Crosby current all time center ranking?

[MXD]

Sorry, but the notion Crosby was strong when the Pens were ousted in 2010 playoffs is absoutely not grounded in reality...

 

[daver]

.Crosby 2013-14 Art Ross far from impressive. Beat Getzlaf by 17 points yet he played 80 games and 1758 minutes compared to Getzlaf, the runner-up playing 77 games and 1639 minutes. Big difference in ice time is telling.

How does one get to this "fantasy land" where Getzlaf plays 80 games and more minutes per game. I am interested to see how Crosby's partial seasons played out.

 

[daver]

Sorry, but the notion Crosby was strong when the Pens were ousted in 2010 playoffs is absoutely not grounded in reality...

Yeah, in retrospect he really should not have singlehandedly gotten his team into the second round that year knowing how much his legacy would be tarnished by his series against the Habs.

 

[MXD]

C'mon C...
Getzlaf played about 20 seconds less per game, and wouldn't have made up a 17 points gap by playing 3 further games.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Especially when we consider that Crosby plays 20:26 minutes per game while Thornton plays 18:24 minutes a game.

Not to mention that Hornquvist is obviously a superior goal scorer to Pavelski...wait that doesn't fit the narrative doe it?

Thorton is an under rated guy around these parts at times and yes he is keeping pace with Crosby in the last 48 games.

The last 3 seasons not so much though but hey why look at the bigger sample when cherry picking?

Hey I'm glad that Thornton is having this great season as I have both him and Pavelski in my keeper fantasy pool but no one is expecting his pace to keep up next year to Crosby again.

 

[The Panther]

Either way you slice it Crosby has had 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs.

Dude.

Crosby was great in the '08 playoffs, but just pretty good in the Finals, which his team lost. In NHL history, almost nobody wins a Conn Smythe when his team loses. And nobody ever wins a Conn Smythe for being pretty good in the Finals and losing.

Crosby was quite good in the '09 playoffs, but mediocre to poor in the Finals. Nobody ever wins the Conn Smythe for being mediocre to poor in the Finals. I mean, he was outscored 2-1 by Max Talbot.

So, no, Crosby does not have 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs. Gretzky did not win a Conn Smythe in '85 and '88 because he was outscored 2-1 by Craig MacTavish.

 

[MXD]

Yeah, in retrospect he really should not have singlehandedly gotten his team into the second round that year knowing how much his legacy would be tarnished by his series against the Habs.

I was answering to this :

If you think Sid was the reason the Pens got bounced you didn't watch the playoffs that year or are just grasping at straws. He was strong in both series.

Saying Crosby was strong in the 2nd round is absolutely false, no room for discussion on this. Okay would've been appropriate.
But hey, my post wasn't pro-Crosby, so it was necessarily misleading, right?

 

[MXD]

Dude.

Crosby was great in the '08 playoffs, but just pretty good in the Finals, which his team lost. In NHL history, almost nobody wins a Conn Smythe when his team loses. And nobody ever wins a Conn Smythe for being pretty good in the Finals and losing.

Crosby was quite good in the '09 playoffs, but mediocre to poor in the Finals. Nobody ever wins the Conn Smythe for being mediocre to poor in the Finals. I mean, he was outscored 2-1 by Max Talbot.

So, no, Crosby does not have 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs. Gretzky did not win a Conn Smythe in '85 and '88 because he was outscored 2-1 by Craig MacTavish.

Again, if I'd have to name a player with two straight legit Connie Smythe runs, but who ended up with no Connie Smythe, I'd probably start by Doug Gilmour and Rick MacLeish.

 

[daver]

Dude.

Crosby was great in the '08 playoffs, but just pretty good in the Finals, which his team lost. In NHL history, almost nobody wins a Conn Smythe when his team loses. And nobody ever wins a Conn Smythe for being pretty good in the Finals and losing.

Crosby was quite good in the '09 playoffs, but mediocre to poor in the Finals. Nobody ever wins the Conn Smythe for being mediocre to poor in the Finals. I mean, he was outscored 2-1 by Max Talbot.

So, no, Crosby does not have 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs. Gretzky did not win a Conn Smythe in '85 and '88 because he was outscored 2-1 by Craig MacTavish.

Except Toews the next year.

And do we really have to walk through the CS winners since '05 and compare them with Crosby's two runs?

However you want to define his playoff runs, his two best are better than anyone's elses two best since '05.

And considerably better than Jagr's two best, who I highly doubt gets rated any lower than his offensive resume would dictate.

 

[daver]

I think a poll would be a good idea at this point if it allowed on HOH. Perhaps after the season has ended.

Crosby would have completed 3 seasons since being ranked 22nd so I am curious as to how many places the majority thinks he has jumped up. Is he in the 15-20 range, 10-15 or Top 10?

My guess most would put him in the 10-15 range.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Again, fantasy type position that rewards a player with positive attributes while injured. Give the other players the same injury consideration bonuses that you are giving Crosby and the optic changes greatly.

Crosby is soon to be a top 3 scorer 7 times.

