Coyotes Fans Only: Is Tippett(coaching staff) the Problem

[Antonche]

Trade Hanzal and Stone for 1RD.

The next season lines must be:
Domi-Dvorak-Duclair
Perlini-Strome-McGinn
Rieder-Martinook-Doan
Crouse-Richardson-Jooris

OEL-Murphy (Shatt, Hamilton, Trouba ???)
GoGo-DeAngelo
Chychrun-Wood

Smith-Hill

It's time to throw the youth in hell

 

[hbk]

We apparently got permission to chat w Shattenkirk on extension but didn't like the ask. Safe to say he wants more than OEL.

Hamilton isn't available and Trouba and the Jets aren't a great match. (Jets are a Team full of top prospects).

 

[Jakey53]

Agreed. I do not think Tip ever had that reputation in the NHL anyway. Tip is giving all the young guys, bar none, even Strome, a chance to succeed and get better. Part of that is sheltered minutes, the right match up's, the right line mates, being healthy scratched, and the AHL, back and forth a bit. It is a balancing act between being responsible and not making too many mistakes. There is give and take, it is a learning process. I think Tip has way exceeded the number of rookies playing and their TOI that I expected.

This.

I really have trouble understanding some of the anti-Tipp arguments.

Say they don't care about the record, it's a development year.
Team is bad, Fire Tippett.

Want a lot of young players on the team.
There's about 10 players 23 and under, or with 2 years or less experience.
Complain that 2 of the 10 aren't getting enough minutes.

Say Tippett ruins all young players.
There's only been 2(?) top picks under Tippett that are complete busts, Samuelson and Gormley


And these are some of the ones that are brought up most often.

I agree, but why are Samuelson and Gormley DT's fault?

 

[Jakey53]

Trade Hanzal and Stone for 1RD.

The next season lines must be:
Domi-Dvorak-Duclair
Perlini-Strome-McGinn
Rieder-Martinook-Doan
Crouse-Richardson-Jooris

OEL-Murphy (Shatt, Hamilton, Trouba ???)
GoGo-DeAngelo
Chychrun-Wood

Smith-Hill

It's time to throw the youth in hell

I don't think Doan or Jooris will be with the club next year.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Trade Hanzal and Stone for 1RD.

The next season lines must be:
Domi-Dvorak-Duclair
Perlini-Strome-McGinn
Rieder-Martinook-Doan
Crouse-Richardson-Jooris

OEL-Murphy (Shatt, Hamilton, Trouba ???)
GoGo-DeAngelo
Chychrun-Wood

Smith-Hill

It's time to throw the youth in hell

Some problems here: Richardson is not a banger and should not be onthe 4th line. Martinook is better on wing than at center. Crouse should be on the 3rd line.

Domi - Richardson - Duclair. Dvorak and Strome aren't ready for 1C yet.
Perlini - Strome - Reider. IIRC Reider can play both wings.
Crouse -Dvorak- Fischer
Martinook - White/Holland/Gaudet/Dauphin - McGinn

This gives us 3 lines with balanced scoring. I would like to see Crouse, a banger with great speed setting up Fischer, who has a scoring touch which Crouse lacks.

 

[kihekah19*]

I agree, but why are Samuelson and Gormley DT's fault?

These young men were blessed by the hockey Gods, only to have Lucifer, yes one Dave Tippett destroy all that was sacred and holy in their games.

To ride on the commercial's coat tails.... when you're Dave Tippet, it's what you do.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I agree, but why are Samuelson and Gormley DT's fault?

These young men were blessed by the hockey Gods, only to have Lucifer, yes one Dave Tippett destroy all that was sacred and holy in their games.

To ride on the commercial's coat tails.... when you're Dave Tippet, it's what you do.

(Friday night in beer league, my teammate had to borrow my spare stick because his lone stick broke. It happened to be a pro-stock, one of Gormley's. I told him "meh, you won't miss it" )

 

[Matias Maccete]

This.



I agree, but why are Samuelson and Gormley DT's fault?

These young men were blessed by the hockey Gods, only to have Lucifer, yes one Dave Tippett destroy all that was sacred and holy in their games.

To ride on the commercial's coat tails.... when you're Dave Tippet, it's what you do.

The poster you two are talking about is often defending Tippett against allegations of ruining young players and is doing exactly that in the post. He's also not saying Tippett ruined them, he simply stated that there's been only two busts under Tippett.

 

[kihekah19*]

The poster you two are talking about is often defending Tippett against allegations of ruining young players and is doing exactly that in the post. He's also not saying Tippett ruined them, he simply stated that there's been only two busts under Tippett.

While I can't speak for Mr. Jakey, I can tell you that I'm not "talking about" any one poster in particular.

 

[cactus shake]

I really have trouble understanding some of the anti-Tipp arguments.

