Crosby abuse

[Til the End of Time]

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/mckenzie-se...the-playoffs-teams-may-need-enforcers-1.94641

"When I watch the Pittsburgh Penguins play, and I see the abuse that Sidney Crosby takes, I don't know if I seen a player of that stature take that much abuse. What the Columbus Blue Jackets did to Crosby in the playoffs last year, if you're the Pittsburgh Penguins, that should never be allowed."

please discuss.

Click to read more...

 

[penguins2946*]

We have Carcillo and Downie now. Other than bringing in more tough guys, there's not really much we can do. Maybe get a tough SOB to play with Sid that doesn't suck? A player like Lucic isn't exactly common.

 

[SUBdrewgANS]

what about Hornqvist? is he a type of player to stand up to the abuse?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Carcillo and Downie

 

[Kristopher Letang]

I know you guys hate Don cherry alot but he's been saying this for years. I found only 2 videos on YouTube, but I watch Coaches Corner every week and he said this at least 5 times
VS Boston playoffs (Starts at 4:20)


VS Rangers

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

I think the organization has finally understood that turning the other cheek and hoping for the refs to call anything of that sort in the playoffs is not working. I'm not too worried about it going forward.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/mckenzie-seeing-the-abuse-crosby-took-in-the-playoffs-teams-may-need-enforcers-1.94641

"When I watch the Pittsburgh Penguins play, and I see the abuse that Sidney Crosby takes, I don't know if I seen a player of that stature take that much abuse. What the Columbus Blue Jackets did to Crosby in the playoffs last year, if you're the Pittsburgh Penguins, that should never be allowed."

Bob McKenzie made a great point during this interview: You're never going to convince that the anti-fighting/people opposed to enforcers that enforcers will limit abuse to their teammates. The same can be said about the pro-fighting/pro-enforcer crowd that enforcers will not limit the abuse to their teammates.

Yes, every single fan wants toughness that can play, but it is extremely difficult to acquire players like these. I've been stating for years that Pittsburgh should get an enforcer. The team hasn't had that same brand of toughness ever since Eric Godard left.

Did Godard stop all the abuse that happened to Crosby and Malkin? No. However, he did go after players that did take advantage of them and made other players on the opposition play on the best behavior. He did his job effective, even with the instigator rule.

Many enforcers in today's are capable of playing a regular shift. Steve MacIntyre, Trevor Gillies, and Joel Rechlicz are out of the league because the demand is high for players who can play a regular shift. The new-brand of enforcers are Luke Gazdic, Anthony Peluso, and Tom Sestito. They're probably not better than your typical fourth-line player, but they're certainly not a liability on the ice.

The thread that I posted earlier.

Carcillo and Downie are good pick-ups because of the grit they provide, but they aren't going to stop the abuse because of their size and fighting ability. Carcillo and Downie rarely stick up for their teammates any way. I do not particularly believe that they will decrease the attention on Crosby and Malkin by 'agitating', if anything, I believe it would make the abuse worst.

The organization wanted the league to take care of this. And, guess what? It didn't and won't ever happpen.

Pittsburgh needs a heavyweight. Enough with the undersized middleweights. That hasn't been effective for the last three seasons. Enough with the talk about Matt Cooke being "tough". I like him because he was the perfect third-liner, not because of his agitating. Pittsburgh misses Godard.

 

[radapex]

Carcillo and Downie are good pick-ups because of the grit they provide, but they aren't going to stop the abuse because of their size and fighting ability. Carcillo and Downie rarely stick up for their teammates any way. I do not particularly believe that they will decrease the attention on Crosby and Malkin by 'agitating', if anything, I believe it would make the abuse worst.

The first words out of Downie's mouth after signing with the Pens was "if you mess with Crosby or Malkin, you're going to have to answer to me". He's well aware of the reason he was brought in.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It's embarrassing that the Pens allowed that, embarrassing and ridiculously stupid. Carcillo (maybe), Downie, Bortuzzo and maybe Despres should help with that. Presumably injuries would provide another at times. Plus I think Goc got in a fight once and Maatta dropped the gloves in the OHL once... fear them. Letang would break his hand on someone, too.

