Confirmed with Link: Coyotes forfeit 2020 2nd round pick and a 2021 1st round pick for violating league’s combine testing

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,136
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Edit: it’s not spilled milk, it’s blatant stupidity from a franchise that seems hellbent on spiraling to oblivion. Perhaps you’re angry too and want to sweep it under the rug, to keep from giving your old ticker too much the workout?
Not sure if I'm angry, probably more disappointed on why this happened in the first place. Life is not kind when things do no go our way, but we have to take responsibility and move on and hope we learn from it.
 

Coyotedroppings

Registered User
Jul 16, 2017
6,571
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Not sure if I'm angry, probably more disappointed on why this happened in the first place. Life is not kind when things do no go our way, but we have to take responsibility and move on and hope we learn from it.
That’s just it, I want to know The who and what because it’s not my responsibility (I merely help fund them) and if it’s too egregious (IMO) and all involved are not terminated, I may let them move on w/o me.
 

PainForShane

formerly surfshop
Dec 24, 2019
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Not relevant to my point nor what I was agreeing with. Meruelo was a blessing to this team and the entire league. The franchise is already unstable, COVID-19 is going to wreck the finances of the league and then the league tells Meruelo "Sorry, we are hampering you even further for something that did not happen on your watch". The "crime" wasn't even something to get worked up over.

See this is why I think Bettman might have actually been lenient on us. New owner that people seem to like, Bettman wants this franchise to succeed and we’ve needed a new arena for some time. Integrity violations like this do not help our image. If anything Bettman would want this scandal to go away so we stay competitive and maybe get to play in a partially tax- subsidized arena Tempe or South Scottsdale in a few years.

After thinking about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if we did something really, really bad and Bettman went out of his way to give us a light punishment
 

BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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See this is why I think Bettman might have actually been lenient on us. New owner that people seem to like, Bettman wants this franchise to succeed and we’ve needed a new arena for some time. Integrity violations like this do not help our image. If anything Bettman would want this scandal to go away so we stay competitive and maybe get to play in a partially tax- subsidized arena Tempe or South Scottsdale in a few years.

After thinking about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if we did something really, really bad and Bettman went out of his way to give us a light punishment

Very possible. But, we will never know when both sides go completely silent, and the side that could reveal the extent of what was done refuses to do so. That's exactly what is being argued here, and I am open to hearing everything. My questions have been more tied to the idea that most cheating scandals have a conclusion with details of what went down. This is not one of those, and that is a juxtaposition to what is typically done.

One other theory that could be made is with regard to what sort of physical test was being done? Here's a dumb thought - Chayka seemed to be the type that was big into what are you putting into your body, how your body is performing, etc. - correct? What if they were taking a heart rate monitor test after practices, games, and at rest? That is clearly a test, and I am not suggesting that this gives them a pass. But I also think that the NHL should be aware of what information people are gathering to make decisions on players, and how that impacts things.
I would envision that heart rate tests are now far more commonplace in sports (possibly as a result of analytics in high aerobic activity sports like hockey, basketball, or soccer).​

Your heart rate increasing is a byproduct of the sport you play, so the physical test is not a direct result of a test that our scouts gave the players, like a bench press test in the moment. In theory, we never put the player through a physical test because the game taking place was the actual physical test, but data was still collected on the player and the means in which we are using the data should be noted. So, they are comparing the heart rate after games, etc. to see who is capable of managing a certain load of work, what types of recovery the player has, or other items that heart rate may be correlated to. I do think that if the NHL doesn't also expand its understanding of what analytics are being used to evaluate the fitness of a player, it also leaves them open to something like this. A heart rate test could seem so innocuous that it slips through, but lends creedence to the idea of what Bettman stated as a method of "gross incompetence," moreso than some sort of planned methodology.

Bear in mind, the Craig Cunningham, Jay Bouwmeester, and Rich Peverley's of the hockey world have happened. If you are going to invest in a draft pick, if there is a way to formulate the risk of someone having a cardiac episode, wouldn't you want that information, if for nothing else but saving the life of someone in the future or having them be aware of an issue? Again, I am not questioning the penalty at this point, because it is clear that the NHL considers this a test that can't be performed. But it would be nice to hear the underlying context of what was being done. I am not trying to justify what was done, but there is context that should be understood as to what testing took place.
 

DOTS13

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Dec 4, 2019
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Very possible. But, we will never know when both sides go completely silent, and the side that could reveal the extent of what was done refuses to do so. That's exactly what is being argued here, and I am open to hearing everything. My questions have been more tied to the idea that most cheating scandals have a conclusion with details of what went down. This is not one of those, and that is a juxtaposition to what is typically done.

