeff Norton 0.71 (20 GP together), Murray Baron 0.65 (28 GP together) (Lidster-Houlder 0.75)
1995-96: Murray Baron 0.85 (Pronger-Kravchuk 0.85, Pronger-Norton 0.70, Norton was traded for Kravchuk midseason)
1996-97: Libor Zabransky 0.64 (30 GP together), Ricard Persson 0.39 (44 GP together), Trent Yawney 0.34 (33 GP together) (Pronger-Kravchuk 0.58)
1997-98: Marc Bergevin 0.66, Jamie Rivers 0.41
1998-99: Ricard Persson 0.41, Jamie Rivers 0.33, Chris Pronger 0.32
1999-00: Marc Bergevin 0.72, Ricard Persson 0.44 (Pronger-Reirden 0.64)
2000-01: Bryce Salvador 0.72 (Pronger-Reirden 0.60, Pronger-Finley 0.51)
2001-02: Bryce Salvador 0.83 (Pronger-Van Ryn 0.76)
2002-03: Barrett Jackman 0.78

MacInnis's career-arc is always hard to explain. Like, it's odd enough that he wasn't good enough to be an NHL regular c.1983 or 1984, but then he's the 2nd-best Dman in the NHL in 2003. You would then think -- given his age when he had these fab late-career seasons in 1999 (Norris) and 2003 -- that it must be explained by his ace-partner... but no, he had very average (even below par) partners in those seasons when he was old. I guess MacInnis just aged really well...

Scott Stevens

1986-87: Larry Murphy 0.72 (Langway-Hatcher 0.56)

With respect to Bourque, who was on island in Boston, and Howe-McCrimmon (who weren't as great this year as the season prior), this was the League's best pairing in 1986-87. Too bad Washington couldn't keep those two guys together...

 

[overpass]

Just wondering @overpass , why were some seasons not included? (I'm thinking of Coffey's rookie year, 1980-81, and Robinson's last two seasons, 1989-91 and 1991-92?)

Honestly, just because they were non-prime years. I wasn't interested in taking a few minutes to run the numbers and find the answer for some years when they weren't really great players.

Wow, Ray Bourque's defence partners were all over the place, eh? The mid-to-late 1980s guys he played with were... not great. (Wesley was good, but a rookie then.)

Not great, indeed. In Bourque's near-Hart winning season (89-90) he was basically playing with anyone and everyone.

Wow, those are high correlations with Huddy! Charlie Huddy was a very good player, both offensively and defensively. It's odd, though, because you'd think Sather would have wanted a more "McCrimmon"-type, stay-at-home partnered with Coffey. But Coffey didn't play with Lowe or Gregg...

It is funny. Coffey seems to have been at his best with a skilled partner, just as he was at his best with skilled forwards.

Unlike a Bourque or a Potvin who would lift weaker teammates, he was at his best while playing with the best.

There can't be too many cases of future (or overall) Norris trophy winners playing together with this high a correlation...?

Yeah, I think that's the only case where two Norris winners (past or future) were full season even strength partners. A few close calls as well, like the Stevens-Murphy pairing you pointed out where they would both finish top 3 but never win. Or like Norris winner Jacques Laperriere and #2 finisher JC Tremblay.

Or you could point to Larry Robinson playing with Rod Langway for part of the 79-80 season...but their full season correlation was only 0.41.

And now I've just realized that Coffey himself also played with future Norris winner Rob Blake in his 50 GP with the Kings in 1992-93, correlation 0.90. Not a full season but certainly a regular partner for the majority of the season.

Overall, one thing I've realized is that most teams with a great defenceman don't tend to stack their top pairing. It's more common to go 1-4 and 2-3, or 1-3 and 2-4, than to have 1-2 on the first pairing. And sometimes the #5 or #6 gets time with the #1 too.

 

[reckoning]

I somehow missed this thread the first time it came up, but this is great work by overpass. A very inventive and reliable method of using stats to discover or confirm things that weren't known for sure. I've been watching a lot of games from the 83-84 season lately, and the pairings in this thread from that season do match what I've seen.

Maybe this may lead to the legacies of some defencemen who didn't have great partners to be reassessed.

I wonder if it would be statistically feasible to a do a game by game plus minus comparison with the top offensive players on the opposing team, to see which players were matched against them the most by looking for the highest negative correlations?

 

[overpass]

I wonder if it would be statistically feasible to a do a game by game plus minus comparison with the top offensive players on the opposing team, to see which players were matched against them the most by looking for the highest negative correlations?

I have thought of that. I started taking a look at Bobby Hull vs Montreal in the O6 era, because the sample size is so much larger with 14 games against each team.

For 63-64:
Jean-Guy Talbot vs Hull: -0.31
Terry Harper vs Hull: -0.18
J.C. Tremblay vs Hull: 0.18
Jacques Laperriere vs Hull: 0.18

The correlations aren't super high but it points to Talbot-Harper playing a bit more against Hull than Laperriere-Tremplay.

It's on my list to run some multi-season correlations for opponents in this era, to get a better sample size.

 

[overpass]

Nicklas Lidstrom

91-92: Brad McCrimmon 0.83
92-93: Paul Coffey 0.93 (after the trade), Brad McCrimmon 0.42
93-94: Paul Coffey 0.87
94-95: Paul Coffey 0.74
95-96: Bob Rouse 0.60, Mike Ramsey 0.33, Paul Coffey 0.22
96-97: Aaron Ward 0.39, Bob Rouse 0.20, Jamie Pushor 0.20
97-98: Larry Murphy 0.84, Bob Rouse 0.41
98-99: Larry Murphy 0.92
99-00: Larry Murphy 0.66
00-01: Mathieu Dandenault 0.51, Larry Murphy 0.46, Chris Chelios 0.58 in 24 GP
01-02: Fredrik Olausson 0.43, Chris Chelios 0.34, Mathieu Dandenault 0.26
02-03: Mathieu Dandenault 0.71
03-04: Mathieu Schneider 0.53, Chris Chelios 0.39, Mathieu Dandenault 0.34
05-06: Andreas Lilja 0.59, Mathieu Schneider 0.26, Chris Chelios 0.21
06-07: Danny Markov 0.64, Andreas Lilja 0.32, Chris Chelios 0.31

07-08 and on are available elsewhere online.

