CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

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KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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As I've said before, the Coyotes need a full on entertainment district with Condos, apartments, commercial real estate and the rent etc from all that to make the team profitable in the area.

That's non-sense. It's unrelated. Wanting an entertainment district around the arena to make more money just means businessmen like making money. It's an opportunity to be seized.

Cities want the entertainment district as part of "urban renewal," and building one into the arena deal ensures it happens instead of just hoping it happens organically.

And the team owners think that if it's gonna happen, why shouldn't THEY be the beneficiary.

Saying the team NEEDS it in order to be profitable is just projecting your opinions on the market/franchise because you CAN and it's impossible to prove/disprove.
 

Major4Boarding

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Jan 30, 2009
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Are there any good articles that summarize what happened with Glendale/Gila River Arena? I know that it was an unhappy marriage for a long time, but I just can't figure out how they ended up with a pro sports arena with no tenant and a pro sports team without a home. The Yotes didn't operate that arena, right? They were just tenants that paid for their 41 dates and that was it?


Or... MNNumbers' summary is pretty spot on too
 

Stumbledore

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Jan 1, 2018
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Why would politicians in Phoenix watch Canadian TV? If the your goal is talk to a very specific group of people, you don't need to worry about it reaching a wide audience.

To me, Bettman said what he said on TV because either the PA asked for it or an owner/groups of owners asked for it.
Notice anything rushing past over your head recently?
 

tucker3434

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That's non-sense. It's unrelated. Wanting an entertainment district around the arena to make more money just means businessmen like making money. It's an opportunity to be seized.

Cities want the entertainment district as part of "urban renewal," and building one into the arena deal ensures it happens instead of just hoping it happens organically.

And the team owners think that if it's gonna happen, why shouldn't THEY be the beneficiary.

Saying the team NEEDS it in order to be profitable is just projecting your opinions on the market/franchise because you CAN and it's impossible to prove/disprove.

I mean, they don’t NEED it, but it is a smarter way to package a sports franchise these days. And in the case of a non-traditional market like Arizona, it really could be the difference between endless relocation speculation, and a true permanent home.

Though when it comes time to sell, it could still run into some issues if it isn’t all packaged together in one deal.
 

TheLegend

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Can't say I've seen any other muncipialties in Arizona try to create a community facilities district expressly for a private property area. Could be wrong though.

For people in North Tempe who don't care about hockey it was easy to detect bullshit when the *other* $1.8B entertainment district that's being built 2 miles away only asked for the GPLET tax break of ~$25M, and even then people tried getting it on the ballot to vote it down.

It's still facing litigation isn't it?? Same group (Worker Power) who backed Tempe1st is also involved with this too.

 

Tawnos

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Sep 10, 2004
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Can't say I've seen any other muncipialties in Arizona try to create a community facilities district expressly for a private property area. Could be wrong though.

For people in North Tempe who don't care about hockey it was easy to detect bullshit when the *other* $1.8B entertainment district that's being built 2 miles away only asked for the GPLET tax break of ~$25M, and even then people tried getting it on the ballot to vote it down.

Entertainment districts aren’t the only types of development that get incentives.
 

MeHateHe

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Dec 24, 2006
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To summarize the first 148 threads.
Two weeks!
Quebec!
Hamilton!
Houston!
Portland!
Glendale Grr
Mullett Hahaha
Tempe Yay!
Merulo!
Tempe Uh oh...
Salt Lake City!
(Quebec! Pierre Karl Peladeau! Shh)
Atlanta, what?
 

Shwan

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Jan 30, 2019
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Entertainment districts aren’t the only types of development that get incentives.
Okay, so show how *any* other development in the state has anywhere close to what TED was going to get? You're the one who said "Nothing about TED was really out of the ordinary."
 
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Shwan

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It's still facing litigation isn't it?? Same group (Worker Power) who backed Tempe1st is also involved with this too.

