CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[Fenway]

continued from CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations​

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[oldunclehue]

continued from CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations​

Is it a bad sign if on opening night of a brand new arena the university can't even come close to a sell out?

 

[Fenway]

Is it a bad sign if on opening night of a brand new arena the university can't even come close to a sell out?

 

[TheLegend]

@Stumbledore

You may not need a hearing check, but perhaps something related to reading comprehension?

My post makes no reference to the Coyotoes. My post makes no reference to Balsillie. So why do you? My post challenges the claim that someone has heard "for 20+ years" that Canadian NHL teams always sell out. What does that have to do with your reading things about the Coyotes or Balsillie's misguided campaign?

Obviously, if there was a reliable source to the absurd claim that NHL hockey always sells out in Canada, you would have cited it. Instead, you make a laughable reference to social media.

I've come to expect better from The Legend.

The person you responded to referred to "Canadians" boasting their arenas were all sold out

You stated that wasn't true and I stated it was. And it continues to a small degree even today. Just not here.

I never mentioned Balsillie. MakeItSeven was Basillie's creation but it was maintained by someone else and had it's own forum where hundreds of Canadians registered and posted a lot of what we're talking about. A group of them subsequently decided to invade the Arizona Republic's own comment pages to Coyotes articles and continue with the same rhetoric you claim never happened.

MakeItEightEh was the creation Craig Ferguson who carried on the same rhetoric.

Those were just a couple of examples. I have more.

All I'm doing here is supporting the fact that there ARE a number of people who ran on the narrative that Canada teams always sell out while bottom end franchises (like the Coyotes) aren't worthy.

Do I care about all that rhetoric?? Not since about 2010. But I know of a lot of Coyotes fans who haven't gotten over it and if Meruelo gets his project rolling their gloves are going to come off.

 

[Stumbledore]

@Stumbledore


The person you responded to referred to "Canadians" boasting their arenas were all sold out

NO. Go back and look and you will NOT find the word Canadians anywhere in his posting. What is it about Americans these days and their propensity for lying?

I never mentioned Balsillie. MakeItSeven was Basillie's creation

but it was maintained by someone else and had it's own forum where hundreds of Canadians registered and posted a lot of what we're talking about. A group of them subsequently decided to invade the Arizona Republic's own comment pages to Coyotes articles and continue with the same rhetoric you claim never happened.

MakeItEightEh was the creation Craig Ferguson who carried on the same rhetoric.

Those were just a couple of examples. I have more.

All I'm doing here is supporting the fact that there ARE a number of people who ran on the narrative that Canada teams always sell out while bottom end franchises (like the Coyotes) aren't worthy.

Do I care about all that rhetoric?? Not since about 2010. But I know of a lot of Coyotes fans who haven't gotten over it and if Meruelo gets his project rolling their gloves are going to come off.

@Stumbledore


The person you responded to referred to "Canadians" boasting their arenas were all sold out

Wrong! Go back and look at the posting. He did NOT refer to Canadians. What is it about Americans these days and their propensity for lying?

I never mentioned Balsillie. MakeItSeven was Basillie's creation

Say what? You cheapen your reputation with this sort of logic.

Do I care about all that rhetoric?? Not since about 2010.

Your postings indicate otherwise.

I've followed The Legend for accurate information in the past. You can do much better than this.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

With regards to the last thread, I don't agree with some of the comments regarding the amount of disposable income Americans have available. While some things are cheaper, things like housing are not necessarily so. Some things, like health care premiums can be quite a bit more expensive in the US than in Canada. As for states with lower or no income taxes...well, some of these places can compensate for that with other taxes and user fees on various items/services.

 

[mouser]

Mod: This is a brand new BoH thread. I’d like to suggest more discussion focused on the Arizona Coyotes and less on USA vs Canada or US vs Canadian teams.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

What is it about Americans these days and their propensity for lying?