How much did Lidstrom play with the superstar centres on his team?

91-92: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.60, Yzerman-Lidstrom 0.36
92-93: Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.43, Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.42
93-94: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.58, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.58
94-95: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.32, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.44
95-96: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.28, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.58
96-97: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.22, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.74
97-98: Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.63
98-99: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.44, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.61
99-00: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.43, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.69
00-01: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.58, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.55
01-02: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.36, Lidstrom-Yzerman 0.52
02-03: Lidstrom-Fedorov 0.49
03-04: Lidstrom-Datsyuk 0.40
05-06: Lidstrom-Datsyuk 0.47
06-07: Lidstrom-Datsyuk 0.60

Lidstrom started off by playing a lot with Sergei Fedorov in his rookie season. Lidstrom and his partner Paul Coffey also played a lot with Fedorov in his Hart-winning 1993-94 season, and also with Steve Yzerman who was still very productive in an injury-shortened season.

In the 95-96 season, Scotty Bowman started using the Russian Five as a unit, with Kozlov, Fedorov, Larionov, Fetisov and Konstantinov. As a result, Lidstrom appears to have played most of his minutes for that season and the next with Steve Yzerman. And the Lidstrom-Yzerman connection continued on through 1999-00, and then to a lesser degree in the next two seasons.

In the 06-07 season, Lidstrom appears to have played most of his EV minutes with Pavel Datsyuk. We already know he played the majority of his EV minutes in 07-08 with Datsyuk, based on the actual TOI.

All in all, Lidstrom generally played with very good partners and strong forwards in the 1990s, especially Paul Coffey, Larry Murphy, and Steve Yzerman. And then again in the mid to late 00s, starting around 2007, he played a lot with very good players like Brian Rafalski, Pavel Datsyuk, and Henrik Zetterberg. But during the early-mid 00s, when he was winning almost all the Norris trophies, he played with weaker defence partners and no extra time with superstar forwards.

 

[overpass]

Chris Pronger

93-94: Brad McCrimmon 0.61, Alexander Godynyuk 0.40, James Patrick 0.28
94-95: Glen Wesley 0.44, Brian Glynn 0.39, Frantisek Kucera 0.27, Adam Burt 0.26
95-96: Igor Kravchuk 0.85, Jeff Norton 0.70 (Norton was traded for Kravchuk mid-season)
96-97: Igor Kravchuk 0.58, Al MacInnis 0.31, Ricard Persson 0.30
97-98: Chris McAlpine 0.57, Steve Duchesne 0.34, Al MacInnis 0.22
98-99: Ricard Persson 0.63, Todd Gill 0.47 (28 GP), Al MacInnis 0.32
99-00: Todd Reirden 0.64, Jeff Finley 0.40, Ricard Persson 0.28
00-01: Todd Reirden 0.60 (38 GP), Jeff Finley 0.51, Al MacInnis 0.23
01-02: Mike van Ryn 0.76 (48 GP), Jeff Finley 0.28
02-03: Injured
03-04: Murray Baron 0.65, Alexander Khavanov 0.31, Christian Backman 0.30
05-06: Jaroslav Spacek 0.83 (31 GP), Marc-Andre Bergeron 0.49
06-07: Sean O'Donnell 0.68, Scott Niedermayer 0.21
07-08 and on are available elsewhere online.

Pronger never played with a full-time, full-season partner for most of his career, until he was paired with Sean O'Donnell in Anaheim and then Matt Carle in Philadelphia.

The average quality of his partners was pretty low. When he was playing big minutes in St Louis in the late 90s, he and MacInnis often played almost all the minutes on the right side, and multiple lower-end defencemen would cycle through on the left side.

I remembered Jason Smith as his partner from 05-06, with the pairings Pronger-Smith and Spacek-Staios. But that was from the playoffs. It doesn't look like he played so much with Smith in the regular season. Also, I think 05-06 was his one prime season where he mostly played on the left side. He was also on the left side as a rookie with McCrimmon (who always played his off side on the right), but after that Pronger usually played the right side at even strength. Of course he would play the left when paired with MacInnis, as he did sometimes in key situations.

How much did Pronger play with the star forwards on his team?

93-94: Pronger-Verbeek 0.06
94-95: Pronger-Cassells 0.51
95-96: Pronger-Hull 0.60
96-97: Pronger-Turgeon 0.55
97-98: Pronger-Turgeon 0.49
98-99: Pronger-Demitra 0.53
99-00: Pronger-Turgeon 0.51
00-01: Pronger-Turgeon 0.28
01-02: Pronger-Tkachuk 0.35
02-03: Injured
03-04: Pronger-Tkachuk 0.56
05-06: Pronger-Horcoff 0.45
06-07: Pronger-Selanne 0.35

Pronger played a pretty decent amount with his star forwards. About what you would expect from a #1 defenceman.

 

[overpass]

Borje Salming

73-74: Ian Turnbull 0.85
74-75: Dave Dunn 0.65, Ian Turnbull 0.59, Brian Glennie 0.41
75-76: Dave Dunn 0.71, Ian Turnbull 0.63
76-77: Ian Turnbull 0.92, Claire Alexander 0.49
77-78: Brian Glennie 0.69, Randy Carlyle 0.56, Mike Pelyk 0.46 (Turnbull 0.08)
78-79: Dave Hutchison 0.52, Ron Wilson 0.46, Joel Quenneville 0.41
79-80: Dave Burrows 0.49, Quenneville 0.58 (32 GP), Richard Mulhern 0.54 (26 GP)
80-81: Viteszlav Duris 0.77, Barry Melrose 0.37, Ian Turnbull 0.27
81-82: Bob Manno 0.57, Jim Benning 0.36
82-83: Viteszlav Duris 0.81 (32 GP), Gaston Gingras 0.37 (45 GP), Jim Benning 0.28
83-84: Gary Nylund 0.87 (47 GP), Jim Korn 0.35, Bob Stewart 0.34
84-85: Jim Benning 0.48, Al Iafrate 0.32
85-86: Al Iafrate 0.51, Brad Maxwell 0.34, Gary Nylund 0.31
86-87: Bob McGill 0.51, Al Iafrate 0.47, Chris Kotsopoulos 0.38
87-88: Dale DeGray 0.61, Al Iafrate 0.31
88-89: Chris Kotsopoulos 0.38, Brad Marsh 0.35, Todd Gill 0.35

As a reminder, Salming was top-5 in Norris voting from the beginning of his career through 1979-80. Then he got a handful of Norris notes from 80-81 through 82-83, and none at all for the following seasons. He had a couple of big minus seasons in 83-84 and 84-85 before closing out his career with several seasons as a plus player on bad teams.

