Confirmed with Link: Coyotes sign Anthony Duclair to 1-year deal $1.2M (Official)

[RemoAZ]

Both are big forwards who did not put up big numbers in junior and probably won't put up big numbers in the NHL. Not every player has to "dominate junior", producing Strome like numbers. Virtanen and Crouse will probably end up good NHL players. I have not followed Virtanen but I know Crouse progressed very well last year and played a role no one else could or did on the Coyotes.

I agree. Crouse looked good last year. I think he can score a bit more especially if he plays with better players and gets to put that huge body in front of the net on the PP. If he develops any further than that offensively it's a bonus. Sending him down to dominate guys way smaller than him wouldn't help him as much as getting used to the size and speed of the NHL last year. He'll be ready to take a stop forward this year. A huge portion of the new coaching staff's effectiveness will be how much that can teach and develop the young guys. Crouse will be one of the players I'll be watching close. Middle six power forward or 4th line wrecking ball?

 

[rt]

Chyayka is to blame on Crouse. He could have sent him down after a couple games, especially if Tipp wasn't going to play him past the 4th line.

I believe Tipp handled Duclair very poorly. We will find out this year if that is true.

Ultimately Dino-D was able to develop mid grade prospects into solid NHL'rs (Reider, Stone, to some capacity Murphy, Hanzal, Martinook). He absolutely will not take the risk in letting a high skilled player gain confidence by playing an offense-first uptempo game if it means it could result in an L. His system also stifles offense first players, which we have a ton of. The fact that Crouse had a slightly underwhelming offensive season, indicates that he may have a higher offensive ceiling then we are seeing.

Remember that Dave was technically Chayka's boss.

 

[cobra427]

Does the fact the guy who made those decisions last year got ****-canned give you any pause?

First off he didn't get canned. Second, I think Tip is a pretty good at determining who should be on the roster. He certainly can't be accused of favoring 18 and 19 year old players. Crouse being on the roster tells me he has the all around game and IQ needed to play at this level especially at his age, same with Chychrun. There was zero reason to keep either out of juniors if they were not ready. Tip didn't feel pressure from chayka to keep either up.

As for Duclair, even in his first year his minutes were pretty limited because of his all around game. Last year he didn't score, and if he doesn't score he is a liability. There was no reason to send Duclair down if it wasn't warranted.

There aren't any examples of young players that were under Tip and went some place else and developed better. Runblad and Gormley were great examples. I remember all the complaining on this board about their ice time, not being given a chance, etc.. They both went to other teams and are out of the NHL now. Turns out Tip was right in his evaluation of both players.

Bottom line, I don't see Toch having any different evaluations then Tip. If Crouse plays a solid all around game, he will make the team out of camp. Duclair likely makes the team but I can see him being sent down or his minutes limited if his all around game has not improved or he doesn't produce.

So no, I don't see Toch as a magical developer or talent evaluator versus Tip. Toch might be a better motivator and a different voice could be very helpful.

 

[_Del_]

First off he didn't get canned

Sorry, I couldn't get past this part without laughing. Too many tears in my eyes to read the rest of what I'm sure is keen analysis...

 

[rt]

Haha. Tippett just felt that his motorcycles needed more attention. He just didn't feel like coaching hockey anymore. They tried everything they could to beg him to stay but they just couldn't convince him that he hadn't already accomplished all of his professional goals. His resume speaks for itself. He had nothing left to prove in hockey. Legend.

 

[PhoPhan]

I don't think there are any players on our current roster that have been irreparably harmed by Dave Tippett. Duclair and Crouse are as close as that gets. Crouse because he was needlessly rushed to the NHL and Duclair because he development was toyed with in such a critical year. Of the two, Crouse is the one I'd be more willing to ascribe any disappointing career results to Dave Tippett's mishandling. All of which is a long-winded way of saying, if Anthony Duclair can't rebound from last season, that's not Dave Tippett's fault.

We'll see. I also suspect that if either of them performs well this season or moving forward, we'll hear they did so in spite of Tippett. That's not to say that he did or did not, only that there is no real evidence for it. I suspect we'll hear the same conclusion regardless of the results, basically.

Put another way: what could happen to vindicate Chayka and Tippett's handling of these players?

 

[Sciamachy]

If somebody like Neiderreiter can overcome the mishandling he got with the Isles and Capuano, I'm not to worried about someone like Crouse (especially since I'm not particularly that upset with how he was handled). As much as I hated how Duke was handled, ultimately I don't think either he or Crouse spent enough time under Tip that whatever paths their careers take at this point can really be attributed to him, good or bad.

