Could we pinpoint the beginning of the implosion?

[Nizzle]

I took a trip down memory lane and watched some old and not so old Flyers highlights and lowlights. This comment is from a video called Chris Pronger's eye gets destroyed [HD]: "That play right there has killed the Flyers defense for the past 4 years... "

That comment was made 7 years ago...

While 11 years is certainly enough time to recover from losing your aging number one defenseman and I'm not saying that that play (or suddenly losing Pronger) is the only reason for this mess we have right now, that comment hit me hard.

 

[BiggE]

Journeymen goalies played way over their heads and got them to the final in 2010. This made them think they were much better than they were and they spent the next 3-4 years chasing a Cup when they should have been building their talent pool. The minute Pronger went down for the count, the full rebuild needed to start.

Instead they eventually tried to kinda sorta rebuild while remaining competitive. It’s been an abject failure on every level for a decade.

 

[orangey]

Journeymen goalies played way over their heads and got them to the final in 2010. This made them think they were much better than they were and they spent the next 3-4 years chasing a Cup when they should have been building their talent pool. The minute Pronger went down for the count, the full rebuild needed to start.

Instead they eventually tried to kinda sorta rebuild while remaining competitive. It’s been an abject failure on every level for a decade.

That's the crux of the issue right there. It's basically impossible to build a champion that way unless you luck out on a few players, and they are anything but lucky in their talent selection, lol. The whole team is an assortment of supporting cast members without any star talent to speak of at this point. You aren't going to win in the modern NHL with depth only and their depth isn't even that good. Still though it would probably be adequate if you dropped a couple elite talents on the team but that isn't going to happen. They need to tank it and get it over with. They aren't smart enough to successfully do anything else.

 

[JVR21]

The beginning was a decade ago, but the biggest factor most recently is our top picks and highly touted prospects either being busts or performing below expectations. It usually takes players a few years after they're drafted to establish themselves in the NHL. By the same token, you're highly unlikely to see much improvement out of a player when they're 6+ their draft year (i.e. those "young, high-ceiling defensemen we drafted a few years ago aren't young anymore and history shows they probably won't improve at this point). Our scouting and/or development is some of the worst in the league. You have GOT to hit in the first 2 rounds and develop properly.

2017 - 2OA Nolan Patrick (bust)
2017 - 27OA Morgan Frost (playing below expectations)
2017 - 35OA Isaac Ratcliffe (doesn't look particularly promising)
2016 - 22OA German Rubtsov (bust)
2016 - 36OA Pascal Laberge (bust)
2016 - 48OA Carter Hart (hit)
2016 - 52OA Wade Allison (meh)
2015 - 7OA Ivan Provorov (Major disappointment at this point in his career. Was expected to be a bonafide D1.)
2015 - 24OA Travis Konecny (hot start to career, has fizzled off since then. Not a cornerstone piece on a Cup team.)
2014 - 17OA Travis Sanheim (Disappointment at this point in his career.)
2014 - 48OA NAK (decent development. can't be mad about it)


That's 4 years and 11 players taken in the first 2 rounds. This is the age group that should be thriving right now. It's a disaster.

 

[Gurglesons]

I still get red-assed about this, and my friends give me a hard time about it... but they aren't Flyers fans.
Chi got a franchise-grade difference maker, we got the pigeon.

Heard the scouts wanted McDonagh

 

[Juicy Pop]

Everything is fine, its just that you guys have never really understood what Bryz was saying.

There's a Flyers dynasty in that humongous big universe where Pronger doesn't get injured, where they don't trade JVR and where they don't sign AMac.

There's a version of you that doesn't hate watching Flyers' hockey right now.

 

[Shrike]

Has anybody mentioned Scott Stevens crushing Eric Lindros as the beginning of the implosion yet?

 

[snoop88]

people tend to put too much emphasis on the Pronger injury.

this team/franchise was headed in the wrong direction after the 2011 sweep by the Bruins. even had he stayed healthy, we would've been stuck in the same mediocre hampster wheel with horrible signings like Bryz and the weird semi-rebuild we attempted.

not to mention he was 37, Pronger was a freak, but the wheels fall off for everyone eventually.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The beginning was a decade ago, but the biggest factor most recently is our top picks and highly touted prospects either being busts or performing below expectations. It usually takes players a few years after they're drafted to establish themselves in the NHL. By the same token, you're highly unlikely to see much improvement out of a player when they're 6+ their draft year (i.e. those "young, high-ceiling defensemen we drafted a few years ago aren't young anymore and history shows they probably won't improve at this point). Our scouting and/or development is some of the worst in the league. You have GOT to hit in the first 2 rounds and develop properly.