I knew Salming and Turnbull were partners during Salming's peak. I actually thought they were more regular partners, but this data shows they were only together for Salming's first four seasons, and then played primarily on separate pairings for the next four seasons. Even in their seasons together, Salming also played a fair bit with Dave Dunn. Maybe taking extra shifts in a five defenceman setup.

After those first four seasons, Salming really never had a regular partner, with the weird exception of Viteszlav Duris, an early Czechoslovak import with a short NHL career who apparently played almost his whole NHL career with Salming.

During the mid-80s, Salming spent some time baby-sitting young offensive d-men Jim Benning and Al Iafrate.

In his final three seasons, Salming still didn't have a regular full-season partner, but he finally started playing substantial time with a RHS partner. For most of his career, his partners were LHS.

How much did Salming play with the star forwards on his team?

73-74: Darryl Sittler 0.45
74-75: Darryl Sittler 0.67
75-76: Darryl Sittler 0.63
76-77: Darryl Sittler 0.65
77-78: Darryl Sittler 0.59
78-79: Darryl Sittler 0.58
79-80: Darryl Sittler 0.51
80-81: Darryl Sittler 0.61
81-82: Darryl Sittler 0.24
82-83: Rick Vaive 0.45
83-84: Rick Vaive 0.51
84-85: Rick Vaive 0.38
85-86: Rick Vaive 0.28
86-87: Rick Vaive 0.42
87-88: Ed Olczyk 0.28
88-89: Ed Olczyk 0.42

Salming and Darryl Sittler were definitely a thing the first half of Salming's career. Both Salming and Sittler's peaks lined up pretty well from 73-74 through 80-81. You'd have to think both Salming and Sittler got a boost from (probably) playing more than half their ice time together. And Lanny McDonald was on Sittler's wing for a few of those late-70s seasons.

The Leafs were ahead of their time. Many teams didn't really play their top offensive blueliners extra time with their top forwards until the 90s.

 

[overpass]

Scott Niedermayer

92-93: Scott Stevens 0.67
93-94: Tommy Albelin 0.43, Jaroslav Modry 0.39, Scott Stevens 0.38
94-95: Scott Stevens 0.32, Ken Daneyko 0.32
95-96: Phil Housley 0.61 (after trade deadline), Scott Stevens 0.31, Jason Smith 0.23
96-97: Jason Smith 0.42, Lyle Odelein 0.37
97-98: Brad Bombardir 0.45, Kevin Dean 0.40, Ken Daneyko 0.38
98-99: Brad Bombardir 0.59, Scott Stevens 0.55
99-00: Ken Daneyko 0.62, Lyle Odelein 0.40
00-01: Ken Daneyko 0.60, Colin White 0.48
01-02: Scott Stevens 0.44, Ken Daneyko 0.34
02-03: Colin White 0.65
03-04: Colin White 0.64, Paul Martin 0.33
05-06: Francois Beauchemin 0.82
06-07: Francois Beauchemin 0.77


Niedermayer got to play quite a bit with Scott Stevens as a rookie. For the next decade, his role in New Jersey was mostly to lead the second pairing behind Stevens. And then he broke out in the 2003 playoffs, won the Norris trophy in 03-04, and continued to be one of the very best defencemen in the world after the lockout.

Niedermayer didn't have a lot of stability in terms of regular partners under Jacques Lemaire. Under Ftorek, Robinson, and Burns, he played more regularly with Brad Bombardir, Ken Daneyko, and Colin White, with occasional stretches alongside Stevens. Niedermayer finally got to play with a regular partner for a full season in Anaheim, alongside Francois Beauchemin.

How much did Niedermayer play with the star forwards on his team?

92-93: Semak 0.46
93-94: Richer 0.57
94-95: Richer 0.33
95-96: Thomas 0.32
96-97: Andreychuk 0.35
97-98: Holik 0.38
98-99: Holik 0.12
99-00: Elias 0.47
00-01: Elias 0.16
01-02: Elias 0.32
02-03: Elias 0.33
03-04: Elias 0.27
05-06: Selanne 0.41
06-07: Selanne 0.52

Niedermayer didn't really play a lot with the top scoring forwards on his team. Rafalski and Stevens got more time with Elias.

And how much did he play with the top checkers?

93-94: Carpenter 0.39
94-95: Carpenter 0.05
95-96: Carpenter 0.45
96-97: Carpenter 0.20
97-98: Carpenter 0.14
98-99: Carpenter 0.56
99-00: Madden 0.34
00-01: Madden 0.35
01-02: Madden 0.41
02-03: Madden 0.08
03-04: Madden 0.55
05-06: Pahlsson 0.41
06-07: Pahlsson 0.36

I've already posted that Scott Stevens played a lot with Bobby Carpenter under Lemaire in the mid-late 90s. I would bet that both were playing a very defensive role. Niedermayer didn't play so much with Carpenter under Lemaire, but he appears to have played more with Carpenter in 98-99, Robbie Ftorek's first season as coach. Maybe Ftorek gave Niedermayer a more defensive role than Lemaire?

Niedermayer also played about as much with John Madden from 99-00 through 01-02 as Scott Stevens did. Stevens was less of a defensive specialist and was playing more balanced minutes when paired with Brian Rafalski.

Niedermayer actually appears to have played more with Madden than with Elias in his Norris winning 03-04 season. Not what I would have expected. Maybe his offensive breakout was just about getting more power play time.

Finally, he played pretty balanced minutes in Anaheim, per his numbers with Selanne and Pahlsson.