One other theory that could be made is with regard to what sort of physical test was being done? Here's a dumb thought - Chayka seemed to be the type that was big into what are you putting into your body, how your body is performing, etc. - correct? What if they were taking a heart rate monitor test after practices, games, and at rest? That is clearly a test, and I am not suggesting that this gives them a pass. But I also think that the NHL should be aware of what information people are gathering to make decisions on players, and how that impacts things.
I would envision that heart rate tests are now far more commonplace in sports (possibly as a result of analytics in high aerobic activity sports like hockey, basketball, or soccer).

Your heart rate increasing is a byproduct of the sport you play, so the physical test is not a direct result of a test that our scouts gave the players, like a bench press test in the moment. In theory, we never put the player through a physical test because the game taking place was the actual physical test, but data was still collected on the player and the means in which we are using the data should be noted. So, they are comparing the heart rate after games, etc. to see who is capable of managing a certain load of work, what types of recovery the player has, or other items that heart rate may be correlated to. I do think that if the NHL doesn't also expand its understanding of what analytics are being used to evaluate the fitness of a player, it also leaves them open to something like this. A heart rate test could seem so innocuous that it slips through, but lends creedence to the idea of what Bettman stated as a method of "gross incompetence," moreso than some sort of planned methodology.

Bear in mind, the Craig Cunningham, Jay Bouwmeester, and Rich Peverley's of the hockey world have happened. If you are going to invest in a draft pick, if there is a way to formulate the risk of someone having a cardiac episode, wouldn't you want that information, if for nothing else but saving the life of someone in the future or having them be aware of an issue? Again, I am not questioning the penalty at this point, because it is clear that the NHL considers this a test that can't be performed. But it would be nice to hear the underlying context of what was being done. I am not trying to justify what was done, but there is context that should be understood as to what testing took place.

Pretty honorable thought here Bux, but I highly doubt this was the case. Sudden Cardiac Arrest is a result of far more than just heart rate. They would have to conduct EKGs, VO2 tests, bloodwork, echocardiograms, and cardiac MRIs. I think that is something that should be (and probably is to some extent) happening at the League level.

The heart rate monitor on the ice, sure I could see that. But to say he is trying to prevent someone from going into cardiac arrest is... well... you said it not me!
 
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BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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Pretty honorable thought here Bux, but I highly doubt this was the case. Sudden Cardiac Arrest is a result of far more than just heart rate. They would have to conduct EKGs, VO2 tests, bloodwork, echocardiograms, and cardiac MRIs. I think that is something that should be (and probably is to some extent) happening at the League level.

The heart rate monitor on the ice, sure I could see that. But to say he is trying to prevent someone from going into cardiac arrest is... well... you said it not me!

I get that there is more to it, haha, then just that, but the way that I look at it is data creates links to the past that help progress the future. Think of concussions and hockey. Is one concussion the point where CTE starts to show? Two? Is there a period of time or severity that links the capability of someone to come back?

I would see this scenario as no different. Obviously, I don't think there is an answer, but let's say that 20 years down the line, there is a list of athletes (hockey or otherwise) that pass on or cannot play the game due to some medical issue as relates to the heart. Would any of this information create a greater likelihood of identifying someone who may have that happen?

This is obviously the most extreme case, and probably unlikely, but medicine and health evolve every day. It would not surprise me if links could be made on data like this. Thinking about that in terms of a GM - depending on what heart rate factors can tell you or what is gleaned from that data or information, maybe it gives some clues as to what minutes can be expected out of a player when maturation is reached.

EDIT: for these purposes, if someone cared to review what information could be used, solely based on heart rate info:

Heart Rate Monitoring and its usage in team sports | Sonda Sports
 
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PainForShane

formerly surfshop
Dec 24, 2019
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Jamieh thanks for sharing that. Looks like Friedman has sources who like him (thanks Elliotte), which is great for us fans in this barely-served market.

Everyone who posts here (and the lurkers who are interested in our team) should read this 31 thoughts. The quote that got my attention (part of point 10):

"At the beginning, Arizona acknowledged a violation, but argued it did not deserve a stiff penalty. The Coyotes brought up minutes from a June 2003 league meeting, where it was discussed that teams had violated policy but not been punished. Campbell replied by saying the NHL has worked since then to make sure everyone is aware of the rules, and that was 17 years ago."

I laughed out loud after reading this. What an argument to make
 
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rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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Reading that this frustrating. It sounds like Bettman bent to the will of wealthier and more vindictive owners who were out for blood regardless of the facts in the ground. Extremely disappointing.

