Upgrade your account today to enjoy the forums ad-free.
Click here to upgrade: Account Upgrades

D Cale Makar - UMass (Amherst), NCAA (2017, 4th, COL)

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by KillEmAll83, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. AppsSyl

    AppsSyl Registered User

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,066
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Lol, Good pull. First off I don't hate any prospect. As you can see I have been pretty consistent with my posts. My posts reflect that I can't understand the ridiculous hype for him given he played in an inferior league last year and has been average in the NCAA (as you can seen from my last post) this year. He actually wasn't very good in the summer showcase outside of one game, and he beat up on Slovakia, Switzerland and Denmark for 5 of his 8 pts in the WJC, was used in a sheltered role ES and as a PP specialist on a offensive juggernaut team Canada. He had a lot more difficulty against top teams (no points against Finland or Sweden and one against the USA). He was only trusted to play 8:31 in the Gold Medal game. In the US game he played 9:27. Clearly the coach didn't trust him at ES and defensively.

    And yes I do compare him to the defenseman my team drafted, because at the draft they were both viewed as having a lot of offensive upside and risk attached to them. I am trying to understand how given their seasons one can be touted as the next Karlsson by many on here, but the other as half decent or the frequent "drafted where he should have been" comment.

    It is funny that you quote my other posts, but don't actually quote the March 1st (last year, when he was flying up the rankings) post where you make me seem contradictory saying I said he was a "great prospect" without putting the rest of the quote. The full quote reads,
    "He seems like a great prospect, I just wish I could see him against other top prospects to get a real handle on how good he really is. The U18's will be a good chance to evaluate him against top talent." Anyone who reads the quote can see that I am saying that he seems great, but I haven't seen a ton of him at that point, and I wanted to see him against top talent.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
    Walshy7 likes this.
  2. Icebreakers

    Icebreakers Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    4,995
    Likes Received:
    261
    Trophy Points:
    94
    This guys like the D version of Middlestadt. Crazy skill with sub par numbers, and both late birthdays that should have probably been in the NCAA last year.
     
  3. Eltuna

    Eltuna Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Gender:
    Male
    The point is, you only bring up Makar when trying to belittle him as a player, despite not watching him in the NCAA. It’s blind hate. How can you possibly have an opinion on him or say Liljegren is better when you haven’t seen 98% of his games? You refuse to listen to scouts opinions (pretty much consensus he’s better than Liljegren, some teams had him 1st overall even) but haven’t actually watched him yourself to make an informed opinion. Especially considering the 2% you did watch, Makar was better than Liljegren. The fact you only post about a defensive gaffe in the gold medal game says it all, especially when Makar wasn’t the only one to make a mistake on that play. Makar had the most points in the tournament despite very limited ice time. His coaches (the ones you say didn’t like him) voted him as one of Canada’s top three players. He also made the all star team of the tournament. Team Canada executives also clearly liked what they saw, since Makar was the only player on that team to get an Olympic invite.

    He was unquestionably better than Liljegren at the tournament, if that’s the only hockey of his that you have seen, how can you possibly view Liljegren as a better prospect? Just looking at his NCAA stats without watching the games can only get you so far, he’s posting very similar numbers to McAvoy last year, how’s his offence looking in the NHl? You admit ignorance but still refuse knowaldge from people that have actually watched him play.