 

[overpass]

Slava Fetisov

89-90: Alexei Kasatonov 0.55, Bruce Driver 0.44, Sergei Starikov 0.27
90-91: Alexei Kasatonov 0.80, Ken Daneyko 0.35
91-92: Alexei Kasatonov 0.88
92-93: Alexei Kasatonov 0.85, Ken Daneyko 0.34, Bruce Driver 0.33
93-94: Jason Smith 0.56, Tommy Albelin 0.55, Jaroslav Modry 0.45
94-95 (DET, 14 GP): Bob Rouse 0.48, Mike Ramsey 0.44
95-96: Vladimir Konstantinov 0.79, Marc Bergevin 0.26
96-97: Vladimir Konstantinov 0.78, Bob Rouse 0.20
97-98: Jamie Pushor 0.64, Anders Erikssen 0.47

Fetisov was past his prime when he came to North America. After a lifetime of playing hockey in the Soviet system, he was lucky enough to play most of his NHL seasons partnered with a Soviet-trained defenceman.

In his first NHL season, he started off paired with fellow Russian NHL "rookie" Sergei Starikov. Starikov quickly washed out of the league, and Fetisov spent some time with Bruce Driver. Then, once his longtime partner Alexei Kasatonov came over to New Jersey in January 1989, Fetisov and Kasatonov resumed their partnership in the NHL.

Fetisov also spent two full seasons in Detroit paired primarily with Vladimir Konstantinov. For the remaining three seasons (93-94, 95, and 97-98), Fetisov was in and out of the lineup, playing on the bottom pairing with a revolving door of bottom pairing defencemen.

Did Fetisov play extra time with any particular forwards on his team? This question is particularly interesting for Fetisov because he spent nearly a decade playing in a five-man unit for CSKA Moscow and the USSR National team.

89-90: Patrick Sundstrom 0.50
90-91: John MacLean 0.48 (Stastny 0.21)
91-92: Peter Stastny 0.62
92-93: Alexander Semak 0.53
93-94: Stephane Richer 0.43
94-95 (DET, 14 GP): Steve Yzerman 0.32
95-96: Sergei Fedorov 0.62
96-97: Sergei Fedorov 0.66
97-98: Igor Larionov 0.52

For part of the 95-96 and the 96-97 seasons, Fetisov played as part of the Russian Five, with Konstantinov, Sergei Fedorov, Igor Larionov, and Slava Kozlov. And it looks like he still played a fair bit with Larionov in 97-98, even after the unit was broken up due to Konstantinov's tragic accident and Fedorov's holdout.

It looks like New Jersey also had a couple of seasons where they played him more often with a European centre - first Peter Stastny, and then Alexander Semak.

Of course it wasn't as regular as the Red Army Moscow Green Unit, but Fetisov did get paired with particular forwards to his advantage while in the NHL.

 

[overpass]

Sergei Zubov

92-93: Joe Cirella 0.70, James Patrick 0.36
93-94: Kevin Lowe 0.64, Brian Leetch 0.25
94-95: Kevin Lowe 0.72, Brian Leetch 0.38
95-96: Chris Tamer 0.66, Chris Joseph 0.36
96-97: Craig Ludwig 0.63, Darryl Sydor 0.41
97-98: Darryl Sydor 0.79, Shawn Chambers 0.29
98-99: Darryl Sydor 0.82, Shawn Chambers 0.29
99-00: Darryl Sydor 0.52, Richard Matvichuk 0.21
00-01: Richard Matvichuk 0.55, Darryl Sydor 0.53, Derian Hatcher 0.39
01-02: Darryl Sydor 0.63, John Erskine 0.37
02-03: Derian Hatcher 0.63, Darryl Sydor 0.34
03-04: Don Sweeney 0.67, Philippe Boucher 0.47
05-06: Philippe Boucher 0.53, Martin Skoula 0.27, Trevor Daley 0.24
06-07: Darryl Sydor 0.69, Jaroslav Modry 0.24

If you're looking for those rare pairings with two RHDs, it looks like Zubov was part of those at times. Particularly with Joe Cirella and Phillipe Boucher.

Darryl Sydor was Zubov's most frequent partner in Dallas. But Zubov started off his first season in Dallas with Craig Ludwig, and later paired with Richard Matvichuk and Derian Hatcher at times.

How much did Zubov play with the star forwards on his team?

92-93: Messier 0.29
93-94: Messier 0.45
94-95: Messier 0.41
95-96: Jagr 0.61, Lemieux 0.41
96-97: Modano 0.52
97-98: Modano 0.54
98-99: Modano 0.49
99-00: Modano 0.46
00-01: Modano 0.52
01-02: Modano 0.34
02-03: Modano 0.55
03-04: Modano 0.57
05-06: Modano 0.36
06-07: Modano 0.59

Overall, Zubov didn't play as much with his team's top forwards as you might expect from a player of his era and offensive reputation.

When he was with the Rangers, he and Brian Leetch were on separate pairings and had to share the offensive minutes. And when he was in Dallas playing for Ken Hitchcock, Zubov's correlations with Modano were basically equal to Derian Hatcher-Modano, suggesting they were playing a similar role at ES. Zubov appears to have played a more offensive role under Dave Tippett (02-03 on).

Zubov appears to have played a lot with Jagr's stacked line (Nedved-Francis-Jagr) in his one season in Pittsburgh. Dmitri Mironov played more with Lemieux.

Here are the correlations between Zubov and the top checkers in Dallas.

96-97: Carbonneau 0.42
97-98: Carbonneau 0.30
98-99: Carbonneau 0.19
99-00: Carbonneau 0.31
00-01: Muller 0.31
01-02: Muller 0.21

Derian Hatcher

91-92: Rob Ramage 0.55, Brian Glynn 0.46, Chris Dahlquist 0.42, Mark Tinordi 0.35
92-93: Mark Tinordi 0.77, Richard Matvichuk 0.21
93-94: Paul Cavallini 0.77, Mark Tinordi 0.32
94-95: Paul Cavallini 0.62, Grant Ledyard 0.35, Doug Zmolek 0.34, Kevin Hatcher 0.18
95-96: Doug Zmolek 0.50, Kevin Hatcher 0.46
96-97: Richard Matvichuk 0.80
97-98: Richard Matvichuk 0.61, Shawn Chambers 0.32
98-99: Richard Matvichuk 0.95
99-00: Richard Matvichuk 0.42, Darryl Sydor 0.24
00-01: Richard Matvichuk 0.60, Darryl Sydor 0.44, Sergei Zubov 0.39
01-02: Richard Matvichuk 0.74, Sami Helenius 0.36
02-03: Sergei Zubov 0.63, Stephane Robidas 0.30
03-04: Injured
05-06: Kim Johnsson 0.66, Eric Desjardins 0.50
06-07: Brayden Coburn 0.78 (after late season trade), Alexandre Picard 0.37, Alexei Zhitnik 0.24

Hatcher is remembered for playing with Richard Matvichuk and with good reason. They were together for all or part of six straight seasons.

Earlier in Hatcher's career, he partnered with Mark Tinordi and Paul Cavallini. And yes, he played about half a season with his brother Kevin.

The Minnesota team that Hatcher joined was extremely left-handed on the blueline, with very few RHS before they added Kevin Hatcher. Derian Hatcher played the right side while paired with Matvichuk, and I believe he spend much of his career playing the right side as a LHS. In 2002-03, Dallas brought in Philippe Boucher and Stephane Robidas to balance their blueline with equal RHS and LHS. This broke up the Matvichuk-Hatcher pairing, and Hatcher played most of the 02-03 season on a stacked first pairing with Zubov. Playing with Zubov likely helped Hatcher be a post-season second team all star for the first and only time in his career.

How much did Hatcher play with the star forwards on his team?

91-92: Modano 0.19
92-93: Modano 0.19
93-94: Modano 0.38
94-95: Modano 0.13
95-96: Modano 0.42
96-97: Modano 0.46
97-98: Modano 0.61
98-99: Modano 0.44
99-00: Modano 0.48
00-01: Modano 0.57
01-02: Modano 0.52
02-03: Modano 0.36
03-04: Injured
05-06: Forsberg 0.22
06-07: Gagne 0.23

Hatcher played very defensive minutes at the beginning of his career and at the end of his career, rarely playing with his team's top line. But he played a fair bit with Mike Modano's line at his peak in Dallas.

Here are the correlations between Hatcher and the top checkers in Dallas.

96-97: Carbonneau 0.42
97-98: Carbonneau 0.30
98-99: Carbonneau 0.19
99-00: Carbonneau 0.31
00-01: Muller 0.31
01-02: Muller 0.21

During the Ken Hitchcock years in Dallas when Zubov and Hatcher were the Stars top defencemen (96-97 to 01-02), Zubov and Hatcher played a similar amount of time with Modano's line. This is particularly notable because the Stars relied heavily on Modano's line to drive a lot of their positive plus-minus.

Here's a simple average of the seasonal correlations for these seasons:

Modano-D. Hatcher: 0.51
Modano-Zubov: 0.48

And a simple average of the correlations with the top checkers (first Carbonneau and then Hitchcock) for those seasons.

D. Hatcher-checkers: 0.32
Zubov-checkers: 0.29

Very little difference either way. I would say the two had a very similar role at even strength, both in minutes and also in the players they played with.

This may be one way in which Zubov was "held back" offensively under Hitchcock. He didn't get the normal #1 defenceman extra minutes with the top line. Instead, he played a more balanced minutes distribution with all lines.

 

[overpass]

We're arguably past the point of discussing the "greats" but I'll hit a few more prominent teams/defencemen between 1960-2007.

First, I'll look at three Cup contenders from the 70s who didn't have Hall of Fame defencemen. The early 70s Chicago Blackhawks, the mid-late 70s Buffalo Sabres, and the mid-late 70s Philadelphia Flyers.

Chicago Blackhawks 69-70
Doug Jarrett - Keith Magnuson 0.76
Pat Stapleton - Doug Mohns 0.73
Pat Stapleton - Gilles Marotte 0.69
The Hawks added Bill White late in the season, after Stapleton was already out for the year.
Doug Mohns - Bill White 0.81

Chicago Blackhawks 70-71
Pat Stapleton - Bill White 0.80
Doug Jarrett - Keith Magnuson 0.74
Jerry Korab - Keith Magnuson 0.61 (partly while Jarrett was injured)

Chicago Blackhawks 71-72
Pat Stapleton - Bill White 0.89
Doug Jarrett - Keith Magnuson 0.86

Chicago Blackhawks 72-73
Pat Stapleton - Bill White 0.75
Doug Jarrett - Keith Magnuson 0.46
Phil Russell - Keith Magnuson 0.43, Phil Russell - Doug Jarrett 0.47

Chicago Blackhawks 73-74
Dick Redmond - Bill White 0.78 (Stapleton had left for the WHA)
Doug Jarrett - Keith Magnuson 0.63
Phil Russell - White 0.42, Jarrett 0.37, Leonard Frig 0.36, Redmond 0.20

Stapleton-White is the famous pairing from the Hawks, and Jarrett-Magnuson was another regular pairing from these teams. There was also a Stapleton-Mohns pairing from before White joined the Hawks, and a Redmond-White pairing after Stapleton left.

Philadelphia Flyers 72-73
Joe Watson - Ed van Impe 0.78
Andre Dupont - Barry Ashbee 0.73
Tom Bladon - Wayne Hillman 0.48
Hillman - Ashbee 0.65

Philadelphia Flyers 73-74
Joe Watson - Tom Bladon 0.74
Andre Dupont - Barry Ashbee 0.79
Jim Watson - Ed van Impe 0.74

Philadelphia Flyers 74-75
Andre Dupont - Joe Watson 0.70
Jim Watson - Ed van Impe 0.85
Ted Harris - Tom Bladon 0.61

Philadelphia Flyers 75-76
Joe Watson - Tom Bladon 0.86
Jim Watson - Ed van Impe 0.67
Andre Dupont - Larry Goodenough 0.80

Philadelphia Flyers 76-77
Joe Watson - Tom Bladon 0.78
Andre Dupont - Larry Goodenough 0.78
Jim Watson: Bob Dailey 0.71, Jack McIlhargey 0.60 (McIlhargey was traded for Dailey mid-season)

Philadelphia Flyers 77-78
Rick Lapointe - Tom Bladon 0.79
Joe Watson - Kevin McCarthy 0.87
Jim Watson - Bob Dailey 0.71

Philadelphia Flyers 78-79
Pairings were all over the place this season

Philadelphia Flyers 79-80
Jim Watson - Mike Busniak 0.76
Frank Bathe - Bob Dailey 0.68
Andre Dupont - Behn Wilson 0.37
Norm Barnes - Behn Wilson 0.43
Norm Barnes - Frank Bathe 0.47

The Flyers had pretty regular seasonal pairings on their great mid-70s teams, but those seasonal pairings often changed from year to year.