 

[rt]

If somebody like Neiderreiter can overcome the mishandling he got with the Isles and Capuano, I'm not to worried about someone like Crouse (especially since I'm not particularly that upset with how he was handled). As much as I hated how Duke was handled, ultimately I don't think either he or Crouse spent enough time under Tip that whatever paths their careers take at this point can really be attributed to him, good or bad.

Fair.

 

[Jakey53]

First off he didn't get canned. Second, I think Tip is a pretty good at determining who should be on the roster. He certainly can't be accused of favoring 18 and 19 year old players. Crouse being on the roster tells me he has the all around game and IQ needed to play at this level especially at his age, same with Chychrun. There was zero reason to keep either out of juniors if they were not ready. Tip didn't feel pressure from chayka to keep either up.

As for Duclair, even in his first year his minutes were pretty limited because of his all around game. Last year he didn't score, and if he doesn't score he is a liability. There was no reason to send Duclair down if it wasn't warranted.

There aren't any examples of young players that were under Tip and went some place else and developed better. Runblad and Gormley were great examples. I remember all the complaining on this board about their ice time, not being given a chance, etc.. They both went to other teams and are out of the NHL now. Turns out Tip was right in his evaluation of both players.

Bottom line, I don't see Toch having any different evaluations then Tip. If Crouse plays a solid all around game, he will make the team out of camp. Duclair likely makes the team but I can see him being sent down or his minutes limited if his all around game has not improved or he doesn't produce.

So no, I don't see Toch as a magical developer or talent evaluator versus Tip. Toch might be a better motivator and a different voice could be very helpful.

Good post.

 

[rt]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Tocchet is a "magical" developer of young talent. I will suggest that Dave Tippett is ****ing garbage. Tocchet doesn't have to do much to be a whole lot better in this regard.

 

[Murf]

Some players just play better with certain players.. The Sedins are a great example

He had a tough start and a **** coach who did everything he could to keep him down. Now the idiot has been shown the door. Duclair is going to have a great season. He's free of the idiot. He's going to have a resurgence.

I'm not as down on DT as rt, but I basically agree with these.

This isn't fantasy hockey where every player is plug and play. Chemistry is a real thing. If you are going to have Duclair on the team, and you know he only produces in one combination, then you are an idiot if you are trying to square peg him into other combos.

Put him where it works. If you can't commit to that, then don't bother signing him. He is not a Swiss Army knife. He is a scalpel. If you try to use a scalpel like a screwdriver, you screw up the scalpel and still don't drive any screws.

 

[cobra427]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Tocchet is a "magical" developer of young talent. I will suggest that Dave Tippett is ****ing garbage. Tocchet doesn't have to do much to be a whole lot better in this regard.

Zero basis for that.

 

[Hinterland]

If somebody like Neiderreiter can overcome the mishandling he got with the Isles and Capuano, I'm not to worried about someone like Crouse (especially since I'm not particularly that upset with how he was handled). As much as I hated how Duke was handled, ultimately I don't think either he or Crouse spent enough time under Tip that whatever paths their careers take at this point can really be attributed to him, good or bad.

This isn't about Tippett. This is about being in the wrong place at a crucial time in his career. With Crouse, I'm seriously worried that he's gonna turn into Wilson 2.0 or even Virtanen 2.0. If the staff is smart enough and gives him a full AHL season he may get back on track. There's no guarantee though at that point. I hope Chayka and co learned their lesson and won't put other guys (Wood, Duclair, Keller or Strome) careers at risk by repeating their mistakes. It's how you mess up a rebuilding. Everybody saw it in Edmonton. Can't stop it soon enough.

 

[_Del_]

Zero basis for that.

And it's definitely not the reason he got not fired based on all the talk about the vibe around the team and communication and development and breaths of fresh air this off season, am I right?

 

[Toadie]

I'm not as down on DT as rt, but I basically agree with these.

Put him where it works. If you can't commit to that, then don't bother signing him. He is not a Swiss Army knife. He is a scalpel. If you try to use a scalpel like a screwdriver, you screw up the scalpel and still don't drive any screws.

AGREED

 

[cobra427]

This isn't about Tippett. This is about being in the wrong place at a crucial time in his career. With Crouse, I'm seriously worried that he's gonna turn into Wilson 2.0 or even Virtanen 2.0. If the staff is smart enough and gives him a full AHL season he may get back on track. There's no guarantee though at that point. I hope Chayka and co learned their lesson and won't put other guys (Wood, Duclair, Keller or Strome) careers at risk by repeating their mistakes. It's how you mess up a rebuilding. Everybody saw it in Edmonton. Can't stop it soon enough.