CASE/Worker Power dropped the case in April.

 
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TheLegend

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KevFu

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I mean, they don’t NEED it, but it is a smarter way to package a sports franchise these days. And in the case of a non-traditional market like Arizona, it really could be the difference between endless relocation speculation, and a true permanent home.

Though when it comes time to sell, it could still run into some issues if it isn’t all packaged together in one deal.

You were so close. Just don't add more sentences to the first one. They don't NEED it, but it's the smarter way to package a stadium/arena deal, period. For everyone involved with any new stadium.

I get that it's easy to point at the Coyotes, the Islanders, the Oakland A's...

But don't forget the Detroit Red Wings/Pistons, Atlanta Braves and University of Tennessee. The Vols aren't going to relocate if they don't get their mixed-use entertainment district of bars and restaurants and team shops around their stadium.
 

Shwan

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Jan 30, 2019
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Marina Heights.


That's just a GPLET on steroids.

They pay nothing for the first eight years then pay ASU $4.8 million a year starting in year nine. They also must pay $400,000 to the city of Tempe every year – with $100,000 of that going to schools. JLBC estimates the city’s take jumps to $1.5 million in years 11 through 15 and after that, it’s unclear. They also must make payments to the Rio Salado Community Facilities District though it’s unclear how much those payments would be.

The Rio Salado Community Facilities District was created in 1998 when there was absolutely nothing but Cardinals tailgaters occupying that land. They didn't create one just for the site like they tried to do for TED, and they aren't trying to pawn it off on "surcharges" and tax diversion that would drive away business.

• Sources for repayment of the bonds: a portion of the sales and property tax revenues generated on-site as well as a surcharge implemented by the developer on all sales within the project.
 
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tucker3434

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You were so close. Just don't add more sentences to the first one. They don't NEED it, but it's the smarter way to package a stadium/arena deal, period. For everyone involved with any new stadium.

I get that it's easy to point at the Coyotes, the Islanders, the Oakland A's...

But don't forget the Detroit Red Wings/Pistons, Atlanta Braves and University of Tennessee. The Vols aren't going to relocate if they don't get their mixed-use entertainment district of bars and restaurants and team shops around their stadium.

There's no way for me to forget the Braves. My wife actually likes taking our kids to games now. That would've NEVER happened at Turner Field. It doesn't bother me a bit that they doubled their revenue since 2015. They've given us a more enjoyable product. Everyone benefits.
 

TheLegend

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That's just a GPLET on steroids.



The Rio Salado Community Facilities District was created in 1998 when there was absolutely nothing but Cardinals tailgaters occupying that land. They didn't create one just for the site like they tried to do for TED, and they aren't trying to pawn it off on "surcharges" and tax diversion that would drive away business.

A 99-year GPLET is definitely steroid induced.

Still, Meruelo (through TED) would have making contributions/payments to Tempe for various programs. South Pier also includes developer contributions to Tempe-related programs (but much shorter GPLET overall). So there are some similarities between them... and differences. Gets down to how it all adds up.

I will say the initial proposal for TED (as reported) at the time the RFP was issued was something I wasn't too crazy about. Tempe city staff did a hell of a job getting to where it was keeping the city well protected from financial liability, but the voters just didn't buy it.
 
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Tawnos

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Sep 10, 2004
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Okay, so show how *any* other development in the state has anywhere close to what TED was going to get? You're the one who said "Nothing about TED was really out of the ordinary."

The scope of it isn't really the point I was making. The point I was making is that developments get public incentives all the time.


"In May 2020, TSMC announced plans to build a $12 billion factory in Phoenix. Later that year, the city provided TSMC with $200 million in infrastructure incentives, including water lines, sewage and roads. One traffic light would cost the city $500,000."

"Intel soon announced a $20 billion expansion in Chandler, with two additional factories that would bring 3,000 new jobs to the state. Chandler also approved $30 million in water and road improvements for the new plants."

