Confirmed with Link: Coyotes forfeit 2020 2nd round pick and a 2021 1st round pick for violating league’s combine testing

Galaxydoggystyle

Registered User
Jul 4, 2019
1,990
1,667
I don't think I am trying to justify anything.

Right now, the only information we know is that no one is mentioning this again. So, either one of two things happened:

A. This was a clear and direct violation of cheating.

B. The violation is not clear, but the NHL is pissed because a loophole was exposed.

The fact that people aren't bringing up what happened has me wondering just how much A came into play. If the cheating was so rampant and obvious, why is there so much secrecy in what was done? That's the part that doesn't fit. What is the purpose of keeping something secret, if there is direct evidence linking a massive violation of rules?
I think the reason why it is being left alone and details aren't being put out is because its most likely your team got off with a "light" punishment. If anything its normal to take away picks AND get a huge fine but all you guys got was draft picks taken away. I think the NHL is doing your owner a favor by not leaking out the details just my opinion though.

EDIT

For example in the NFL New England took a 1.1m dollar fine and lost a 3rd for cheating. You guys just lost the draft picks but no fine was given.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
I think the reason why it is being left alone and details aren't being put out is because its most likely your team got off with a "light" punishment. If anything its normal to take away picks AND get a huge fine but all you guys got was draft picks taken away. I think the NHL is doing your owner a favor by not leaking out the details just my opinion though.

I actually can agree with this. It is very possible that a larger punishment was ready, but the Coyotes, by pleading guilty, lost the picks that they did. Well, if this was for 20 players, okay. What if this was for more players than that? What if for less?

Plus, as we know, they have already been pegged for cheating. What more damage could be revealed toward the team by making the info public?
 

Galaxydoggystyle

Registered User
Jul 4, 2019
1,990
1,667
I actually can agree with this. It is very possible that a larger punishment was ready, but the Coyotes, by pleading guilty, lost the picks that they did. Well, if this was for 20 players, okay. What if this was for more players than that? What if for less?

Plus, as we know, they have already been pegged for cheating. What more damage could be revealed toward the team by making the info public?
I think this was how it was going to work it was either take a huge fine and lose a 1st round draft pick OR no fine and lose a 1st and a second round draft pick. I think your owner chose the second choice because the fine was much more costly then a 2nd rounder.

As for how many players were tested it must have been high enough number that your owner would have gladly chose to lose a 2nd round pick then take that huge fine because from what I read somewhere I think it was something like a 250k fine PER PLAYER?

The damage for releasing this type of information is to save face from the public and two not have other owners/general managers question the NHL on its sentence and if owners/general managers have ALL the details they could weigh the penalties for other teams to do it. Lets say my Habs a fine would do f*** all to our team we are so rich. Losing those draft picks might not even hurt us either BUT the information we get on the next crop of prospects is much more valuable.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
I think the reason why it is being left alone and details aren't being put out is because its most likely your team got off with a "light" punishment. If anything its normal to take away picks AND get a huge fine but all you guys got was draft picks taken away. I think the NHL is doing your owner a favor by not leaking out the details just my opinion though.

EDIT

For example in the NFL New England took a 1.1m dollar fine and lost a 3rd for cheating. You guys just lost the draft picks but no fine was given.

Yes, I referenced all of these. The reason why I referenced this is because the entire story is presented.

The Pats were fined and docked a pick because they were found filming information, and did not check with the league and Bengals first. It was not even meant to be a video for learning purposes for the players. The people were part of an independent crew hired by NE, and not even part of their normal film team.

All of this information is known because details were revealed. In just about every cheating scandal in sports, the method to cheating is revealed, whether text messages between Brady and the ball boy, or whatever other info is gleaned.

Yet, this particular instance involves no one talking about what actually took place.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
The damage for releasing this type of information is to save face from the public and two not have other owners/general managers question the NHL on its sentence and if owners/general managers have ALL the details they could weigh the penalties for other teams to do it. Lets say my Habs a fine would do f*** all to our team we are so rich. Losing those draft picks might not even hurt us either BUT the information we get on the next crop of prospects is much more valuable.

Regarding what other teams would think - first of all, by revealing what was done, that should close the loop in case other teams were thinking of using the same gray area, or it may bring up a question regarding the way the rule is posited.

If other GMs see that the price to doing so is not that costly to them, clarifying the rule makes it so that no one tries this again.

Otherwise, all you have is one side stating guilt, one side agreeing to guilt, but no further understanding of how the rule in place needs to be evolved so that something like this doesn't happen again.
 