2017 - 2OA Nolan Patrick (bust)
2017 - 27OA Morgan Frost (playing below expectations)
2017 - 35OA Isaac Ratcliffe (doesn't look particularly promising)
2016 - 22OA German Rubtsov (bust)
2016 - 36OA Pascal Laberge (bust)
2016 - 48OA Carter Hart (hit)
2016 - 52OA Wade Allison (meh)
2015 - 7OA Ivan Provorov (Major disappointment at this point in his career. Was expected to be a bonafide D1.)
2015 - 24OA Travis Konecny (hot start to career, has fizzled off since then. Not a cornerstone piece on a Cup team.)
2014 - 17OA Travis Sanheim (Disappointment at this point in his career.)
2014 - 48OA NAK (decent development. can't be mad about it)


That's 4 years and 11 players taken in the first 2 rounds. This is the age group that should be thriving right now. It's a disaster.

Then add 2018:
2018 - 14OA Joel Farabee (hit)
2018 - 19OA Jay O'Brien (looking like a bust)
2018 - 50OA Adam Ginning (bust, and I wrongly defended it at the time)

So that's 14 players taken in the first 2 rounds (8 firsts, 6 seconds) in a 5-year span from 2014-2018.

And all they have to show for it are Farabee, Hart, Provorov, Konecny, and Sanheim. Theoretically, maybe Allison.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Then add 2018:
2018 - 14OA Joel Farabee (hit)
2018 - 19OA Jay O'Brien (looking like a bust)
2018 - 50OA Adam Ginning (bust, and I wrongly defended it at the time)

So that's 14 players taken in the first 2 rounds (8 firsts, 6 seconds) in a 5-year span from 2014-2018.

And all they have to show for it are Farabee, Hart, Provorov, Konecny, and Sanheim. Theoretically, maybe Allison.

The beginning was a decade ago, but the biggest factor most recently is our top picks and highly touted prospects either being busts or performing below expectations. It usually takes players a few years after they're drafted to establish themselves in the NHL. By the same token, you're highly unlikely to see much improvement out of a player when they're 6+ their draft year (i.e. those "young, high-ceiling defensemen we drafted a few years ago aren't young anymore and history shows they probably won't improve at this point). Our scouting and/or development is some of the worst in the league. You have GOT to hit in the first 2 rounds and develop properly.

2017 - 2OA Nolan Patrick (bust)
2017 - 27OA Morgan Frost (playing below expectations)
2017 - 35OA Isaac Ratcliffe (doesn't look particularly promising)
2016 - 22OA German Rubtsov (bust)
2016 - 36OA Pascal Laberge (bust)
2016 - 48OA Carter Hart (hit)
2016 - 52OA Wade Allison (meh)
2015 - 7OA Ivan Provorov (Major disappointment at this point in his career. Was expected to be a bonafide D1.)
2015 - 24OA Travis Konecny (hot start to career, has fizzled off since then. Not a cornerstone piece on a Cup team.)
2014 - 17OA Travis Sanheim (Disappointment at this point in his career.)
2014 - 48OA NAK (decent development. can't be mad about it)


That's 4 years and 11 players taken in the first 2 rounds. This is the age group that should be thriving right now. It's a disaster.

Patrick was very unlucky

Other than that pick we have done ok with our picks! We dont have had a lot of really high 1st round picks! You cant build a whole team with middle of the pack first round picks! You need to pick high talent and you only can get that at the top of the draft. ALL in ALL our Draft picks are solid. Nothing perfect but it isnt horrible either! We f***ed up with free agents (Bryz, Lecavalier, Hayes, Risto, AMAC) and we also f***ed up with depth signing (VDV, Yandle, Dale Weise, Gustaffson). We have done a very bad job giving our young players chances to develop. Also we traded away BOB who would be at least rock solid here.

Another GEM i found:

4-Mar-14

Andrew MacDonald

New York Islanders

2014 3rd Rounder (Ilya Sorokin), 2015 2nd Rounder (Brandon Carlo), Matt Mangene

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I would say that was a really solid trade! And another example how the flyers f***ed up with bad trades for bad players.

We throw away useful players for bad return or useless players. And we have had signed a lot of bad players for solid to very good assets!