How many players in history have done that? Not many

Is being top 3 in scoring 7 times in his first 7 seasons fantasy?

In the other 4 seasons he scored a 152-79-152-231 line.

No need to expand that "pace" to a full 4 seasons.

Crosby's resume as an elite scorer stands above the 4 guys you listed and only Mikita even comes close.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Your claims are not supported by data and facts.

31G and 45 A = 76 points would be considered elite in today's NHL. Player would be tied for 5th in NHL scoring with Joe Thornton.

But this is the aggregate total of AHL, waiver wire pick-up, projects and call-ups on the Montreal Canadiens this season. Some of the contribution is from players who were second and third liners on a non-playoff AHL team. So non-playoff AHL talent somehow becomes NHL level talent by changing the jersey. Furthermore your view is that these non-playoff level minor leaguers would have made the O6 NHL Canadiens. Only if they bought tickets to the games would they have seen the inside of an NHL arena in the O6 era.

Collectively these players are very weak defensively plus they have played most of their NHL career in front of an AHL quality goalie.

Yet very few teams are able to explode offensively against the ragtag assortment that the Canadiens ice. Presently the defensive system used by the Canadiens is haphazard. So what happened to the elite offensive talent levels that you claim exists?

WTF?

Now you are going to criticize Crosby because he can't outscore an aggregate of what 10 other players and double triple or quadruple the plating time?

Just a really questionable moving of the goalposts.



Sorry but if add up the aggregate totals of 10 other Oilers or Kings they will outscore Wayne.

Even more so with Mario.

Aand yes NHL rosters see more turnover in 2016 than 1983 or 1992 because of injuries, it's part of the ever changing NHL landscape.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Reading

How does one get to this "fantasy land" where Getzlaf plays 80 games and more minutes per game. I am interested to see how Crosby's partial seasons played out.

Read the quote again.Please read correctly. It was clearly stated that Crosby was the one who played more games 80 vs 77 for Getzlaf and that Crosby played 1758 minutes to Getzlaf's 1639.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Sorry, but the notion Crosby was strong when the Pens were ousted in 2010 playoffs is absoutely not grounded in reality...

Sorry but a 13-6-13-19 plus 6 playoff line in 2010 NHL is simply elite

7-1-4-5 minus 1 losing in 7 to Montreal in 7 isn't elite to be sure but man so much cherry picking for a modern guy and then fr older guys lots of excuses like "well they didn't score much back then" or other like minded arguments that only seem to be good for one era but not another.

This last comment is in general and keeps popping up not directed towards this post.

 

[daver]

Read the quote again.Please read correctly. It was clearly stated that Crosby was the one who played more games 80 vs 77 for Getzlaf and that Crosby played 1758 minutes to Getzlaf's 1639.

I am reading it correctly. You want to diminish Crosby's 17 point win by giving Getzlaf credit for points he never earned by assuming he would get more points if he played more games and more minutes.

So how is that any different from considering Crosby as a Top 3 offensive player in the seasons he did not finish in the Top 3.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Details

C'mon C...
Getzlaf played about 20 seconds less per game, and wouldn't have made up a 17 points gap by playing 3 further games.

Actually Getzlaf played 41 seconds less a game or the equivalent of one shift.Three more games. Combined the difference would have been closer.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Read the quote again.Please read correctly. It was clearly stated that Crosby was the one who played more games 80 vs 77 for Getzlaf and that Crosby played 1758 minutes to Getzlaf's 1639.

You are still opening up Pandora's box for other seasons, specifically 09, 13,15 and 16 (this current season).

"on Pace" is one metric that Crosby is simply going to blow away his peers and he has done so in his time in the league plain and simple.

Even in 14 Getzlaf would lessen the gap by how much exactly?

And even you would agree that Corey Perry is a superior line mate than Kunitz right?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Last bold part is, as I've pointed out complete and utter *********.

2011-12 = 8 points in 6 games. Marc Andre Fleury's consistent meltdowns began here. MAF/defense surrendered 4.63 GAA and Fleury had a .834 Sv%. I don't know if I've seen a goalie play as horrendously as he did in that series. Crosby wasn't great but he still produced points for his team and again, was nowhere near the top of the list for reasons Pittsburgh fell apart.

2012-13 = 15 points in 14 games. He was great in the first two series vs NY and Ottawa. Then Boston completely shut him and the Pens down in the conference finals. Overall, not strong, nor weak, unless you want to simply focus on one series, which is what a biased person would do. And if you think that no other all time great players have ever been shut down, you need to learn some history and research Rocket Richard not scoring a single point in the 54 Cup finals vs Detroit. Plenty of other names can be brought up, but even the best get shut down/out in tough series from time to time.

2013-14 = 9 points in 13 games. Easily Crosby's worst playoff performance. Dubinksy and Columbus continually trolled and roughed him up and for the most part held him in check. Taking advantage of refs putting whistles in their pockets and the Pens not standing up for their stars, made for a great strategy. Just kept pounding him within and sometimes beyond the rules. Pens advanced but MAF was more of a reason then anything. This is where Fleury started to rebound from his prior meltdowns. The Rangers just took what the Jackets did and took it a step further. Marc Stall in particular. Crosby didn't do much of anything. Not a good showing.