Ed van Impe played a season with Joe Watson, and then three with Jim Watson.
Andre Dupont played two seasons with Barry Ashbee, then with Joe Watson, then Larry Goodenough.
Jim Watson played his first three seasons with van Impe, then paired with Bob Dailey
Tom Bladon played the most with Joe Watson, but also with Ted Harris and Rick Lapointe.
Joe Watson played seasons with van Impe, Bladon, Dupont, and Kevin McCarthy.

Buffalo Sabres 74-75
Jim Schoenfeld - Jerry Korab 0.87
Bill Hajt - Jocelyn Guevremont 0.84
Larry Carriere - Lee Fogolin 0.51

Buffalo Sabres 75-76
Jim Schoenfeld - Jerry Korab 0.87
Bill Hajt - Jocelyn Guevremont 0.78
Lee Fogolin - Korab 0.58, Schoenfeld 0.41
Peter McIntosh - Schoenfeld 0.66, Guevremont 0.46, Hajt 0.44

Buffalo Sabres 76-77
Jim Schoenfeld - Jerry Korab 0.62
Bill Hajt - Jocelyn Guevremont 0.71
Lee Fogolin - Hajt 0.54
Ken Breitenbach - Schoenfeld 0.52, Korab 0.31

Buffalo Sabres 77-78
Jim Schoenfeld - Jerry Korab 0.41
Bill Hajt - Jocelyn Guevremont 0.51
Lee Fogolin - Hajt 0.42, Schoenfeld 0.34

Buffalo Sabres 78-79
Jim Schoenfeld - Bill Stewart 0.86
Jerry Korab - Lee Fogolin 0.66
Bill Hajt - Jocelyn Guevremont 0.46

Buffalo Sabres 79-80
Jim Schoenfeld - John van Boxmeer 0.74
Larry Playfair - Jerry Korab 0.50
Bill Hajt - Richie Dunn 0.63
Mike Ramsey - Larry Playfair 1.00 (Ramsey joined the Sabres for the last 13 GP after the 1980 Olympics, and he and Playfair had exactly the same plus-minus for each one of those 13 GP.)

Forwards/D combos (these stood out for this one season in particular).

Gilbert Perreault: van Boxmeer 0.59, Schoenfeld 0.53
Don Luce: Hajt 0.70, Dunn 0.62
Derek Smith: Korab 0.73, Playfair 0.63, Ramsey 0.87

Buffalo Sabres 80-81
Jim Schoenfeld - John van Boxmeer 0.81
Bill Hajt - Richie Dunn 0.79
Mike Ramsey - Larry Playfair 0.63

Schoenfeld-Korab and Hajt-Guevremont were regular pairings on the Sabres for several years in the 70s. Lee Fogolin started as the fifth defenceman, and then moved up as Guevremont slipped out of the lineup. Late in the 70s, Schoenfeld-Korab was broken up, and Schoenfeld paired with first Bill Stewart and then John van Boxmeer. Korab played with Fogolin and then Larry Playfair. And finally, Mike Ramsey played with Larry Playfair, and Bill Hajt played with Richie Dunn.

I haven't listed F-D correlations because most team's weren't doing anything special in the 70s, and nothing stands out in the numbers I ran. The one exception is Scotty Bowman's first season in Buffalo, 1979-80, where it looks like Scotty sent Schoenfeld-Boxmeer out a lot with Gilbert Perreault, Hajt-Dunn played a lot with Don Luce (likely in a defensive role), and Korab-Playfair and Ramsey-Playfair played a lot with Derek Smith.

 

[overpass]

Another 4 lower-end HHOFers from the 80s.

Doug Wilson

77-78: Dale Tallon 0.61, Bob Murray 0.44, Keith Magnuson 0.41
78-79: Doug Hicks 0.57, Phil Russell 0.32, Mike O'Connell 0.31
79-80: Keith Brown 0.48, Bob Murray 0.33, Mike O'Connell 0.33
80-81: Keith Brown 0.58, Bob Murray 0.43, Dave Hutchison 0.37
81-82: Dave Hutchison 0.67, Keith Brown 0.39 (33 GP), Doug Crossman 0.34
82-83: Bob Murray 0.90
83-84: Bob Murray 0.87
84-85: Bob Murray 0.62, Jack O'Callahan 0.38
85-86: Jack O'Callahan 0.70, Bob Murray 0.45
86-87: Jack O'Callahan 0.71, Dave Manson 0.36
87-88: Bob McGill 0.53, Bob Murray 0.46
88-89: Dave Manson 0.43, Steve Konroyd 0.31
89-90: Dave Manson 0.68, Bob McGill 0.22
90-91: Bob McGill 0.51, Keith Brown 0.49, Chris Chelios 0.41

Wilson played with several different partners. Bob Murray was maybe the most frequent, but Wilson and Murray spent more time apart than together in their decade in Chicago.

Dave Hutchison was his most frequent partner in his Norris-winning season.
Other names that came up several times are Keith Brown, Bob McGill, and Dave Manson.

How much did Wilson play with the top scorers on his team?

77-78: Ivan Boldirev 0.52
78-79: Ivan Boldirev 0.44
79-80: Tom Lysiak 0.34
80-81: Tom Lysiak 0.59, Denis Savard 0.27
81-82: Denis Savard 0.53
82-83: Denis Savard 0.29
83-84: Denis Savard 0.20
84-85: Denis Savard 0.40
85-86: Denis Savard 0.78
86-87: Denis Savard 0.67
87-88: Denis Savard 0.58
88-89: Denis Savard 0.56
89-90: Denis Savard 0.47
90-91: Jeremy Roenick 0.38

Some interesting numbers with Wilson and Denis Savard. Honestly I would have expected Wilson and Savard to play together more. But when Orval Tessier was coaching from 82-83 to 84-85, they may have even been split up more than you would expect. And then Bob Pulford in 85-86 and 86-87 really sent Wilson and Savard out a lot together, but it didn't seem to boost their stats. Maybe Tessier was on to something by separating them more.