    You say you compare him to Liljegren because of how they were viewed at the draft, but they weren’t compared back then, one was very clearly preferred by every scout polled. It’s very obvious, even from the post I’m currently quoting, your Makar hate isn’t based on his play, because you haven’t watched him. Your hate is based around jealousy, you yearn for other people to view Liljegren like they view Makar, and it bothers you everyone prefers the other teams guy. When I was a child, I had what I believed to be this awesome new toy, I was so excited to bring it to school and show it off! To my surprise however, another kid brought an even better toy to school that day, nobody even cared about my sweet new beyblade stadium! All they cared about was him, and his dumb new box of Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Yu-Gi-Oh was new at the time, and I wasn’t into it yet, I couldn’t understand why everybody liked his toy but not mine. I had these feelings without even knowing anything about Yu-Gi-Oh, I just knew I was mad and didn’t like the kid anymore. What made matters worse, was that a couple years prior, nobody even cared about his toy, at the time everybody liked Beyblades, if I brought my toy back then, everybody would have agreed with me that it was awesome. Unfortunately, in the coming years, people started to see the deficiencies in Beyblades game, and the kids started liking Yu-Gi-Ohs game better. Eventually, I played Yu-Gi-Oh, and it was exquisite, I realized my mistake, my eyes burned with the ignorance of my past. Looking back I can’t blame myself for feeling the way I did, I was only a stupid, ignorant child.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
    hooverdam and 99664987 like this.
  4. AppsSyl

    AppsSyl Registered User

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,066
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Lol...We are on a discussion forum, largely centered on discussing prospects. A big part of discussion is comparison. To get a measure of something you usually compare it to something else that it is similar to. Makar and Liljegren are the two most similar comparables to one another, so when judging and comparing either of them, the best comparable at this point is one another. I am high on Liljegren, like many on here are high on Makar. I am not hiding the fact that I am critical of Makar, because I just don't see how he is the better prospect, let alone the way-better prospect. I just don't understand how one can be ridiculously hyped so much, while the other is constantly **** on, other than because of who they were drafted by. It is funny how bad all Leaf prospects get torched on here, but when criticism goes the other way some are so emotional (you brought up a and up a Yu-Gi-Oh/Beyblades story from your childhood for godsake)and up in arms like yourself.

    It was actually your post in the Liljegren thread a few days ago, where you felt the need point out how much better Makar's upside was that drew me into this thread to read the last few pages to see if I was missing something about his season and performance, when I read the post I quoted initially about him "dominating the NCAA," which I in turn with evidence showed was not in fact the case.

    Just curious, how many UMASS-Amherst games have you actually watched? Or games he played in the AJHL to justify your absolute sureness of his greater upside? My guess is not many, which makes you a hypocrite. Also, I am pretty sure McAvoy was many times better defensively (as evidenced this year in the NHL) than Makar to go along with his point totals, which were still 20% higher.

    We will have to agree to disagree. I respect your opinion on the two prospects, but I obviously don't agree with it.

    Also, in the WJC, I don't believe Team Canada's coaches are the ones who vote their own players. I am pretty sure it is media.
     
  5. Eltuna

    Eltuna Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Gender:
    Male
    Liljegren should be compared to Brannstrom, and Makar to Heiskanen. I have watched less than 5 UMass games this year, with 3 of those only being recent playoff games. The difference between you and I, is that I defer to professional scouts opinions, as I am not informed enough to create a polished critique of my own. There’s nothing hypocritical of admitting your own deficiencies and allowing experienced scouts to bend your opinion.

    I listen to his coach praise him, I listen to opposing coaches say he could easily be in the NHl this year, I read posts from UMass fans describing his play as dominant. I don’t then look at the box score and make my opinion based off of numbers. I am perfectly willing to admit when my knowledge has gaps, and that I need to listen to others that have a greater wealth of information. Of coarse he has a higher upside, the only reason he was drafted so high was his upside. He had no experience playing against strong competition, and was older than many others in his draft year, yet was in consideration for 1st overall. That doesn’t mean he will be better, but if both hit their absolute ceiling, do you honestly think Liljegren is comparable to Makar? He has intelligence, Speed, Skill, and confidence in spades. Go watch his highlights from a week ago, do you still not get why everybody thinks his upside is sky high? Are all of the professional scouts that gush over Makars upside wrong? Upside is different from a projection. Your first paragraph absolutely shows how you’re just like me as a child, you don’t hate Makar, you hate how the scouts like him better than Liljegren. Until you can admit that and your ignorance of his actual playing ability, your opinion on him is completely meaningless. It’s not my opinion you need to respect, I’m nobody. What you need to respect is the opinion of people that watch him everyday, which is something you haven’t been able to do due to insecurities.

    I’m almost positive it’s team coaches and management that decide their three top players by the way.
     
  6. Tralfamadore

    Tralfamadore Don't Panic.

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    235
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Many Toronto people turned on Maker as soon Timmy was drafted by the Leafs. Just more of the same. Insecure fanbase trying to pump up their own players by depreciating others.
     
    avsfan09 likes this.
  7. AppsSyl

    AppsSyl Registered User

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,066
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Again, I don't hate or have "blind hate" for any prospect.

    I have never disputed Makar's upside. He has a high ceiling. In fact I said as much in the Liljegren thread, when I said that he and Makar have similar upsides (which they do), which prompted your post that their upsides are not close, in that thread that started this whole thing. It is like my comment that they have similar upsides insulted you or something. My issue with Makar isn't his ceiling, it is that I don't think he ends up reaching it.

    I am not sure in what world you think Makar's best comparable is Heiskanen. They are completely different players. Heiskanen's two-way play and production in a professional men's league dwarfs that of an average season in the NCAA for as of now an almost strictly offensive defenseman. They may have been drafted one pick apart, but at this point they are far apart.

    Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I respect your opinion, you obviously don't respect mine. Time will tell in the end what kind of careers the two prospects carve out and who ends up with the better career.

    I think we have said all we need to say at this point to each other given that we are both pretty entrenched in our views, and we will have to see what the future holds.
     
  8. Goulet17

    Goulet17 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,760
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Why come over here to say that a particular prospect is overrated? Does it make you feel better about Liljegren in some way? Perhaps more secure in your opinion? Some degree of validation?

    I guess I don't really understand the motivation or the point.
     
  9. AppsSyl

    AppsSyl Registered User

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,066
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Eltuna (an Avs fan, judging by his post history) came into the Liljegren thread a few days ago, and seemed to take offence to a comment that in which I stated that the two players have a similar upside (I know huge insult isn't it). I came over here to read and see if there was something I was missing that Makar had done to warrant such a comment as seemingly absurd.

    I then read a number of Karlsson this and Karlsson that posts, and a post that said, "Makar is dominating the NCAA." I found that interesting, so I took the time to look and see, since that is a pretty bold statement. If true it would also explain perhaps the arrogance towards Makar's superior upside as compared to Liljegren, which I will remind you was the beginning of this. I simply posted the actual evidence that I found which showed otherwise. So no I wasn't simply coming over here unprovoked and posting things, and what I did post with the comparative statistics is perhaps actual useful information for those interested in how Makar is actually producing statistically compared to his 2017 drafted peers in the NCAA.
     
  10. lawrence

    lawrence Registered User

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    6,320
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    94
    it was one game into the wjc, Liljegren apparently looked good, Makar was in the doghouse for team canada, which gave them the green light, (they gave themselves the green light) that all of a sudden Liljegren was better then Makar who was the 4th pick, 17th pick being better then the 4th pick automatically gave Liljegren top 5 value in a redraft, mind boggling as usual on hfboards especially from that fan base who has a history of dumping on other prospects.
     
    cgf likes this.
  11. lawrence

    lawrence Registered User

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    6,320
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    94
    double post
     
  12. a mangy Meowth

    a mangy Meowth Goat Lender

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    6,107
    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Location:
    Denver
    Makar is an amazing prospect and that's all that matters.

    Who gives a **** about Liljegren. Stop discussing this irrelevant player in this thread.
     
    cg98, cgf, Avalanche and 4 others like this.
  13. Pierce Hawthorne

    Pierce Hawthorne Formerly Avsare1

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Messages:
    18,174
    Likes Received:
    2,664
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Caverns of Draconis
    :laugh: the guy hasn't watched a single game from Makar this year and tried to devalue his dominant WJC.