The big thing is changing that stupid mentality of not doing something about it, it's about getting the entire team to care. Bennett is never to be allowed to fight, though.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

The first words out of Downie's mouth after signing with the Pens was "if you mess with Crosby or Malkin, you're going to have to answer to me". He's well aware of the reason he was brought in.

That doesn't mean anything. Many players have stated this before, and did jack ****. Downie is 5'10", and a mediocre middleweight fighter. He doesn't put any fear into Dubinsky.

 

[radapex]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...hl/story/?id=451684+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Mr. Fraser,

In the PIT/NYR Round 2 series, there have been two separate occasions where Marc Staal has taken blatant shots to the head of Pittsburgh's Sidney Crosby. In Game 3, Staal hit Crosby with a viscous crosscheck to the back of the head. I was shocked that a penalty wasn't even called on the ice! The league then came out the following day and said that no punishment would be handed down for the hit. The following night, in Game 4, Staal again went after Crosby's head. This time it was a blatant elbow. Again, it was from behind, to the back of the head, nearly knocking the helmet off Crosby's head. Again, there was no call on the ice, and no action taken by the league.

Can you explain to me how the league and officials, in this era of "no tolerance" for hits to the head, can allow this kind of thing to go on? How can there be no call on the ice? Obviously, since there was no action for the league, or penalty called, in Game 3, Staal figured he was cleared to do it again in Game 4. I mean, if the NHL doesn't care about the well-being of its marquee players, why should Staal?

Thanks for listening. Any light you can shed on this subject would be great!

John Waclo


John:

The cross-check that Marc Staal delivered on Sidney Crosby was well beyond just a minor infraction (Video link) and worthy of at least a five-minute major and game misconduct. This aggressive cross-check delivered to the head area could not be considered an effort by a defensive player to contain, engage in a battle in battle or to clear an opponent from the front of the net. The blow did not start at the name plate on the back of the jersey and then rode up to the neck and back of the helmet. This forceful, full-arm extension cross-check went directly to the back of the neck/head of Crosby and should be considered an attempt to injure and worthy of a match penalty under rule 59.4.

For the sake of argument let's reverse the body position of Crosby where he and Staal are face-to-face. If that same force is delivered to the neck and chin of Sid he will most likely be spitting blood, 'chicklets' and perhaps even incur another broken jaw. I would sincerely hope that a match penalty would be assessed in that case and a player would be suspended for cross-checking an opponent in the face! I see a deliberate and forceful cross-check to the back of a player's neck and head to be similarly dangerous regardless of the fact it was delivered on a player with a well-documented history of concussions.

If you want to see an "old school" hit take a look at the major and game misconduct I assessed to Darian Hatcher in a game in Dallas just prior to the playoffs, when he delivered an elbow to the face of Jeremy Roenick. Roenick's jaw was dislocated, broken in three places and he had eight teeth cracked or broken. Roenick approached me on the ice spitting blood and teeth with his jaw wagging in the breeze as he attempted to say, "He 'broke' my f----n jaw!" Hatcher was suspended for seven games (including the Stars' first five playoff games) by Colin Campbell for the illegal hit. See it here.

John, you ask how these types of plays can be missed. The answer is there are too many "puck watchers" wearing stripes in these playoffs. Player safety is placed in jeopardy when these aggressive fouls are allowed to go un-penalized. This isn't "old school" officiating; just a lack of awareness.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's a full team mentality, first and foremost. It had been taken out of them by the last regime. I hope to see it come back... and I think we will. "Regular" players stuck up for each other back when this team was a real contender. You don't need goons.

 

[Shrimper]

We shamefully didn't have the players who were willng to step up and protect Crosby, so teams knew they could take a run at Crosby without risk of being penalised. Now, we have Downie, Comeau and Spaling.