Say they don't care about the record, it's a development year.
Team is bad, Fire Tippett.

Want a lot of young players on the team.
There's about 10 players 23 and under, or with 2 years or less experience.
Complain that 2 of the 10 aren't getting enough minutes.

I think I'm probably happier than most with the TOI distribution. But I also think development has to be linked to the play on the ice in some way, which doesn't just mean the record. I want our prospects to join a functioning team, which this hasn't been for some time. It doesn't have to mean shot metrics (at either end), it would be nice to just create a positive in one area by the end of the season: be it a good forecheck, transition out of the defensive zone, or better special teams. Young players will be inconsistent, but we haven't even put in a good 60 minutes yet, let alone something positive over a couple of games in a row.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Turris' name also comes up a lot, and I would like to get an idea of why people say that Tippett rode him out of town, too.

I think that people mistake the idea of DT stifling Turris' play vs. the idea of Turris stifling his own play.

Turris is a talented player, no question. But the fact is that a spot on the team is earned and not just given as a hand out. It seemed as if though Turris assumed that he was going to be on the team in 09-10. He could have put himself in the position to earn that spot in that season, and do the same thing the next year. Is that Turris' fault or Tippett's?

While some may claim Tippett is the issue, what would happen if Turris were given his spot on the top 2 lines by default? A coach will lose the room if you start making "exceptions" for certain players. If you give Turris the chance in a certain role that he may not be as prepared for, you open the door for other players to do the same. Demand that you get played or sit out/don't sign deals, and then you have a team littered with players who may be in over their heads.

Instead, Turris could have used the opportunity to go down to the AHL in 09-10 and then play his way on to the top 6 or top 9 the next year. Instead, what we got was a poor attitude through the '10-11 season. You want to play in the top 6 - you earn it. Same way that we, as non-NHL athletes, have our goals in mind. I want to own my own company some day. I have to earn it. I don't just demand that I get my business for the sake of.

After he signed his bridge deal late in 11-12 season, Turris went to Maloney a few games later and simply said that he wanted out. Does that sound like a Tippett issue, or a Turris issue? If Tippett didn't give Turris the opportunity, maybe that is a small case to be made. But at what point had Turris earned those opportunities?

Remember that he didn't truly work his way into Ottawa's top 6 until injuries hit their Cs. So, it definitely wasn't a question of him necessarily playing his way into that role, either. Still took some time for him to blossom, which I would suspect is exactly what Tippett would have had in mind if Turris hadn't bailed.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

I think Turris' issues started under Gretzky, who did rush him and others into the NHL. I think he got it in his head that he deserved to be in the NHL when he wasn't ready.

I think his agent was a big part in it. Trouba has the same agent and did the same thing.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I think Turris' issues started under Gretzky, who did rush him and others into the NHL. I think he got it in his head that he deserved to be in the NHL when he wasn't ready.

I think his agent was a big part in it. Trouba has the same agent and did the same thing.

I actually spoke to DM once about Turris. He told me that there were no other NHL ready centers in the system and that the team had no choice but to play a teenager at C. I don't know how much of the situation was caused by that or by Turris shoe horning his way onto the team, but there is that to consider.

 

[_Del_]

Make all the excuses you want, but when they traded him they said they thought he was a better fit lower in the lineup, and that the team had a time line for him which was different than Turris's timeline. Which strongly implies he was going to get the 4th line treatment (again), and Turris thought he was ready to contribute. And when Ottawa recognized this and "just handed" him a slot in the top6, he excelled.

 

[_Del_]

Remember that he didn't truly work his way into Ottawa's top 6 until injuries hit their Cs. So, it definitely wasn't a question of him necessarily playing his way into that role, either*.

BS
This is a revisionist lie. He slotted in immediately as 2C and had 13 points and was +13 in his first 16 games with Ottawa. Nice try.

 

[XX]

BS
This is a revisionist lie. He slotted in immediately as 2C and had 13 points and was +13 in his first 16 games with Ottawa. Nice try.

Pretty funny how DT is one less Mueller concussion away from not having this entire smoke screen. 20 points in 15 games with Colorado after his trade.

 

[_Del_]

I've asked before, but can anyone give an example of an NHL coach who has missed on two legitimate upcoming talents the quality of Eriksson and Turris? I'm sure that we could all name a coach that gave up on a guy who later blossomed under a new coach, but who has spent time with and missed on Turris, Eriksson(, and possibly Mueller, Tyler Johnson), quality talents?

Is Dvorak actually worse and less NHL ready than Tkachuk? Or have we neutered him and made him look bad with misusage? Noone thought Tkachuk was more developed than Dvorak. They were teammates. Dvorak and Marner were team MVPs. Flipped a coin. But two of those teammates are flourishing in top6 roles, and the most NHL ready, least risky one of the three is bouncing around the AHL, bench, and fourth line with spot duty in the top six. Why?