    No point in feeding the troll. We know how good Makar is.
     
  14. Castle8130

    Castle8130 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    164
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Makar will most likely be a better player than lilly. Doing better right now
     
  15. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    38,800
    Likes Received:
    4,865
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Occupation:
    Browbeaten Bookkeeper
    Location:
    w/ Renley's Peach
    Now that we're done with this month's "liljegren is just as good, we swear!" spiel from leafs fans, let's get this back on track:
    There's some rumors that Makar wants to go back for his sophomore season.

    While Sakic is likely to want Makar to play out the rest of the year in the AHL on an ATO before signing his ELC for next season. I dunno if Cale will be ready to jump into the NHL to start next season, and I dunno if Sakic will be able to talk Makar into going pro without promising an NHL spot. So if the AHL isn't an option for Makar, then I think I'd rather him show he can dominate game-in-game-out at UMass before turning pro whenever their season ends...but he's a ridiculous talent and could play in the NHL tomorrow if he & the organization so wanted.
     
  16. 93LEAFS

    93LEAFS Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    19,667
    Likes Received:
    2,761
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto
    The big piece you can offer him is 10 NHL games this year, and that would be extremely hard to turn down. Even if he's sent down to the AHL next year, it activates his ELC and burns a year.

    I don't think you guys would be that aggressive though because it is not like you are just playing out the tail-end of a season and can gift a roster spot.
     
  17. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    38,800
    Likes Received:
    4,865
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Occupation:
    Browbeaten Bookkeeper
    Location:
    w/ Renley's Peach
    With the expansion draft on the horizon, Joe can't sign him to his ELC until after this season. It'll probably take an NHL promise like Jost got last summer, and I dunno if that's best for Makar's development.
     
  18. tigervixxxen

    tigervixxxen Optimism=Delusional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    49,939
    Likes Received:
    894
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Location:
    Denver
    Liljegren, you mean the guy who has one more point and 3 fewer goals than Meloche in the AHL?

    But back to Cale, not being able to offer him that NHL time wouldn't be very enticing. Avs never ever burn ELC years. Can't remember the last time they did it. I don't think they'd even want to do it next year if they could help it. Even if a dozen AHL games would actually help Makar.

    I also still don't get this one must dominate in order to play pro hockey line of thinking. Guys like Boikov and Geertsen played pro hockey at 20 years of age. It Makar isn't ready for the NHL that's what the AHL is for, he's certainly capable of playing at that level.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    cgf likes this.
  19. Ararana

    Ararana Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,932
    Likes Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Two Rivers
    I think this is going to be the sticking point unfortunately, they can't Jost him without screwing themselves in the expansion. If he stays I'm not happy his season is pretty much over in early March. Makar needs as many games and meaningful minutes as can be given to him right now.
     
  20. Walshy7

    Walshy7 Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2016
    Messages:
    16,135
    Likes Received:
    2,192
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Location:
    Toronto
    Makar you mean the guy who has 4 less points and one more goal than Jacob Bryson?

    pretty easy game to play that one
     
  21. Colin Hui

    Colin Hui Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Isn't the expansion draft likely in 2020? So if your reasoning is correct the Avs should not sign his ELC until 2019 in order to avoid him being eligible for the expansion draft. I believe it is if a player plays 2 years then he will be eligible. So if they sign him in 2018, he will still be eligible for the expansion and will need to be protected. There is no way they should hold him back for an extra year for the sole purpose of not having to put him on their protected list. That is a great problem for a team to have that they can worry about later.