2014-15 = 4 points in 5 games. The Pens sucked before this series even started. Bylsma was looooong overdue to be fired for his failures behind the bench and the team stopped responding to him well before the playoffs even started. Crosby was pulling players like Bobby Farnham and Jayson Megna up and down the ice at ES due to injuries and inept coaching. I'm surprised Crosby scored any points and the Pens even managed to win a game or keep a few others close. Completely outclassed at every level. So, yeah chalk up another dud.

Either way you slice it Crosby has had 2 legit Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs. He's 7th all time in scoring per game in playoff history with 100 games to his name, so it's not like we're talking a small sample size.

He had one series in 2013 where he was held in check by Boston and then had his worst playoffs in 2014 over 2 series. 2015 was more or less meaningless given the Pens went in as an 8th seed with massive injuries to their entire roster. And Dan Bylsma had lost the team long before the end of that year.

What part of his bolded was "complete and utter such and such"?

As you demonstrate yourself, Crosby has put up good point totals against tomato cans, and was held in check by good defensive teams. Which is exactly what myself and CYM have pointed out. He has done nothing to further his playoff legacy since 2009. What is controversial about this?

 

[Hardyvan123]

I am reading it correctly. You want to diminish Crosby's 17 point win by giving Getzlaf credit for points he never earned by assuming he would get more points if he played more games and more minutes.

So how is that any different from considering Crosby as a Top 3 offensive player in the seasons he did not finish in the Top 3.

It isn't really any different but no doubt we will see an official moving of the goal posts here now.

 

[MXD]

Actually Getzlaf played 41 seconds less a game or the equivalent of one shift.Three more games. Combined the difference would have been closer.

We're still talking about, at the least, a 10% difference.

 

[daver]

What part of his bolded was "complete and utter such and such"?

As you demonstrate yourself, Crosby has put up good point totals against tomato cans, and was held in check by good defensive teams. Which is exactly what myself and CYM have pointed out. He has done nothing to further his playoff legacy since 2009. What is controversial about this?

So how would you rate his legacy thru 2009? Do you think there are many players in NHL history with a better one thru age 21?

Can't always focus on the negative can we?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Last Sentence

I am reading it correctly. You want to diminish Crosby's 17 point win by giving Getzlaf credit for points he never earned by assuming he would get more points if he played more games and more minutes.

So how is that any different from considering Crosby as a Top 3 offensive player in the seasons he did not finish in the Top 3.

Just explaining such instances.Refer to the last sentence in the same post where the point is made that such Art Ross winning margins happen when the winner enjoys a TOI advantage.

 

[daver]

As you demonstrate yourself, Crosby has put up good point totals against tomato cans, and was held in check by good defensive teams.

Perhaps some actual numbers might help you make your case. It appears that only Crosby can beat up these tomato cans as his leading PPG appears to indicate. Maybe it is not as easy as you make it sound. He has about a PPG vs. teams with a Top Ten GAA. How do his peers in the league compare?

 

[edinson]

Perhaps some actual numbers might help you make your case. It appears that only Crosby can beat up these tomato cans as his leading PPG appears to indicate. Maybe it is not as easy as you make it sound. He has about a PPG vs. teams with a Top Ten GAA. How do his peers in the league compare?

It's his playoff resume post-2009 that's being discussed. Crosby is not the PPG leader during this period.

Also, against top ten GAA teams:
21 7 6 13

Against other teams:
30 12 30 42

All post-2009. I hope I got the numbers right. As you point out, it's hard to know what to make of the numbers without comparing it to other players'.

 

[Hardyvan123]

What part of his bolded was "complete and utter such and such"?

As you demonstrate yourself, Crosby has put up good point totals against tomato cans, and was held in check by good defensive teams. Which is exactly what myself and CYM have pointed out. He has done nothing to further his playoff legacy since 2009. What is controversial about this?

Exactly what tomato cans are you talking about here?

The league is as competitive as it ever has been as has the talent from top to bottom, calling players tomato cans in any era really undermines any argument you are trying to make and is at best ignorant and not well thought out and completely disrespectful, and really suggests a complete bias, at its worst.


well since 2009 this is how Crosby fares against the rest of the league in playoff scoring.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

That's right 13th in absolute raw scoring and 4th in PPG among the top 100 playoff point getters.

Ironically it's Getzlaf who has 1.20 PPG in 54 GP and Crosby has 1.15 in 75 GP.

That's simply elite IMO.

You, CYM and others can absolutely say that has added nothing to his playoff legacy but be sure to apply that to 95 plus % of all other players Crosby is being compared to as well when one takes out their 2 best playoff seasons.

That's the issue here applying consistent standards to all players not just certain ones.

IMO being 13th in raw points over any 6 year period 4th PPG is simply elite IMO.

Feel free to argue otherwise but I really can't see the argument.