Suspending Chayka and some fines seems much more reasonable. Certainly, confining sanctions to this specific draft is completely sound logically. Extending it to 2021, given that Chayka is gone, seems extraordinarily draconian.
 

XX

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Dec 10, 2002
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Tommy Powers has been around for awhile and is a massive dumbass, based on what was said.

You probably shouldn't have to tell your strength coach not to test guys. He knew better. Why he thought it was a passable idea is beyond me.
 

Canis Latrans

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Jan 19, 2015
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I still don't understand the sentiment by other teams' management that because of this year's strange circumstances with no regular combine, the penalty should be more severe. Again, in tallying up the arguments for an against the punishment, it seems to be overly severe. The fact that they can point to previous violations by other teams that went unpunished being the strongest I think, while the technicality of the rules never being officially ratified makes more of a case for the Coyotes outright avoiding any penalty whatsoever.

The angle of there being NHL teams who also own junior teams is interesting and I think a valid point. How do you control access to information from an owner of a team without having them just outright banned from owning junior teams? I don't see how the league could ever mandate that, and if they did, it'd open up economic issues for those teams no doubt because some of them likely need ownership with pockets as deep as an NHL owner else they would struggle to go out of business. So I don't think the junior leagues would like it if what's likely their biggest fans and biggest wallets could no longer own teams.

Because of this, I doubt you see action from the league to restrict this, and because it arguably offers an even stronger way to get around the rules the Coyotes have been allegedly flouting, I can see a case for getting the penalties reduced.
 
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hbk

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Tommy Powers has been around for awhile and is a massive dumbass, based on what was said.

You probably shouldn't have to tell your strength coach not to test guys. He knew better. Why he thought it was a passable idea is beyond me.
Why send the strength coach on the scouting trip without instruction? He’s a strength coach. It’s what he knows. It’s what he understands. He’s gonna do what he knows unless you clearly tell him not to do what he was originally hired for.
 

hbk

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I still don't understand the sentiment by other teams' management that because of this year's strange circumstances with no regular combine, the penalty should be more severe. Again, in tallying up the arguments for an against the punishment, it seems to be overly severe. The fact that they can point to previous violations by other teams that went unpunished being the strongest I think, while the technicality of the rules never being officially ratified makes more of a case for the Coyotes outright avoiding any penalty whatsoever.

The angle of there being NHL teams who also own junior teams is interesting and I think a valid point. How do you control access to information from an owner of a team without having them just outright banned from owning junior teams? I don't see how the league could ever mandate that, and if they did, it'd open up economic issues for those teams no doubt because some of them likely need ownership with pockets as deep as an NHL owner else they would struggle to go out of business. So I don't think the junior leagues would like it if what's likely their biggest fans and biggest wallets could no longer own teams.

Because of this, I doubt you see action from the league to restrict this, and because it arguably offers an even stronger way to get around the rules the Coyotes have been allegedly flouting, I can see a case for getting the penalties reduced.
You could do some investigation/audit when teams already players from their own junior teams. It is fairly rare but not uncommon. Oilers traded for Reinhart from the Isles. Worked out real well for them :). That extra data came in handy when he completely busted.
 

Canis Latrans

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You could do some investigation/audit when teams already players from their own junior teams. It is fairly rare but not uncommon. Oilers traded for Reinhart from the Isles. Worked out real well for them :). That extra data came in handy when he completely busted.
Sure, but it has the potential to be an advantage. You also cannot account for how often they pass by on players for whom they have more firsthand knowledge; I'd wager that's more often the case.
 

hbk

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Sure, but it has the potential to be an advantage. You also cannot account for how often they pass by on players for whom they have more firsthand knowledge; I'd wager that's more often the case.
It’s a fairly weak argument. That being said it’s also a fairly obvious one. Has NHL ensured there was a Chinese wall in place? If no, then what measures have they taken to ensure this isn’t occurring. Do NHl teams have access to their minor league data? That’s an issue.
 

Gwyddbwyll

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Dec 24, 2002
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At first I thought it was a great argument as it's definitely data that other teams dont have access to. But it's only 1 in 90+ teams so not a huge edge. Also the data collected there is probably not directly comparable to other data sources on other players (eg/ the combine) having been collected at different ages and conditions.
 

87turbobuick

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It shows how Chayka was unready for his promotion to the top. a short tenure as an assistant before becoming the big guy. His alleged denial that he knew nothing reminded me of Sergeant Schultz.
 
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