Galaxydoggystyle

Registered User
Jul 4, 2019
1,990
1,667
Regarding what other teams would think - first of all, by revealing what was done, that should close the loop in case other teams were thinking of using the same gray area, or it may bring up a question regarding the way the rule is posited.

If other GMs see that the price to doing so is not that costly to them, clarifying the rule makes it so that no one tries this again.

Otherwise, all you have is one side stating guilt, one side agreeing to guilt, but no further understanding of how the rule in place needs to be evolved so that something like this doesn't happen again.
Or the NHL can easily just send out an email to the rest of league detailing what would happen if this took place again and again the important part save face from the public which means a lot more then most people think.

All leagues/corporations have one thing in common and that is the importance of the public image. The only league that doesn't give a f*** about that is the MLB lol.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
Or the NHL can easily just send out an email to the rest of league detailing what would happen if this took place again and again the important part save face from the public which means a lot more then most people think.

All leagues/corporations have one thing in common and that is the importance of the public image. The only league that doesn't give a f*** about that is the MLB lol.

You just repeated what I said. Any email to the league regarding how this went down addresses what possible changes to punishment or interpretation of the rule are being addressed. If you send that out to all teams, you are essentially defining to all owners exactly how to prevent this from happening, and creating an extension of the ruling, so that teams are aware of the harshness of the punishment. As such, when sent out to all 31 teams, that should be pretty public knowledge.

The fact that neither the leaguw nor the team is releasing anything on this seems very odd. Again, regardless of to what extent cheating went on, cheating usually doesn't go hush-hush afterwards.

Richards cheated the substance abuse policy by being found with coke in Vegas, no? I think we found out about that pretty soon after, and there wasn't a "LVPD and the Kings aren't speaking on this further" message. Obviously, not much to the story, you either possess a drug or you don't.

Look at tht Patriots, the Astros, or others accused of cheating recently. We have clear information as to what was done, how it was done, how it evolved, etc. I haven't heard anything specific on what went down here, which is not normal in a cheating scandal.
 
Last edited:

Galaxydoggystyle

Registered User
Jul 4, 2019
1,990
1,667
You just repeated what I said. Any email to the league regarding how this went down addresses what possible changes to punishment or interpretation of the rule are being addressed. If you send that out to all teams, you are essentially defining to all owners exactly how to prevent this from happening, and creating an extension of the ruling, so that teams are aware of the harshness of the punishment. As such, when sent out to all 31 teams, that should be pretty public knowledge.
Maybe the NHL doesn't want it as public knowledge? as much as it sucks for the public not all information is going to be given and we will have to accept that but I ain't no lawyer so I don't really know.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
Maybe the NHL doesn't want it as public knowledge? as much as it sucks for the public not all information is going to be given and we will have to accept that but I ain't no lawyer so I don't really know.

Why would you not want something to be public knowledge if you just successfully stopped a team from cheating?
 

Galaxydoggystyle

Registered User
Jul 4, 2019
1,990
1,667
Why would you not want something to be public knowledge if you just successfully stopped a team from cheating?
Because it makes the NHL look bad as a whole for letting it happen. Especially when it involves bordering underage kids. You have to remember most of these prospects just turned 18 and are only one year or a few short months removed from being called "under age" which is a massive no no in the eyes of the cancel culture that is going on right now.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
Because it makes the NHL look bad as a whole for letting it happen. Especially when it involves bordering underage kids. You have to remember most of these prospects just turned 18 and are only one year or a few short months removed from being called "under age" which is a massive no no in the eyes of the cancel culture that is going on right now.

Then, how much are the Coyotes to blame if a rule is written in a way that makes the NHL look worse if an item of "gross negligence" on our part created the loophole?

To me, that sounds like it could be just as much gross negligence on the part of the NHL if there was a rule that was open to interpretation that was not closed.
 

Galaxydoggystyle

Registered User
Jul 4, 2019
1,990
1,667
Then, how much are the Coyotes to blame if a rule is written in a way that makes the NHL look worse if an item of "gross negligence" on our part created the loophole?

To me, that sounds like it could be just as much gross negligence on the part of the NHL if there was a rule that was open to interpretation that was not closed.
No idea my man I just gave you some reasons why the NHL did it the way they did. I am not sure if what I am saying is right but it gives you some ideas. In the end though it really doesn't matter if they didn't give the public the information what matters is the league caught the team cheating and the team was penalized for it. Diving deeper into it is just going to drive you nuts.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
No idea my man I just gave you some reasons why the NHL did it the way they did. I am not sure if what I am saying is right but it gives you some ideas. In the end though it really doesn't matter if they didn't give the public the information what matters is the league caught the team cheating and the team was penalized for it. Diving deeper into it is just going to drive you nuts.