77-78: Jack Marks 0.46
78-79: Jack Marks 0.34
79-80: Jack Marks 0.34
80-81: Jack Marks 0.03
81-82: Bill Gardner 0.05
82-83: Bill Gardner 0.27
83-84: Rick Paterson 0.44
84-85: Troy Murray 0.30
85-86: Troy Murray 0.26
86-87: Troy Murray 0.15
87-88: Brian Noonan 0.60
88-89: Mike Eagles 0.36
89-90: Troy Murray 0.38
90-91: Dirk Graham 0.59

Wilson actually played a fair bit with the checkers while Mike Keenan was coaching. Not what I expected, considering the way things ended with Keenan refusing to play Wilson and saying the league had passed him by.


Rod Langway

78-79: Guy Lapointe 0.57, Giles Lupien 0.39, Brian Engblom 0.36
79-80: Gaston Gingras 0.53, Larry Robinson 0.41, Brian Engblom 0.34
80-81: Brian Engblom 0.58, Gaston Gingras 0.55, Larry Robinson 0.34
81-82: Brian Engblom 0.89, Larry Robinson 0.30
82-83: Randy Holt 0.53, Timo Blomquist 0.42
83-84: Larry Murphy 0.75, Darren Veitch 0.55
84-85: Mike McEwen 0.67, Larry Murphy 0.33
85-86: Kevin Hatcher 0.52, Larry Murphy 0.32
86-87: Kevin Hatcher 0.56, Greg Smith 0.39, John Blum 0.28
87-88: Greg Smith 0.69, Kevin Hatcher 0.48, Larry Murphy 0.26
88-89: Neil Sheehy 0.53, Kevin Hatcher 0.39
89-90: Kevin Hatcher 0.54, Neil Sheehy 0.19
90-91: Al Iafrate 0.45/Bob Rouse 0.43, Mikhail Tatarinov 0.38, Kevin Hatcher 0.30
91-92: Al Iafrate 0.57, Sylvain Cote 0.26

Langway played a full season with Brian Engblom in 81-82, his final season in Montreal before they were both traded to Washington. Both were LHS and Engblom played the right side.

In Langway's first season in Washington, he was usually paired with one of the weaker defencemen on the team, not with Engblom. In his second season, they traded for Murphy and Langway won his second Norris trophy with Murphy on his right side. In his remaining Washington seasons, he never really had a full-season partner, he usually spent time with two or three right defencemen.

How much did Langway play with the best scorers and best checking forwards on his team? Honestly it's not too easy to pick out a trend here. Possibly because of the way the Washington club ran their team, with forward depth rather than loading up one scoring line, and a deep and balanced defence corps. You can see the David Poile style.

78-79: Guy Lafleur 0.42
79-80: Guy Lafleur 0.40
80-81: Guy Lafleur 0.49
81-82: Guy Lafleur 0.51
82-83: Dennis Maruk 0.21
83-84: Mike Gartner 0.39
84-85: Bob Carpenter 0.53
85-86: Alan Haworth 0.29
86-87: Mike Gartner 0.31
87-88: Mike Gartner 0.38
88-89: Mike Ridley 0.31
89-90: Geoff Courtnall 0.51
90-91: Mike Ridley 0.57
91-92: Dino Ciccarelli 0.07

Langway did play a fair bit with checkers Bobby Gould and Kelly Miller in Washington.

78-79: Bob Gainey 0.18
79-80: Bob Gainey 0.38
80-81: Bob Gainey 0.35
81-82: Bob Gainey 0.39
82-83: Bobby Gould 0.24
83-84: Bobby Gould 0.48
84-85: Bobby Gould 0.44
85-86: Bobby Gould 0.40
86-87: Bobby Gould 0.54
87-88: Bobby Gould 0.57
88-89: Dale Hunter 0.34
89-90: Kelly Miller 0.38
90-91: Kelly Miller 0.63
91-92: Kelly Miller 0.45


Larry Murphy

80-81: Dave Lewis 0.86
81-82: Dave Lewis 0.62, Mark Hardy 0.46, Jerry Korab 0.45, Ian Turnbull 0.42
82-83: Dave Lewis 0.47, Jay Wells 0.40
83-84: Rod Langway 0.75, Scott Stevens 0.41
84-85: Peter Andersson 0.40, Rod Langway 0.33, Scott Stevens 0.33
85-86: Peter Andersson 0.39, Rod Langway 0.32, Scott Stevens 0.27
86-87: Scott Stevens 0.72, John Barrett 0.22
87-88: Scott Stevens 0.40, Greg Smith 0.35. Rod Langway 0.26
88-89 (WAS): Scott Stevens 0.68
89-90: Ville Siren 0.60, Mark Tinordi 0.35
90-91 (MNS): Brian Glynn 0.80, Mark Tinordi 0.33
90-91 (PIT): Gordie Roberts 0.80, Paul Coffey 0.33
91-92: Ulf Samuelsson 0.59, Gordie Roberts 0.49, Paul Coffey 0.36
92-93: Jim Paek 0.38, Ulf Samuelsson 0.31
93-94: Mike Ramsey 0.48, Peter Taglianetti 0.43, Ulf Samuelsson 0.36
94-95: Grant Jennings 0.73, Chris Joseph 0.49, Francois Leroux 0.45
95-96: Kenny Jonsson 0.80, Todd Gill 0.24
96-97: Rob Zettler 0.51, Jamie Macoun 0.38, Dave Ellett 0.31
97-98: Nicklas Lidstrom 0.84
98-99: Nicklas Lidstrom 0.92
99-00: Nicklas Lidstrom 0.66, Jiri Fischer 0.27
00-01: Steve Duchesne 0.51, Nicklas Lidstrom 0.46

Murphy broke into the league with an excellent rookie season, in a very good situation where Bob Berry let him play skilled possession hockey, while playing a lot with the Triple Crown line, and with veteran Dave Lewis as a full season partner.
After Murphy was traded to Washington, he was the main partner for Rod Langway during Langway's second Norris-winning season. Murphy was then paired with Scott Stevens during Murphy's first postseason all-star season in 1986-87.