Was this really necessary for you to make a point? Really only strengthens my argument how toxic nationalism is.

 

[Stumbledore]

Was this really necessary for you to make a point? Really only strengthens my argument how toxic nationalism is.

Necessary? Probably not. And while I agree with you that nationalism has become toxic, I'm much more concerned about the tendency for people to outright lie and ignore the factual record. Even an hour on Fox News will prove my point.

 

[TheLegend]

It's easy to say "it's a lie" when you've never experienced something first hand.

And I don't make up things.

If I interpret something wrong.... then I'll admit it and I have done so in the past.

 

[aqib]

So question for the people who live in AZ, what makes the Tempe site so much better than the rumored backup plans that its worth going through all the hassle of dealing with airport's shenanigans? Why not just go the path of least resistance?

 

[sh724]

So question for the people who live in AZ, what makes the Tempe site so much better than the rumored backup plans that its worth going through all the hassle of dealing with airport's shenanigans? Why not just go the path of least resistance?

At this point the back up site is just a rumor with no concrete evidence of it actually existing.

The potential fight with the airport is Tempe's problem not the Yotes problem. If Tempe is moving forward with things it would indicate that Tempe is not concerned with the airport taking issue with TED

 

[TheLegend]

So question for the people who live in AZ, what makes the Tempe site so much better than the rumored backup plans that its worth going through all the hassle of dealing with airport's shenanigans? Why not just go the path of least resistance?

The proximity to Sky Harbor has distinct advantages in spite of their objections.

ASU’s NOVUS project is also up for final approval with the city council this month. Plans include no less than eight major hotels to be built within walking distance of Mullett Arena and that would put them within 1 1/2 miles of TED. Tempe (along with ASU) over the last decade has been cultivating their portion of the Rio Salado Project. Which was a concept that came from the late Senator John McCain many years ago. He envisioned a grand re-development of the Salt River across multiple cities. Tempe is the only city though who’s took that’s concept to heart so far.

I would imagine Meruelo sees TED as a capstone for that concept. TED could become a huge draw for conventions, other major sporting events other than hockey. There’s already been talk of ASU men’s basketball utilizing the arena.

The potential is just too massive for them to walk away from.

Plus… the land they’re looking to develop is probably the most economical location they could find. Even after spending $70 million to reclaim it.

For the Coyotes themselves either site would be satisfactory from an accessibility POV. But this is more than just having an arena to play in.

Case in point…. The first Super Bowl ever played in Glendale had all of it’s side attractions and parties located around Westgate. But Westgate was so late in getting enough hotel and convention space in place for that game every subsequent game has resulted in those events being moved everywhere else. And Glendale didn’t help themselves much either by openly complaining about it all.

There’s a massive resort and amusement part currently under construction next to the stadium that was supposed to be open for the upcoming 2023 Super Bowl, but it has since been sold to a different developer and the number of rooms has doubled. It won’t be ready now until Fall 2023 (and I’m doubtful they make that given I drive by it regularly)

 

[Knights2017]

The proximity to Sky Harbor has distinct advantages in spite of their objections.

ASU’s NOVUS project is also up for final approval with the city council this month. Plans include no less than eight major hotels to be built within walking distance of Mullett Arena and that would put them within 1 1/2 miles of TED. Tempe (along with ASU) over the last decade has been cultivating their portion of the Rio Salado Project. Which was a concept that came from the late Senator John McCain many years ago. He envisioned a grand re-development of the Salt River across multiple cities. Tempe is the only city though who’s took that’s concept to heart so far.

I would imagine Meruelo sees TED as a capstone for that concept. TED could become a huge draw for conventions, other major sporting events other than hockey. There’s already been talk of ASU men’s basketball utilizing the arena.

The potential is just too massive for them to walk away from.

Plus… the land they’re looking to develop is probably the most economical location they could find. Even after spending $70 million to reclaim it.