 

[Jacob]

Pretty inexcusable.. especially letting a dry dick like Marc Staal target Crosby's head and neck twice. At least Dubinsky kept things reasonably clean by NHL playoff standards.

Crosby's always going to get abused, but the lack of response was embarrassing.

 

[Gooch]

That doesn't mean anything. Many players have stated this before, and did jack ****. Downie is 5'10", and a mediocre middleweight fighter. He doesn't put any fear into Dubinsky.

A heavyweight doesnt put any fear into them either as Dubinsky just has to politely decline the fight request given to him.

What Carcillo provides and to some extent Downie is that if you're going to be taking liberties with Crosby you'll now have a guy like Carcillo having a good reason to take liberties with your star player. A heavyweight enforcer wont do that, he'll merely just line up and have his staged fight with the other teams designated enforcer and call it a day.


I am absolutely in favor of fighting in hockey but the whole enforcer thing has gone away with the code and the instigator. It's useless and what you need instead is either a player of quality that can actually fight and will, or a non enforcer type who will fight and disregard any concept of the code.

 

[gordie]

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/mckenzie-se...the-playoffs-teams-may-need-enforcers-1.94641



please discuss.

The minor league head coach they had was fired in June, so I don't believe this will be an issue anymore.

 

[PensPlz]

Steve Downie and Dan Carcillo are very poor and temporary, at best, solutions to a huge and on-going problem. Sid needs protection, but what the hell are a couple of sub-15 or 20 point players going to do from the 3rd or 4th line? They can't be on the ice with Sid all the time, and they can't be running around trying to retaliate if and only -after- something does happen. That hurts the team.

We need a GM that will sack up, go out and get us a winger for Sid that is like a Lucic, Iginla (lol Byslma'd), E. Kane, Hartnell, Wayne Simmonds, Dustin Brown, or even a Brad ****ing Marchand that won't hold Sid back offensively and also have that toughness to protect him. I bet even a Chris Stewart could be molded into that type of guy.

I understand getting one of those specific players is expensive, and unrealistic, but there are and have been a lot of alternatives out there, and hell, how long have we had to get a power-forward like that? 6 years since Hossa? Nothing could be found in that amount of time? Management didn't even feel it was a problem worth addressing in the first round of the draft.

When is a GM going to deliver? Because this is simply the most embarrassing problem to have in the league.

 

[Michael8771*]

Some uninformed posters believed Sill Was a deterrent on such matters. lol

Yeah sure, that's why they brought in Downie and Carcillo. lol

 

[ETA]

He doesn't put any fear into Dubinsky.

No, but he can smear one of Dubinsky's teammates into the boards with a (hopefully) nice clean hit and maybe the other guy takes a retaliatory penalty.

And, unlike most heavyweights that we could get, Downie is good enough to dress for the playoffs.

Look, if Lucic or Chara decide to abuse Crosby there are only a handful of players who can stand up to them. And, almost none of those are good enough to play a regular shift in the regular season, let alone the playoffs.

If the refs won't call things like what Staal did to Crosby then you let the other team know that whatever they do to Crosby will be done twice as bad back to their players.

Personally I think that a lot of these issues would go away if the refs just called the game the way they should. I used to be able to tell what was and wasn't going to be a penalty but these days it's often a complete coin toss...

 

[Kristopher Letang]

Steve Downie and Dan Carcillo are very poor and temporary, at best, solutions to a huge and on-going problem. Sid needs protection, but what the hell are a couple of sub-15 or 20 point players going to do from the 3rd or 4th line? They can't be on the ice with Sid all the time, and they can't be running around trying to retaliate if and only -after- something does happen. That hurts the team.

We need a GM that will sack up, go out and get us a winger for Sid that is like a Lucic, Iginla (lol Byslma'd), E. Kane, Hartnell, Wayne Simmonds, Dustin Brown, or even a Brad ****ing Marchand that won't hold Sid back offensively and also have that toughness to protect him. I bet even a Chris Stewart could be molded into that type of guy.