In Pittsburgh, Murphy started by playing with Gordie Roberts, then also played with Ulf Samuelsson, Jim Paek, Peter Taglianetti, and Mike Ramsey. In his third postseason all-star season of 1994-95, Grant Jennings was his main partner.

In Toronto, Murphy was paired with Kenny Jonsson before Jonsson was traded away. And in Detroit, he had his most well-known pairing with Nicklas Lidstrom, winning his third and fourth Stanley Cups.

80-81: Marcel Dionne 0.62
81-82: Marcel Dionne 0.39
82-83: Marcel Dionne 0.33
83-84: Mike Gartner 0.53
84-85: Bob Carpenter 0.52
85-86: Alan Haworth 0.22
86-87: Mike Gartner 0.46
87-88: Mike Gartner 0.32
88-89: Mike Ridley 0.30
89-90: Brian Bellows 0.51
90-91 (MNS): Dave Gagner 0.45
90-91 (PIT): Mario Lemieux 0.39, Mark Recchi 0.44
91-92: Mario Lemieux 0.55, Ron Francis 0.52
92-93: Mario Lemieux 0.71
93-94: Jaromir Jagr 0.55, Mario Lemieux 0.64
94-95: Jaromir Jagr 0.20
95-96: Mats Sundin 0.45
96-97: Mats Sundin 0.51
97-98: Steve Yzerman 0.53
98-99: Steve Yzerman 0.62, Sergei Fedorov 0.50
99-00: Steve Yzerman 0.50, Sergei Fedorov 0.50
00-01: Steve Yzerman 0.52, Sergei Fedorov 0.44

Murphy got to play a lot with Dionne and the Triple Crown line in his rookie season, playing for Bob Berry. But after that, he didn't get particularly high playing time with star forwards until he got to play with Mario Lemieux in Pittsburgh. In Murphy's all-star 1992-93 he played a lot with Mario - but then in his 1994-95 all-star season, he doesn't seem to have played a lot with Jagr.

In Detroit, he and Lidstrom played a lot with Steve Yzerman.

80-81: Dan Bonar 0.39
81-82: Dan Bonar 0.27
82-83: Terry Ruskowski 0.44
83-84: Bobby Gould 0.49
84-85: Bobby Gould 0.37
85-86: Bobby Gould 0.23
86-87: Bobby Gould 0.17
87-88: Bobby Gould 0.34
88-89: Dale Hunter 0.18
89-90: Stewart Gavin 0.10
90-91 (MNS): Stewart Gavin -0.57
90-91 (PIT): Bryan Trottier 0.42
91-92: Bryan Trottier 0.21
92-93: Dave Tippett 0.13
93-94: Bryan Trottier 0.48
94-95: Shawn McEachern 0.31
95-96: ??
96-97: Kirk Muller 0.33
97-98: Kris Draper 0.29
98-99: Kris Draper 0.19
99-00: Kris Draper 0.16
00-01: Kris Draper -0.04

It doesn't look like Murphy played a lot with the checkers on his team, except when he was paired with Langway in Washington.

Phil Housley

82-83: Hannu Virta 0.42, Bill Hajt 0.39, Mike Ramsey 0.27
83-84: Bill Hajt 0.65, Mike Ramsey 0.40, Hannu Virta 0.31
84-85: Hannu Virta 0.39, Mike Ramsey 0.31
85-86: Bill Hajt 0.37, Steve Dykstra 0.30, Mike Ramsey 0.24
86-87: Steve Dykstra 0.63, Joe Reekie 0.47
87-88: Lindy Ruff 0.55
88-89: Doug Bodger 0.40
89-90: Doug Bodger 0.64
90-91: Randy Carlyle 0.46, Teppo Numminen 0.31
91-92: Randy Carlyle 0.75, Teppo Numminen 0.32
92-93: Teppo Numminen 0.47, Igor Ulanov 0.34
93-94: mostly injured
94-95: Dan Keczma 0.74 (23 GP), Steve Chiasson 0.67 (40 GP)
95-96 (CGY): Jamie Huscroft 0.59, Steve Chiasson 0.27
96-97: Sylvain Cote 0.57, Brendan Witt 0.38
97-98: Mark Tinordi 0.65, Brendan Witt 0.26
98-99: Todd Simpson 0.49, Steve Smith 0.27
99-00: Tommy Albelin 0.56, Robyn Regehr 0.35
00-01: Denis Gauthier 0.52, Brad Werenka 0.49, Tony Lydman 0.38, Robyn Regehr 0.37
01-02: Jon Klemm 0.52, Boris Mironov 0.30
02-03: Nathan Dempsey 0.64, Lyle Odelein 0.49

I don't have a lot to say. Just all over the place. Housley played on a lot of teams and with a lot of partners, rarely with the same guy for a full season.

I think he played a lot on the right side, especially early on in Buffalo, but he also played with some RHS like Numminen, Huscroft, Cote, Klemm, and Dempsey. Definitely a guy who played both sides, maybe tending toward the right side early on and the left side later in his career.

How much did Housley play with the top forwards on his team? A fair bit, but not as much as I expected for an out and out offensive defenceman. Especially his 92-93 season with Selanne, I would have bet that number would have been higher.

82-83: Gilbert Perreault 0.63
83-84: Gilbert Perreault 0.55
84-85: Gilbert Perreault 0.48
85-86: Dave Andreychuk 0.38
86-87: Dave Andreychuk 0.37
87-88: Dave Andreychuk 0.39
88-89: Pierre Turgeon 0.43
89-90: Pierre Turgeon 0.56
90-91: Thomas Steen 0.57
91-92: Ed Olczyk 0.47
92-93: Teemu Selanne 0.50
93-94: mostly injured
94-95: Theo Fleury 0.54
95-96 (CGY): Theo Fleury 0.56
96-97: Peter Bondra 0.52
97-98: Adam Oates 0.27, Peter Bondra 0.45
98-99: Theo Fleury 0.51
99-00: Valeri Bure 0.66
00-01: Jarome Iginla 0.42
01-02: Tony Amonte 0.58
02-03: Steve Sullivan 0.40