Not only the Oilers but TGO did it here too and Toch was his assistant. Tip certainly can't be accused of rushing players. I suspect Crouse stuck because his all around game was solid even though he didn't get many points. Reider and Martinook made the team the same way and have gradually improved. I expect the same from Crouse this year, I don't think he was rushed and think he will be on the roster for 82 games.

Duclair/keller/Strome are a different story. While they have high end offensive talent, they can hurt the team in other ways on D, unlike Martinook/Reider that are solid on D. The NHL is a game of mistakes and it will be interesting to see how much Toch tolerates in order to give Strome/keller/Duclair games/minutes. I suspect AHL time, healthy scratches, and less minutes then expected until all 3 improve or play well enough without the puck and limit their mistakes. Expecting these 3 players to be top 6 forwards with the defensive responsibility is asking a lot this year. It will take time and it is a process, not a switch you can turn on and off.

 

[rt]

Tippett only values specific skill sets. The only way you catch a break is if you play a game as similar as possible to the game he played. There's only one right way. The David Moss way.

 

[Toadie]

Agree and most if honest will agree to RT. Tippet only had one system which restricted offence and creativity. Dump the puck and beat the other team on the forecheck. I wish I could find it but there was an interview where he was lamb basting the team because of too many high-risk plays.. Not even errors just high risk or other words skilled plays.

 

[PerpetualTankYear]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Tocchet is a "magical" developer of young talent. I will suggest that Dave Tippett is ****ing garbage. Tocchet doesn't have to do much to be a whole lot better in this regard.

Zero basis for that.

Did Tip ever develop a star forward? Ever? Once? In his career as a coach?

 

[_Del_]

Eriksson (though Les Jackson forced Tipp's hand to rescue him from the 4th line/scratch treatment).

And Turris, who is the player he is today because of the 4th line/scratch treatment (only it only worked once he got to Ottawa who didn't do that)

And I guess Tyler Johnson who is undoubtedly a much better player today than he was before the Coyotes had him into camp and took a hard pass on another small, skill forward.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Dave Tippett gave an interview years ago and remarked on his pre-hiring discussion with Maloney. He noted that he told DM that the only way to win games with a low talent basement budget team was to play a strong trapping game designed to minimize the impact of high end offensive talent on the opposition.

While I came to agree that the team needed a new coach in order to clean house and start fresh with Barroway, I don't think that Tippett ever, ever had enough talent on this team to play the beautiful game. Unless Keller, Perlini and Fisher join Domi and Duclair as all that and a bag of chips, under a flowing, offensive game we will suffer way more than our share of 8-4 blow outs

 

[gorsk11]

Tippet played one style - defensive first. Counter the other teams mistakes. And if we got an early lead or a lead after two periods. Play safe and hold on. Even when he first got here and we had a good veteran team and played that way - It would drive me crazy to watch them sit back and be out shot in the third period.

I remember Ray Whitney after a loss like that - in an interview say - well that is what happens when sit back and play to hold on.

When the game got faster and teams got faster and the skill levels went up a notch - tip stuck to players that were defensive first. He couldn't adapt to the new style of play. He loves a checking line type of player.

 

[Jakey53]

Tippett only values specific skill sets. The only way you catch a break is if you play a game as similar as possible to the game he played. There's only one right way. The David Moss way.

Speculation on your part and one I disagree with.

Agree and most if honest will agree to RT. Tippet only had one system which restricted offence and creativity. Dump the puck and beat the other team on the forecheck. I wish I could find it but there was an interview where he was lamb basting the team because of too many high-risk plays.. Not even errors just high risk or other words skilled plays.

Your talent level dictates what kind of system you can run, plain and simple. Last year we carried the puck in as much as we dumped it and this year I expect we will be carrying the puck in even more. With more talent you can get much more creative and we should be a much better puck possession team which in turn should help out our D.

 

[Jakey53]

Dave Tippett gave an interview years ago and remarked on his pre-hiring discussion with Maloney. He noted that he told DM that the only way to win games with a low talent basement budget team was to play a strong trapping game designed to minimize the impact of high end offensive talent on the opposition.

While I came to agree that the team needed a new coach in order to clean house and start fresh with Barroway, I don't think that Tippett ever, ever had enough talent on this team to play the beautiful game. Unless Keller, Perlini and Fisher join Domi and Duclair as all that and a bag of chips, under a flowing, offensive game we will suffer way more than our share of 8-4 blow outs

Exactly. It's not a hard concept to understand.

 

[KG]

How convenient that Tippet has always played the same system regardless of his team or personnel