For the Coyotes themselves either site would be satisfactory from an accessibility POV. But this is more than just having an arena to play in.

Case in point…. The first Super Bowl ever played in Glendale had all of it’s side attractions and parties located around Westgate. But Westgate was so late in getting enough hotel and convention space in place for that game every subsequent game has resulted in those events being moved everywhere else. And Glendale didn’t help themselves much either by openly complaining about it all.

There’s a massive resort and amusement part currently under construction next to the stadium that was supposed to be open for the upcoming 2023 Super Bowl, but it has since been sold to a different developer and the number of rooms has doubled. It won’t be ready now until Fall 2023 (and I’m doubtful they make that given I drive by it regularly)

It's only a matter of time until that resort ends up in BK Court.. imo. Changing hands in developers, grandiose plans, in Glendale...etc. Doesn't matter how nice the place is who's going to go there? Also, it's still cold to use a pool from about Late Oct-April

 

[Colezuki]

Did they ever sort out the arena deal? Haven't heard anything in a while

 

[TheLegend]

Did they ever sort out the arena deal? Haven't heard anything in a while

Expected to come to the council November 22nd. That’s when they are to discuss a required zoning change.

 

[Llama19]

I'll just leave this here...

As Arizona Coyotes begin Tempe era, where things stand with their proposed new arena

www.azcentral.com/story/sports/2022/10/24/coyotes-prepare-tempe-debut-what-know-new-arena-plans/10536129002/

 

[Stumbledore]

I'll just leave this here...

As Arizona Coyotes begin Tempe era, where things stand with their proposed new arena

www.azcentral.com/story/sports/2022/10/24/coyotes-prepare-tempe-debut-what-know-new-arena-plans/10536129002/

"these requests amount to $649 million in tax abatements."

Wow!

Subsidized by the public purse to the tune of $650 million. Now cue all the "what about other areans" and the willfully blind who will insist the new arena is privately funded and AM won't rip off the taxpayers.

Six hundred and fifty million. Hear that Calgary?

 

[awfulwaffle]

I'll just leave this here...

As Arizona Coyotes begin Tempe era, where things stand with their proposed new arena

www.azcentral.com/story/sports/2022/10/24/coyotes-prepare-tempe-debut-what-know-new-arena-plans/10536129002/

You could have quoted the section that is relevant to what you are complaining about.

The Coyotes are asking Tempe for a 30-year property tax exemption on the arena, practice facility and theater, comparing them to other regional professional athletic venues like State Farm Stadium, Footprint Center and Chase Field, which are permanently tax exempt because they’re owned by government entities.

The Coyotes also seek an eight-year property tax exemption on the hotels, retail, office and residential space, which is in line with exemptions Tempe has granted for other projects.

Seems like their requests are in line with other companies/projects that have also received tax breaks. Keep in mind that the amount reference is an estimate, and there is no clear cut number to what the tax breaks would amount to.

 

[mouser]

"these requests amount to $649 million in tax abatements."

Wow!

Subsidized by the public purse to the tune of $650 million. Now cue all the "what about other areans" and the willfully blind who will insist the new arena is privately funded and AM won't rip off the taxpayers.

Six hundred and fifty million. Hear that Calgary?

For context, these are property tax abatements being requested, not direct funding such as bonds.
- 30 year property tax exemption on the arena, practice facility and theater.
- 8 year property tax exemption on the hotels, retail, office and residential space.

Per the article: all the other major professional sports arenas in Arizona are tax exempt, including the Footprint Center (NBA arena) in Phoenix as it is owned by a government entity. Also per the article Tempe has been granting 8 year property tax exemptions to other development projects, though no details of how much and how frequently Tempe has been doing so.

 

[Stumbledore]

Seems like their requests are in line with other companies/projects that have also received tax breaks.

I'm always bemused by this kind of logic. "Sure, I had $100 stolen out of my wallet but other people got robbed too and some lost more money." And that makes it okay, how?

For context, these are property tax abatements being requested, not direct funding
Per the article: all the other major professional sports arenas in Arizona are tax exempt ... Also per the article Tempe has been granting 8 year property tax exemptions to other development projects...

Again. "Sure, I had $100 stolen out of my wallet but other people got robbed too and some lost more money." And that makes it okay, how?

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that AM is any bigger thief of the public purse than other developers. And I'm not really opposed to it, I suppose. I'm just amazed that in America -- where socialism is a dirty word -- so much of 'private' enterprise is funded by the oblivious taxpayer.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I'm always bemused by this kind of logic. "Sure, I had $100 stolen out of my wallet but other people got robbed too and some lost more money." And that makes it okay, how?


Again. "Sure, I had $100 stolen out of my wallet but other people got robbed too and some lost more money." And that makes it okay, how?

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that AM is any bigger thief of the public purse than other developers. And I'm not really opposed to it, I suppose. I'm just amazed that in America -- where socialism is a dirty word -- so much of 'private' enterprise is funded by the oblivious taxpayer.

EVERY municipality does this. The City of Dallas just recently paid, I believe it was Bank of America, a large sum of money for them to keep their offices in Dallas instead of moving them out to one of the suburbs. You can bemoan a specific municipality all you want, but it's just the way the world works. Don't like it, go to a city council meeting of your local leaders and complain to them.

Not to mention, the people that come to see hockey games, aren't necessarily going to be spending money just at TED, they will venture out and spend money elsewhere as well.

 

[Mike Jones]

Six hundred and fifty million. Hear that Calgary?

Sounds like an easy no for Tempe residents.

Cities across North America have to put a stop to these nutty deals with sports organizations demanding tax money to help pay for their pet projects.

Here in Calgary we have a failing council on the verge of throwing hundreds of millions of dollars into the pockets of team owners who can easily pay for the arena project themselves and pay piles of property taxes when that arena opens.

An easy no for Calgary taxpayers.

 

[TheLegend]

"these requests amount to $649 million in tax abatements."

Wow!

Subsidized by the public purse to the tune of $650 million. Now cue all the "what about other areans" and the willfully blind who will insist the new arena is privately funded and AM won't rip off the taxpayers.

Six hundred and fifty million. Hear that Calgary?

She’s using outdated material. She’s also guesstimating based on the original proposal. That had changed quite substantially since the June 6th city council meeting.

What she’s NOT telling you is

- The land currently yields zero in taxes.
- The land requires a minimum of $70 million in investment BEFORE it can even be suitable to develop on.
- Meruelo has pledged $40 million of it up front before a shovel hits. The remainder is yet to be determined but originally it was all to be covered as part of the $200 million in bonds.

There are tax abatements as part of the proposal. But those initial numbers have also changed and nobody knows what they entail yet.

The question Ms. Salmon is conveniently ignoring is…. what is the long term net gain/loss for Tempe?

Now Ms. Salmon is a big proponent of low cost housing. Those who watched the June council meeting would have seen a number of public “speakers” were bringing that subject up.

But who is going to drop $70 million on top of all the construction costs to build that kind of project? Under a major airport flight path…. where noise abatement will add on a huge portion of the cost?

 

[TheLegend]

Sounds like an easy no for Tempe residents.

Cities across North America have to put a stop to these nutty deals with sports organizations demanding tax money to help pay for their pet projects.

Here in Calgary we have a failing council on the verge of throwing hundreds of millions of dollars into the pockets of team owners who can easily pay for the arena project themselves and pay piles of property taxes when that arena opens.

An easy no for Calgary taxpayers.

Mike… with all due respect… Arizona uses this system all over the state and for more than just sports teams. Without it there would be no growth at all. Phoenix would not be the sixth largest metropolitan center in the US today without it.

What we have to be diligent about is making sure these types of transactions don’t get abused.