I understand getting one of those specific players is expensive, and unrealistic, but there are and have been a lot of alternatives out there, and hell, how long have we had to get a power-forward like that? 6 years since Hossa? Nothing could be found in that amount of time? Management didn't even feel it was a problem worth addressing in the first round of the draft.

When is a GM going to deliver? Because this is simply the most embarrassing problem to have in the league.

No .... You didn't say Marchand. Lolll Marchand isn't tough and no he doesn't fight or protects others. He's annoying, but that's about it. He gets protected when someone is looking to beat his ass.
Amen to the rest of your post tho.

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

We shamefully didn't have the players who were willng to step up and protect Crosby, so teams knew they could take a run at Crosby without risk of being penalised. Now, we have Downie, Comeau and Spaling.

It wasn't just a player issue. I can't exactly remember who it was (or it was never revealed) but some younger guy complained that you would get benched immediately if you took a penalty while defending a teammate.


In general, I think some people misunderstand what someone like Carcillo bring to the table in terms of protection. It's not about fighting anyone. Neither Dubinsky nor Staal would have fought anyone. It's more about having someone on the roster that is capable and willing to retaliate, also in a dirty way if needed. When a game against Philly got heated because Orpik laid out Giroux on open ice, my biggest fear wasn't that Rosehill might challenge Tanner Glass, my biggest fear was Rinaldo going crazy and splitting Geno's skull with his stick.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It wasn't just a player issue. I can't exactly remember who it was (or it was never revealed) but some younger guy complained that you would get benched immediately if you took a penalty while defending a teammate.

Despres, I think?

He and Bortuzzo were benched a few times for it, at least.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Pretty inexcusable.. especially letting a dry dick like Marc Staal target Crosby's head and neck twice. At least Dubinsky kept things reasonably clean by NHL playoff standards.

Crosby's always going to get abused, but the lack of response was embarrassing.

This.... Nothing would make me happier this season than someone going after Staal. What he did was not only cheap, but dangerous. He should see his own blood against the Pens this year.

 

[PensPlz]

No .... You didn't say Marchand. Lolll Marchand isn't tough and no he doesn't fight or protects others. He's annoying, but that's about it. He gets protected when someone is looking to beat his ass.
Amen to the rest of your post tho.

I say Marchand because he can agitate enough that he'll be the focus of the abuse, not Crosby

 

[Jag68Sid87]

It's getting better (the roster), but we're not completely comfortable yet. We still need that one, big deterrent out there. I would have signed John Scott this summer. I don't care about his lack of foot speed, lack of hands, lack of hockey sense. You want this sh#t to stop, you get the biggest and the baddest on the roster. You don't even have to play him much. Just have him around as your insurance policy.

Matt Kassian was released by the Coyotes. Bissonnette is still in Blues camp, and Westgarth is still in Oilers camp. Two more possibilities.

I would not mind releasing Carcillo and replacing him with someone much bigger and badder. If we didn't have Downie (and Sill...and Farnham...and and and) I could see Carcillo having more of a role here. Both Carcillo and Downie are a bit redundant. Not that I mind it too much, but I want a bigger dude here to start making the guys feel more comfortable.

I do like the fact we have more agitation in the lineup. Those guys will definitely act as a distraction for opponents. They might not even remember to abuse our stars with Carcillo and Downie running around. But at some point, this thing is going to come to a head. We're going to have to answer the bell.

We are a team with very fragile star players (pretty much all of them). We also are a team with the real possibility of having a diminutive teenager in the lineup to start the season. If Crosby, Malkin, the injury woes and Kapanen aren't reason enough to go find an enforcer, then we'll never get it.

I really hope we address this. Rutherford had Westgarth in Carolina for a while. He's not completely against the idea, I'd like to think.