 

[TheLegend]

Make all the excuses you want, but when they traded him they said they thought he was a better fit lower in the lineup, and that the team had a time line for him which was different than Turris's timeline. Which strongly implies he was going to get the 4th line treatment (again), and Turris thought he was ready to contribute. And when Ottawa recognized this and "just handed" him a slot in the top6, he excelled.

The true knock on Turris was he wasn't a 200 foot player and didn't want to become one.

Ottawa didn't care about that and that's why he's had more success with them.

 

[CC96]

We don't need every forward to be Tobias Rieder.

Also, Turris has been very respectable defensively, since like day 1, in Ottawa.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

I've asked before, but can anyone give an example of an NHL coach who has missed on two legitimate upcoming talents the quality of Eriksson and Turris? I'm sure that we could all name a coach that gave up on a guy who later blossomed under a new coach, but who has spent time with and missed on Turris, Eriksson(, and possibly Mueller, Tyler Johnson), quality talents?

Is Dvorak actually worse and less NHL ready than Tkachuk? Or have we neutered him and made him look bad with misusage? Noone thought Tkachuk was more developed than Dvorak. They were teammates. Dvorak and Marner were team MVPs. Flipped a coin. But two of those teammates are flourishing in top6 roles, and the most NHL ready, least risky one of the three is bouncing around the AHL, bench, and fourth line with spot duty in the top six. Why?

How did Tippett miss on Erickson? And if Turris hadn't of whined he may have been successful here. Same agent as Trouba who has caused problems. I don't get why Turris and Mueller get brought up when there time here wasn't all spent with Tippett. Out of players who have spent there whole time under Tippett there are only 2 top picks who didn't pan out.

Tkachuk is avging only 23 seconds more game than Dvorak, so that example just doesn't make any sense.

Marner has been lighting it up. Dvorak has not. Marner is the more skilled of the two, hence why he was drafted 4th overall. Who knows, come February Marner could hit a wall and get 12 min a game, and Dvorak could be our 1C getting 18min a night. They're different players attempting to directly compare them to fit a narrative of "Tipp ruins players" just doesn't make sense.

 

[_Del_]

We don't need every forward to be Tobias Rieder.

Also, Turris has been very respectable defensively, since like day 1, in Ottawa.

Yep.

Just more revisionism. I mean like flat making things up. He was a 2c for a playoff team immediately. Praised for his two-way play.

 

[_Del_]

How did Tippett miss on Erickson?

Maybe you should read some Tippett and Jackson quotes about Eriksson?

Tkachuk is avging only 23 seconds more game than Dvorak, so that example just doesn't make any sense.

He's getting appropriate usage and has turned those minutes into 15 points which is good for third for scoring on the Coyotes and 5th on Calgary. Their coach doesn't want him to be a fourth liner before he can play in the top six.

Marner has been lighting it up. Dvorak has not.

Would Marner be lighting it up on a Tippett team? I'd bet good money he would not.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Maybe you should read some Tippett and Jackson quotes about Eriksson?

I've never found anything on Jackson, just Tippett saying he wanted him to be a 2 way player and that it would take time. Eriksson went down to the AHL for a bit I believe, then was getting a bunch of ice time in the playoffs with the Stars.

He's getting appropriate usage and has turned those minutes into 15 points which is good for third for scoring on the Coyotes and 5th on Calgary. Their coach doesn't want him to be a fourth liner before he can play in the top six.

35.7% of Tkachuk's starts are in the offensive zone. 54.7% of Dvorak's starts are in the offensive zone, second most out of players currently on the team. And yes Tkachuk has gotten more PP time, but only 3 of his 15 points have come on the PP.

Trying to say Tkachuk has more points than Dvorak because of coaching just doesn't make any sense when you look at stats.

Would Marner be lighting it up on a Tippett team? I'd bet good money he would not.

Why wouldn't he? He's basically repeating what Domi and Duclair did last season before they hit a wall around this time last year. And this year Domi has been #2 in ice time, 2nd in points even while looking unlucky. Yes, Duclair has had a sophomore slump but after being benched he's looking better.

 

[jacobhockey13]

I think that one thing that hurts rookie point production is Dave Tippet's tendency to try to balance out lines (not completely but relatively). This makes it harder for our purely skilled rookies to step in to a top line role and excel. Personally, I think trying to have balanced lines is another thing that hurts us. Stops best players from being out on the ice more.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

I think that one thing that hurts rookie point production is Dave Tippet's tendency to try to balance out lines (not completely but relatively). This makes it harder for our purely skilled rookies to step in to a top line role and excel. Personally, I think trying to have balanced lines is another thing that hurts us. Stops best players from being out on the ice more.

Yeah I think that's true. Doing it that way would make some games more entertaining but I think we would also be in for more blowouts.