    If this is the case then this should not be a deterrent in signing him now. To me this is ridiculous anyway. If it benefits the team and players development then I would sign him right now. Who cares if it burns a year off his ELC? This should only be a consideration if a team is trying to tank. If you believe the player is going to be a valuable member of your team then pay him what he is worth. I am very confident that Makar will be a cornerstone player in the NHL for 15 plus years so what is the difference of paying him 1 more year at fair market rate? Some even believe that if you sign someone sooner and they are in fact not that ready and take longer to develop then you will end up paying the player less in the first few years of their professional contract.

    If I was the Avalanche and IF I felt Makar could help the team right now I would try and sign him and bring him in to the NHL right now. There are still 14 games left in the regular season plus possibly playoffs. If he can contribute and help get the Avalanche into the playoffs think how amazing that would be for his development as a player. It would also be exciting for the fan base. To me there is no real downside.

    To me the only question is IF he is ready to help now.
     
  22. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    38,800
    Likes Received:
    4,865
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Occupation:
    Browbeaten Bookkeeper
    Location:
    w/ Renley's Peach
    tbf if Meloche was a Leafs prospect, we'd be hearing about how he's going to be a perfect partner for Rielly on the top pairing because he's a rich man's Josh Manson.

    Makar is a different talent than Boikov & Geertsen. Those guys are always going to be bottom of the lineup depth guys as pros, Makar is supposed to become a dominant figure for us some day. So who cares if some other players turn pro at the start of their draft + 2 year instead of the end? Makar is his own player and has his own development track.
    Fair enough, though Bryson is a sophomore while Makar is just a freshmen. Lilj & 'loche are both first year AHLers...and big nic was screwed out of PT by the team-sharing-agreement with STL, so he has done all his damage over the past ~2 months
    If Makar signs his ELC for next season he'll only have two years at the pro level by the time of the expansion draft and so not need to be protected; as 1st & 2nd year pros are exempt. So it's just the rest of this season that they need to "hold him back"
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    avsfan09 likes this.
  23. Colin Hui

    Colin Hui Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    So they could give him the 9 games this year 'tryout' in the NHL and see how he does and sign him to his ELC for the beginning of next year?

    If he did incredible they could still sign him and have to protect him in the expansion. I guess the expansion draft needs to be considered, but should not be the be all and end all of any decision. I guess they already have 8 solid players to protect for now in guessing Mackinnon, Rantanan, Jost, Landeskog, Kerfoot, Girard, Barrie and Johnson? Can only protect 3 defenceman.
     
  24. cgf

    cgf FireBednarsSuccessor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    38,800
    Likes Received:
    4,865
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Occupation:
    Browbeaten Bookkeeper
    Location:
    w/ Renley's Peach
    No, to keep him ED-exempt he'd have to sign an ATO for the rest of this season, which would only let him play in the AHL.

    As for your list, you're forgetting Zadorov, so Colorado already has 4 NHL blueliners to protect. Plus there's also Meloche, who's playing his first pro season this year and could easily already be a high-quality top 4 guy by the time of the ED. At the moment it looks like we should go 4 + 4 with MacK / Mikko / Landy / Jost + EJ / Zadorov / Girard / Barrie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  25. Colin Hui

    Colin Hui Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Just saw protected list rules as per below. If they protect 4 d then they only protect 8 and a goalie (9 total). If they protect 3 d then they get another 2 players they can protect (11 total). So unless a team really loves their defence over their forwards it is not a good idea to protect more than 3 d. A lot can change over a couple years so tough to say, but no brainer to protect 11 instead of 9 unless have 4 really strong d.

    Protected Lists

    * Clubs will have two options for players they wish to protect in the Expansion Draft:
    a) Seven forwards, three defensemen and one goaltender
    b) Eight skaters (forwards/defensemen) and one goaltender
    * All players who have currently effective and continuing "No Movement" clauses at the time of the Expansion Draft (and who to decline to waive such clauses) must be protected (and will be counted toward their club's applicable protection limits).
    * All first- and second-year professionals, as well as all unsigned draft choices, will be exempt from selection (and will not be counted toward their club's applicable protection limits).
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"