I get it.

There are certain processes that kind of follow a pattern. Usually when the other side (the accusing party, the NHL) also doesn't comment, when almost every league has a statement that gives far more information entailing the efforts into cheating, that is also a flag, of sorts.

It looks more in comparison to the Kovalchuk contract, where 24 hours after the contract had been signed, the NHL says that they need to void it. Is that because the league didn't do the due diligence to prevent that well enough in the first place?
 

87turbobuick

Registered User
Jan 13, 2011
977
293
Phoenix
They released the penalties when the focus is on the riots. It is standard business practice to do this when media attention is elsewhere. It has already been forgotten now that the league caved and cancelled games.
 

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,204
9,212
Meruelo would be justified in trying to sell his stake with the Coyotes. Bettman did him dirty. This is bad business and not a good look for the NHL. Who will want to go in with their fortunes with decisions like this? I am now onboard with Canada. Bettman out!
Meruelo is not going to sell the team over something some small as this. Chayka did the NHL dirty not the other way around. Not sure how long you have followed hockey but we are not the first team to get punished and we will not be the last.
 
Last edited:

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,204
9,212
Why would you not want something to be public knowledge if you just successfully stopped a team from cheating?
The team is a privately owned company and it does not have to divulge their operation to the public, it's now of our business. It's not a public run company. It's the NHL and the Coyotes decision to what details the public get.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
The team is a privately owned company and it does not have to divulge their operation to the public, it's now of our business. It's not a public run company. It's the NHL and the Coyotes decision to what details the public get.

If you spend money on tickets for a team, wouldn't you want to know if that investment supports shady things going on? If you have ads in a building or naming rights, shouldn't you know what is being supported.

I understand that the NHL is a private company. So are the NFL, MLB, and other sports leagues. Yet, they provided details as to how the Astros used signals and evolved their program. I understand that not every team or league has to do the same thing. But, I think it is in the best interest to do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Coyotedroppings

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,204
9,212
If you spend money on tickets for a team, wouldn't you want to know if that investment supports shady things going on? If you have ads in a building or naming rights, shouldn't you know what is being supported.

I understand that the NHL is a private company. So are the NFL, MLB, and other sports leagues. Yet, they provided details as to how the Astros used signals and evolved their program. I understand that not every team or league has to do the same thing. But, I think it is in the best interest to do so.
The NHL said the Coyotes physically tested over 20 players prior to the NHL combine. That is the crime. If you can't understand that I can't help you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GhostofTommyBolin

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
5,581
1,350
The NHL said the Coyotes physically tested over 20 players prior to the NHL combine. That is the crime. If you can't understand that I can't help you.

Since everything that everyone says is the exact truth, no matter what?

We tested players. What tests did we perform?

This was an article written on June 10th - what changed since then, or is a 1st and 2nd round pick considered not substantial by our owner:

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/pena...ations-wont-be-substantial-according-to-owner
 
Last edited:

moosemeister

5,000 strong
Feb 15, 2010
9,686
10,978
Mesa, Arizona
Two draft picks is better than $250,000 a player we tested for AM. Imagine if the rumor of 20 players (or more) is true.

What if the choices of punishment were a five million dollar fine, or 2 draft picks. Which penalty seems less severe to AM who is bleeding money everywhere?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GhostofTommyBolin

GhostofTommyBolin

Registered User
Aug 18, 2016
1,229
1,191
Chandler, AZ
I can’t even get anyone I know within the team to give me anything definitive.
What the hell is going on here?
I am being told there was actual physical testing, but with no particulars.
So you think you're entitled to knowing if they made guys lift weights or run a 40 yard dash? C'mon, man. Seriously. They admitted to "physical fitness testing". What do you need to know beyond that? This is getting funnier with each post. I'm not a season ticket holder but I buy plenty of tickets; however, I don't think that entitles me to know what Garland had for lunch or when Keller takes a shit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fuhrious and DOTS13

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,204
9,212
So you think you're entitled to knowing if they made guys lift weights or run a 40 yard dash? C'mon, man. Seriously. They admitted to "physical fitness testing". What do you need to know beyond that? This is getting funnier with each post. I'm not a season ticket holder but I buy plenty of tickets; however, I don't think that entitles me to know what Garland had for lunch or when Keller takes a shit.
Exactly. This craziness has stopped being funny after the third or fourth post. Utterly ridiculous.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad