Confirmed with Link: Coyotes' Clayton Keller named as Calder Memorial Trophy Finalist

[Flying Puck]

I hope he thanks Step for the Second half of the year. Derek Stepan was exactly what Clayton Keller needed. Chayka needs to find these two guys a legit winger this summer.

 

[Jamieh]

...on a much, much better team than the Coyotes. But your response is actually a great illustration of the traditional lack of context in the NHL cognoscenti, so thanks!

Like I said before Keller had no competition for regular or PP ice time. Do you think he still gets that time all season long if the Coyotes had an alternative? And did you ever consider McAvoy's play aided the Bruin's success and not just the other way around?

 

[Jakey53]

...on a much, much better team than the Coyotes. But your response is actually a great illustration of the traditional lack of context in the NHL cognoscenti, so thanks!

Come on now, you have to give McAvoy a lot of credit. I don't care if it is a first place team or a last place team, if you are playing on the first pairing at his age is damn good.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Like I said before Keller had no competition for regular or PP ice time. Do you think he still gets that time all season long if the Coyotes had an alternative? And did you ever consider McAvoy's play aided the Bruin's success and not just the other way around?

For your first question, yes, I think he does get that time. In fact, I think that Keller was sheltered at first and he played his way into his role. McAvoy, IIRC, had more reps at his position last season because he signed earlier, so he was easier to slot into a big role from the get-go. And of course I think McAvoy's play aided the Bruins' success - I'm certainly not saying that McAvoy sucks or anything. But think about it - if McAvoy had not been as good as he was, would the Bruins have been drastically worse? No. Not with the roster and coaching they have. McAvoy's like a supercharger on a Corvette. Keller was like a nitrous bottle in a Yugo.

My point is that the PTB in the NHL are far too easily skewed in their thinking by immediate circumstance. Their supplementary discipline, for instance, relies HUGELY on whether a player appears injured or not - so a head shot hit's punishment can vary wildly from instance to instance, even though the hits are identical, based on outcomes. It is what it is - but that tendency has also robbed us a couple of times in the past when we've had players worthy of awards (granted, not that often because we haven't often had award-worthy players). There was one year where OEL's performance should have not only put him in the Norris discussion, but should have made him a favorite. He wasn't even on the ballot. Why? BECAUSE THE COYOTES DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. And I think that's ridiculous.

Come on now, you have to give McAvoy a lot of credit. I don't care if it is a first place team or a last place team, if you are playing on the first pairing at his age is damn good.

Again, I really like McAvoy as a player. And he definitely should be in the Calder conversation. But to say that a large group, or even a majority, of voters would pick McAvoy over Keller - in the proper context - is just wrong. I don't think Keller should win (Barzal's season is the clear best-in-class), but what he did this year, slumps and all, on a team as bad as Arizona was is nothing short of stupendous.

 

[Jamieh]

For your first question, yes, I think he does get that time. In fact, I think that Keller was sheltered at first and he played his way into his role. McAvoy, IIRC, had more reps at his position last season because he signed earlier, so he was easier to slot into a big role from the get-go. And of course I think McAvoy's play aided the Bruins' success - I'm certainly not saying that McAvoy sucks or anything. But think about it - if McAvoy had not been as good as he was, would the Bruins have been drastically worse? No. Not with the roster and coaching they have. McAvoy's like a supercharger on a Corvette. Keller was like a nitrous bottle in a Yugo.

My point is that the PTB in the NHL are far too easily skewed in their thinking by immediate circumstance. Their supplementary discipline, for instance, relies HUGELY on whether a player appears injured or not - so a head shot hit's punishment can vary wildly from instance to instance, even though the hits are identical, based on outcomes. It is what it is - but that tendency has also robbed us a couple of times in the past when we've had players worthy of awards (granted, not that often because we haven't often had award-worthy players). There was one year where OEL's performance should have not only put him in the Norris discussion, but should have made him a favorite. He wasn't even on the ballot. Why? BECAUSE THE COYOTES DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. And I think that's ridiculous.



Again, I really like McAvoy as a player. And he definitely should be in the Calder conversation. But to say that a large group, or even a majority, of voters would pick McAvoy over Keller - in the proper context - is just wrong. I don't think Keller should win (Barzal's season is the clear best-in-class), but what he did this year, slumps and all, on a team as bad as Arizona was is nothing short of stupendous.

There have been no seasons where OEL has deserved to be the front runner for the Norris, there is nothing to back up your assertion.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

There have been no seasons where OEL has deserved to be the front runner for the Norris, there is nothing to back up your assertion.

Not even the season where he led the league in defenseman goalscoring?

 

[Jamieh]

Not even the season where he led the league in defenseman goalscoring?

Which one was that? If I missed it apologies.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Which one was that? If I missed it apologies.

It was either '14-15 or '15-16. And he led the goalscoring race for most of the season but I don't think he finished first at the end (I want to say... Byfuglien topped him?). But he had a season where he at least should have been in consideration for the Norris and one of the frontrunners (not the frontrunner), and he wasn't even on the ballot. He wasn't even on a few writers' shortlists. And it was because, again, the Coyotes sucked. The thinking was - and is - that if you have a fantastic season but your team sucks, you're not worthy of an award. Of course, because it's the NHL and consistency is just a word, they make exceptions for guys like McDavid, who clearly wasn't capable of carrying his team to the playoffs this year but, because he's an Oiler and he's a consensus generational talent, will still win whatever he's nominated for.

 

[Jamieh]

It was either '14-15 or '15-16. And he led the goalscoring race for most of the season but I don't think he finished first at the end (I want to say... Byfuglien topped him?). But he had a season where he at least should have been in consideration for the Norris and one of the frontrunners (not the frontrunner), and he wasn't even on the ballot. He wasn't even on a few writers' shortlists. And it was because, again, the Coyotes sucked. The thinking was - and is - that if you have a fantastic season but your team sucks, you're not worthy of an award. Of course, because it's the NHL and consistency is just a word, they make exceptions for guys like McDavid, who clearly wasn't capable of carrying his team to the playoffs this year but, because he's an Oiler and he's a consensus generational talent, will still win whatever he's nominated for.

In 14/15 he finished 23 points behind D points leader. In 15/16 he finished 27 points behind leader. 7th was his highest finish, That's not normally Norris front runner candidate. Unless nhl.com has stats wrong?? Mcdavid is not winning Hart despite being league's best player.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

In 14/15 he finished 23 points behind D points leader. In 15/16 he finished 27 points behind leader. 7th was his highest finish, That's not normally Norris front runner candidate. Unless nhl.com has stats wrong?? Mcdavid is not winning Hart despite being league's best player.

He said goalscoring. On the site I am looking at, for the 14-15 season, OEL led d-men in goals with 23 and Karlsson had 21 and Buff was 3rd with 18. Karlsson won the Norris with 66 points (so he had 45 assists to OEL's 20).

Also if you're using points as your factor... Doughty won that 15-16 season Norris being ranked 10th while OEL was ranked 7th.

 

[Jamieh]

He said goalscoring. On the site I am looking at, for the 14-15 season, OEL led d-men in goals with 23 and Karlsson had 21 and Buff was 3rd with 18. Karlsson won the Norris with 66 points (so he had 45 assists to OEL's 20).

Also if you're using points as your factor... Doughty won that 15-16 season Norris being ranked 10th while OEL was ranked 7th.

Ah didn't notice the distintion, I read points. Apologies.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

He said goalscoring. On the site I am looking at, for the 14-15 season, OEL led d-men in goals with 23 and Karlsson had 21 and Buff was 3rd with 18. Karlsson won the Norris with 66 points (so he had 45 assists to OEL's 20).

Also if you're using points as your factor... Doughty won that 15-16 season Norris being ranked 10th while OEL was ranked 7th.

Yes. And why did Doughty win? His "intangibles" and because his team made the playoffs. Hence my point about the extreme subjectivity in this league.

 

[Jamieh]

Yes. And why did Doughty win? His "intangibles" and because his team made the playoffs. Hence my point about the extreme subjectivity in this league.

Doughy won because of his overall game over an extended period of time. Not that it makes it correct. And of course team success matters, It's a team sport.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

Yes. And why did Doughty win? His "intangibles" and because his team made the playoffs. Hence my point about the extreme subjectivity in this league.

I definitely don't think Doughty deserved it that year. I saw it as a lifetime achievement type of award for him because he hadn't won it before. He has had better seasons that probably could have won him the trophy.. but not that year. I think Karlsson or Burns got robbed that season because of the bias on that one.

 

[RABBIT]

I don't really think it matters to be honest. I think we can agree to disagree. I think at least half of the teams in the league choose Keller over Serg or McAvoy. Some teams see the importance of the number one Dman, others see how well Patrick Kane and Johnny Hockey have fared with the same styles of play and wouldn't bat an eye.

Patrick Kane's first full year:

82 GP

21 G

51 A

72 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Johnny Gaudreau's first full year:

80 GP

24 G

40 A

64 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Clayton Keller's first full year:

82 GP

23 G

42 A

65 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

are we really that far off base to think some teams take the potential offense here? I think not.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

I don't really think it matters to be honest. I think we can agree to disagree. I think at least half of the teams in the league choose Keller over Serg or McAvoy. Some teams see the importance of the number one Dman, others see how well Patrick Kane and Johnny Hockey have fared with the same styles of play and wouldn't bat an eye.

Patrick Kane's first full year:

82 GP

21 G

51 A

72 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Johnny Gaudreau's first full year:

80 GP

24 G

40 A

64 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Clayton Keller's first full year:

82 GP

23 G

42 A

65 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

are we really that far off based to think some teams take the potential offense here? I think not.

I do like seeing Keller's numbers match up well in comparison! Exciting to see how he progresses going forward haha. Just need to make sure to surround him with enough talent and hope he can stay healthy!

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The fact that this terrible team - which hasn't had anyone in contention for an NHL award since Doan won the Messier - has someone in the top three of Calder consideration is nothing short of a miracle and we should be grateful as hell that Clayton Keller plays for us.

 

[Jamieh]

I don't really think it matters to be honest. I think we can agree to disagree. I think at least half of the teams in the league choose Keller over Serg or McAvoy. Some teams see the importance of the number one Dman, others see how well Patrick Kane and Johnny Hockey have fared with the same styles of play and wouldn't bat an eye.

Patrick Kane's first full year:

82 GP

21 G

51 A

72 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Johnny Gaudreau's first full year:

80 GP

24 G

40 A

64 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Clayton Keller's first full year:

82 GP

23 G

42 A

65 PTS

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

are we really that far off base to think some teams take the potential offense here? I think not.

So using your thought process Keller is trending towards Gaudreau. Using that same rational McAvoy is trending towards OEL. would you trade OEL for Gaudreau? I say no. And you are correct, it doesn't really matter.

 

[RABBIT]

So using your thought process Keller is trending towards Gaudreau. Using that same rational McAvoy is trending towards OEL. would you trade OEL for Gaudreau? I say no. And you are correct, it doesn't really matter.

Again, perspective varies. I'm sure there are teams that would pick Johnny Hockey over OEL, and other who would pick OEL over Johnny Hockey. All I'm saying is bias didn't play a factor in my original statement. I tend to carry very grounded, realistic views regarding the Coyotes because I've been disappointed before. I just prefer offense, it seems you may lean toward defense in this scenario. That's all she wrote.

 

[Jamieh]

Again, perspective varies. I'm sure there are teams that would pick Johnny Hockey over OEL, and other who would pick OEL over Johnny Hockey. All I'm saying is bias didn't play a factor in my original statement. I tend to carry very grounded, realistic views regarding the Coyotes because I've been disappointed before. I just prefer offense, it seems you may lean toward defense in this scenario. That's all she wrote.

The GM that would choose Johny Hockey over OEL should fired on the spot. If you have the choice of best player at each position the winger is the last guy you pick.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

There is a drastic difference in teams. Boston is a top team, McAvoy wasn't the best player on his team, probably not even in the top 5 (Rat, Bergeron, Pastrnak, Krejci, Krug), Keller was the best player on our team. I would take Keller over McAvoy and I really like McAvoy, but I think that McAvoy isn't going to hit 60pts as a Dman, which is generally the mark of a top 5 offensive Dman. I think that Keller could be a top 5 player. He scored 65pts and just like someone mentioned above, he left 10-15 pts on the table from non-finishers on his line and Tocchett's misuse during the middle third of the season.

 

[RABBIT]

The GM that would choose Johny Hockey over OEL should fired on the spot. If you have the choice of best player at each position the winger is the last guy you pick.

Again, that's an opinion of yours. Would a team like Nashville take a young, star 80 point winger? Or a mobile, 40-50 point LHD? You're speaking very linear. Which is fine because it's logical, but to throw such a broad blanket over today's ever-changing NHL is a little dated. I am typically one to favor positions, too. You can't win a championship without a good goalie, top defensive pair, and depth up the middle...that said wingers in the modern day game aren't exactly a dime a dozen anymore. If you see a potential 80-90 point forward, I highly doubt all 31 GM's pass on him because defense is the more important position.

 

[Jamieh]

Again, that's an opinion of yours. Would a team like Nashville take a young, star 80 point winger? Or a mobile, 40-50 point LHD? You're speaking very linear. Which is fine because it's logical, but to throw such a broad blanket over today's ever-changing NHL is a little dated. I am typically one to favor positions, too. You can't win a championship without a good goalie, top defensive pair, and depth up the middle...that said wingers in the modern day game aren't exactly a dime a dozen anymore. If you see a potential 80-90 point forward, I highly doubt all 31 GM's pass on him because defense is the more important position.

Who's the 80 point winger? And why do you expect McAvoy to regress? Not so long ago the Preds picked Seth Jones in the draft when they were very strong on D. They traded that to strengthen another position.

 

[RABBIT]

Who's the 80 point winger? And why do you expect McAvoy to regress? Not so long ago the Preds picked Seth Jones in the draft when they were very strong on D. They traded that to strengthen another position.

You said that anybody who chose Johnny Gaudreau over OEL should be fired on the spot. Johnny is the 80 point winger, OEL is the 40-50 point LHD. These two were brought up by both you and myself for projection purposes.

The Preds chose the BPA and were most likely very shocked he was there, but today, I'm willing to bet if he had the choice, Poile chooses Gaudreau over OEL. I'm not arguing that Johnny is more important than OEL (or vice versa.) I'm arguing that I'm willing to bet that not every team takes McAvoy over Keller (or OEL over Gaudreau) because some teams value offense over defense, and some teams have an abundance of defense and could use the offense.

Again we are going to disagree here, which is fine. I'm just refuting your statement claiming that I was being biased when I was stating my preference.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Nitrous bottle on a Yugo? That's Keller? The Flaming Yugo?