Drafting isnt the main failure in my eyes!


IMO you need to tank to build a really strong team and be a contender for a long period of 5 or 6 years! Its not 100% but its more likely than the 50:50 approach by the flyers!!!

22-Jun-12	2012 2nd Rounder (Anthony Stolarz), 2012 4th Rounder (Taylor Leier) & 2013 4th Rounder (transferred to LA - Justin Auger)	Columbus Blue Jackets	Sergei Bobrovsky
23-Jun-12	Luke Schenn	Toronto Maple Leafs	James van Riemsdyk

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

same as it ever was!

 

[Redpath]

Briere falling off a cliff in 2013, and then getting compliance bought out that summer, created a major hole that we still haven't filled to this day. That 9 years later we've been unable to replace him is inexcusable.

At the start of the 2011-12 season, I recall Pronger slowing down even pre-injury. Sure it hurts to lose a #1D, but that is always going to be difficult to replace.

What we missed out on was capitalizing on the young returns of the Richards/Carter trades. Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, and Couturier should have never been as neglected as they were, even with the inherited cap issues and non-existent prospect pool. Instead we squandered cap space on Lecavalier and MacDonald, lost JVR for nothing, and then decided that those moves were so bad that we needed to go on an indefinite hiatus until a whole new team was built through the draft, despite having a young foundation already in place.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

They haven't been competitive since before the 2012 lockout, except for the outlier of 2019-20.

So that lockout-shortened 2012-13 season marks the start of the dark era in my book. No coincidence they blew the #11 overall pick on Morin following that season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Fully embracing a needlessly destructive and punitive development process that punishes players for not fitting some narrow expectation set by idiots who think like it's 1979 is hard to pinpoint exactly (some point after Hextall was hired), but it's a massive factor. Ensuring you get the least out of everyone you develop is bad.

 

[orangey]

Patrick was very unlucky

Other than that pick we have done ok with our picks! We dont have had a lot of really high 1st round picks! You cant build a whole team with middle of the pack first round picks! You need to pick high talent and you only can get that at the top of the draft. ALL in ALL our Draft picks are solid. Nothing perfect but it isnt horrible either! We f***ed up with free agents (Bryz, Lecavalier, Hayes, Risto, AMAC) and we also f***ed up with depth signing (VDV, Yandle, Dale Weise, Gustaffson). We have done a very bad job giving our young players chances to develop. Also we traded away BOB who would be at least rock solid here.

Another GEM i found:

4-Mar-14

Andrew MacDonald

New York Islanders

2014 3rd Rounder (Ilya Sorokin), 2015 2nd Rounder (Brandon Carlo), Matt Mangene

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I would say that was a really solid trade! And another example how the flyers f***ed up with bad trades for bad players.

We throw away useful players for bad return or useless players. And we have had signed a lot of bad players for solid to very good assets!

Drafting isnt the main failure in my eyes!


IMO you need to tank to build a really strong team and be a contender for a long period of 5 or 6 years! Its not 100% but its more likely than the 50:50 approach by the flyers!!!

22-Jun-12	2012 2nd Rounder (Anthony Stolarz), 2012 4th Rounder (Taylor Leier) & 2013 4th Rounder (transferred to LA - Justin Auger)	Columbus Blue Jackets	Sergei Bobrovsky
23-Jun-12	Luke Schenn	Toronto Maple Leafs	James van Riemsdyk

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

same as it ever was!

There is no one way to build a contender but bottom line is you need star talent from somewhere. Boston and TB are two franchises that missed on a lot of first rounders but lucked out on some other picks so it didn't matter. It can happen but it's rare and probably getting rarer with how scouting has evolved. What's much more likely though is you end up mediocre like the Flyers with some ok supporting cast members and not enough difference makers if you pick low all the time.

It also doesn't help that the Flyers favor high floor 2-way players in the mistaken belief that is the best approach. They don't go for it and draft the highly skilled guys (with other question marks) enough in the top 3 rounds, so it's that much harder for them to hit it out of the park with a Point, Kucherov, Marchand, etc. Those guys would be too small, too Russian or whatever for the Flyers. When they do 'hit' it is usually more of a 2-way do the little things kind of player like Lindblom because that's what they tend to focus on and pick. You can't develop elite skill if it isn't there in the first place. It doesn't work like that with 17 y/o young men. Whatever skill they have is already developed by that age and the development that needs to occur is more physical and just learning how to be a consistent pro.