Now, you're going to say that is different than what we were seeing with TED, but to me public incentives are public incentives regardless of the form they take.

Also, you want to talk about the GPLETs as if they're something different, but a GPLET is still a tax incentive. The structure might be something different, but the fundamental idea behind them isn't.

The whole point of TED for the city of Tempe was to attract the Arizona Coyotes/Alex Meruelo to their city, the same way that Phoenix wanted to attract TSMC and Chandler wanted to attract Intel. It's a different kind of business and the complexity of the development made the proposal complex as well, but it's still a city using incentives to lure a business.
 
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LPHabsFan

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Jul 14, 2003
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That's non-sense. It's unrelated. Wanting an entertainment district around the arena to make more money just means businessmen like making money. It's an opportunity to be seized.

Cities want the entertainment district as part of "urban renewal," and building one into the arena deal ensures it happens instead of just hoping it happens organically.

And the team owners think that if it's gonna happen, why shouldn't THEY be the beneficiary.

Saying the team NEEDS it in order to be profitable is just projecting your opinions on the market/franchise because you CAN and it's impossible to prove/disprove.
Actually no, it's not projecting. I think the general consensus, which was also echoed by people here on the "vote yes" side was that the only way this whole project made any financial sense was the inclusion of the real estate development.

Also, the only reason it's impossible to prove or disprove is because we the public have too many questions and not enough answers about the finances of the team. Having said that, what little we do know, is enough to direct us towards a logical conclusion that the team and arena will not being able to be profitable enough for a very long time. That's why we can even make that statement regarding the need for the ED to begin with.
 

MNNumbers

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Comparing to GRA....
Team losing conservatively 10M/yr
Arena also in the red.

Even with a new arena, it's hard to imagine 12-15M/yr better performance, just based on location. And, that's just to break even, not to pay the financing.
 

Llama19

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Jan 19, 2013
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Arizona Coyotes to Salt Lake City? Relocation speculation swirls around NHL team in Utah

To quote:

"NHL commissioner Gary Bettman recently addressed the state of the Arizona Coyotes saying that "the Coyotes are exploring their options in the greater Phoenix area, and our hope is that one of those options being explored will come to fruition."

But some comments from NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly set off another round of relocation speculation for the NHL team in Arizona, a team that recently had a new arena plan rejected by Tempe voters, prompting renewed questions about the future of the franchise in the state.

Daly, in the same new conference as Bettman, said that "we have certainly talked to Ryan Smith (owner of the Utah Jazz) and he has indicated he has an interest in bringing the NHL to Salt Lake City."

He added: “I think, obviously, what happened in Arizona created this talk of (the) potential need for relocation, and I suppose on some level that’s accurate. But I don’t think it changed what Ryan Smith had expressed to us, which is an interest in bringing the NHL to Salt Lake.”"

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2023/06/06/arizona-coyotes-nhl-relocation-speculation-salt-lake-city-utah/70295512007/
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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To summarize the first 148 threads.
Two weeks!
Quebec!
Hamilton!
Houston!
Portland!
Glendale Grr
Mullett Hahaha
Tempe Yay!
Merulo!
Tempe Uh oh...
Salt Lake City!
(Quebec! Pierre Karl Peladeau! Shh)
Atlanta, what?
If I recall it was:
Hamilton!
A little Saskatooon!
Hamilton!
Winnipeg!
Cupcakes!
Quebec!
Seattle!
Full on haboob!
Tempe - joint with ASU!
Two weeks!
Houston!
Somewhere in the Valley!
Tempe again! But maybe Salt Lake City if it doesn't work
It didn't work :(
Houston? Salt Lake City?
Yeah we don't know...
 
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patnyrnyg

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Sep 16, 2004
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Wont believe its the final countdown until Gary retires
Will never happen. One day when Gary is about 135-136 years old, a custodian or security guard will be making his rounds in the NHL offices and find Gary dead at his desk.
 
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