It's the Flyers outdated approach to drafting and development that is the bigger issue than missing on a few picks. They don't draft enough of the kind of players to give them what they need and then they don't work to encourage and develop it further. Instead they try to beat the skill out of them like Frost. It's like they think they can still go out and sign an elite talent or two but they cant and a team full of ok players plus a declining G is going to end up like the last decade did: mediocre. Look at the GM they have. He wants to win 2-1 hockey games like it's the 90's still but the game and the rules have changed to make that approach far less effective. The Islanders, who are vastly better at defensive trapping hockey than the Flyers, also have more skill and still haven't won shit with that approach! What they are trying for has at it's absolute upside a team that makes the playoffs and still doesn't win shit. What they are doing will never work and is an exercise in futility. It's extremely frustrating.

 

[Rebels57]

The beginning was a decade ago, but the biggest factor most recently is our top picks and highly touted prospects either being busts or performing below expectations. It usually takes players a few years after they're drafted to establish themselves in the NHL. By the same token, you're highly unlikely to see much improvement out of a player when they're 6+ their draft year (i.e. those "young, high-ceiling defensemen we drafted a few years ago aren't young anymore and history shows they probably won't improve at this point). Our scouting and/or development is some of the worst in the league. You have GOT to hit in the first 2 rounds and develop properly.

2017 - 2OA Nolan Patrick (bust)
2017 - 27OA Morgan Frost (playing below expectations)
2017 - 35OA Isaac Ratcliffe (doesn't look particularly promising)
2016 - 22OA German Rubtsov (bust)
2016 - 36OA Pascal Laberge (bust)
2016 - 48OA Carter Hart (hit)
2016 - 52OA Wade Allison (meh)
2015 - 7OA Ivan Provorov (Major disappointment at this point in his career. Was expected to be a bonafide D1.)
2015 - 24OA Travis Konecny (hot start to career, has fizzled off since then. Not a cornerstone piece on a Cup team.)
2014 - 17OA Travis Sanheim (Disappointment at this point in his career.)
2014 - 48OA NAK (decent development. can't be mad about it)


That's 4 years and 11 players taken in the first 2 rounds. This is the age group that should be thriving right now. It's a disaster.

You're leaving out a very important factor..

PLAYER DEVELOPMENT

The Flyers have not only failed to develop the existing skills of these players, they outright ruined/are ruining many of them.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Pronger's injury and trying to replace him with lesser versions rather than rebuilding properly.

 

[BlackandOrange]

I don't have an exact answer, but the farm system has been rotten for quite some time. The MacDonald trade comes to mind.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're leaving out a very important factor..

PLAYER DEVELOPMENT

The Flyers have not only failed to develop the existing skills of these players, they outright ruined/are ruining many of them.

He did mention the development in there

 

[jec6]

Scott Stevens
Bryzgalov
Not getting on dry island
Pronger's Eye
Nashville matching the offer sheet for Weber
2oa pick
Patrick Thoresen's testicle

 

[Rebels57]

He did mention the development in there

I no read good

 

[jec6]

Scott Stevens
Bryzgalov
Not getting on dry island
Pronger's Eye
Nashville matching the offer sheet for Weber
2oa pick
Patrick Thoresen's testicle

Ugh.... I forgot the most important one of all:

Justin Williams for Danny Markov. That's 3 stanley cups right there

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ugh.... I forgot the most important one of all:

Justin Williams for Danny Markov. That's 3 stanley cups right there

Trading that Carlson pick.

Not that we'd have picked him anyway.

 

[Embiid]

Trading that Carlson pick.

Not that we'd have picked him anyway.

I am pretty sure they would have picked him since they needed D and why they went after Eminger since he was already NHL ready and still young. They had already taken Sbisa but were looking to stock up on young D.

I remember Holmgren giving his rationale which I noted upthread as well.

Carlson had a very good showing in a tournament prior to the draft if I recall correctly so he was not some stretch pick.

 

[Embiid]

Ugh.... I forgot the most important one of all:

Justin Williams for Danny Markov. That's 3 stanley cups right there

That was on Hitch.....rode the dude out of town. Had him in his doghouse bc of Hitch's focus on D. Yet Williams was the prototypical player for where the league was going with focus on speed and skill. Used to love seeing his motor...always had his feet moving.

 

[Rodu58]

The Emminger trade, from what I recall, we played the Caps in the playoffs prior to that, and Eminger so impressed Holmgren by getting benched he just had to have him