Could re-alignment mitigate 'othering' of non-traditional markets?

[Fourier]

I don't really have time to add much to the discussion, but I can say that I was in Edmonton for about 10 days in December. In town while I was there were the Leafs, Canucks, Tampa Bay and Columbus.

While the Canucks are the bitter division rivals and Tampa Bay has a star filled line-up, by far the most difficult tickets to come across were for the Leafs. It was like this when I was a season ticket holder in the 80's and it will be like this 20 years from now.

All of the original six teams are big draws in Edmonton, except possibly the Rangers.

There is still a lot of Detroit blood flowing through the veins of many in town because of the deep connections that go back before I was born. There are lots like me who grew up Hab fans, and there are still those that are Bruin fans from the days of Orr and hometown boy Bucyk. But what is also true is that it's just not old geisers my age wearing the visitors uniforms, but young kids as well.

 

[MoreOrr]

Isn't this partially supporting the OP's post. Remember the first expansion, when all the new guys got dumped into one division and the old guys stayed in the other. Sure, St. Louis went to the Cup final, but it wasn't pretty.

My point with regard to Philadelphia is that once upon a time they were new and not appreciated. They built up a winner and an identity, and came knocking on Montreal's door. It was the battles with the established teams that helped them establish themselves--- not being an outcast in a division with little history or ties to the mainstream league (for lack of a better word).


I don't know what point you're trying to make.


From my perspective, no, not really. Especially since they were dumped into that division as an expansion team, going up against a near-dynasty. The Wings help other teams sell out their arenas, but the Wings also have prevented many younger teams from advancing. If winning is required for success, the smaller teams in Detroit's division had to have the harshest hand dealt to them of all.

So would Nashville have done better through a balanced schedule, and an alignment that didn't force as much Detroit on them?

I'd say yes, because they've had a far better product than Toronto, for example, for some years now.

It almost seems as though you or the OP, as you appear to be interpreting the OP, are arguing both sides of the argument. Or just perhaps I'm over-simplying your points.

To anyone who might reply, do you think it's better to be a 'non-established team in a Division among long-established teams, or better to be in a Division in which most of the teams don't have long histories? One could say that if a relatively new team/NHL city is in a Division with well-established teams that the road to 'on-ice' success, at least, will likely be more difficult, but when the team starts doing well then it will receive more respect quicker. Whereas if a new team/city is in a Division with all relatively not well-established teams, on-ice success may come quicker, but will anyone respect the team...ah, the whole Division sucks. And if the fans don't respect the Division then they might likely give the games between 'Divsion rivals' less attention.

Regardless, as you say, Fugu, it's when a newer team really starts making its mark against established teams, as the Flyers did in the 70s, that almost everyone starts taking notice, regardless if the teams are in the same Division or not. The problem is, that if established teams aren't Division rivals then the newer teams generally aren't getting a great number of opportunities to make their mark against those teams. And Playoff meetings only come around every now and then, and only in spring.

That's why I asked about Nashville and Detroit. My question would be, do Nashville fans get particularly up for games against Detroit? I would assume that it is the case, since it seems to be common knowledge that Detroit is a big draw in the West, but I would also think even more so because perhaps at least in the eyes of Predator fans, the Red Wings are that established Division rival that the Predators had for a few Seasons been trying to de-throne, or at least for a few Seasons had been the only Central Division team with the remote possibility of doing so.

Now if Nashville had been in the Southeast Division, would competing against one of the other Southeast Division teams for Division dominance had meant as much to the Predator fans as competing against the Red Wings?

 

[MountainHawk]

I still think the best way of making it fair to all is to have a random draw for conferences each season. Put teams in 6 groups of 5 (or 8 groups of 4) for divisions, then randomly draw the divisions into conferences at the draft for the next season.

 

[MoreOrr]

I still think the best way of making it fair to all is to have a random draw for conferences each season. Put teams in 6 groups of 5 (or 8 groups of 4) for divisions, then randomly draw the divisions into conferences at the draft for the next season.

I had a thought yesterday thinking something more or less along the same lines, though whereas Fugu already deleted part of one of my posts that was drifting into a possible alignment scheme, I suppose I shouldn't go further into this idea here. How about we take it to the other thread.

 

[cbcwpg]

I know I will get shot down here for suggesting this, but has the NHL ever concidered running hockey as two leagues where the winner of each league meet for the finals and there is no cross league play. Might give more to rivalries?

Baseball has 30 teams just like the NHL, and it works there.

 

[Fugu]

I know I will get shot down here for suggesting this, but has the NHL ever concidered running hockey as two leagues where the winner of each league meet for the finals and there is no cross league play. Might give more to rivalries?

Baseball has 30 teams just like the NHL, and it works there.

Both MLB and NFL started as two separate leagues. Their fans are accepting of this type of setup. Would the old NHL be in one league and the second be the 15 newest members? It might still be lopside regionally because the origins of the league were generally concentrated in the NE quadrant.

I personally hate the idea of having two leagues. If you end up with all the stars like Sid or AO in one league, the other fans never get to see them.

 

[Killion]

I agree with the sentiment, however weren't our Original Six teams the ones who caused it all? Once upon a time, there were only six teams. They controlled their destinies. This didn't happen "to them" but due to their own desires to grow the league.

Not exactly voluntarily. Their hands were forced by the likes of Cleveland & other centers who for years had been denied entry. It was really only the threats of anti-trust that opened the gates, that and the Norris's interests in St. Louis & elsewhere that sweetened the pot some. 3 of the 6 went kicking & screaming into the night.

Remember the first expansion, when all the new guys got dumped into one division and the old guys stayed in the other? Sure, St. Louis went to the Cup final, but it wasn't pretty.

I sure do (remember the 67 expansion), and Ive long been a proponent to having the Original 6 all playing in the same Division. Good job the Blues were able to draft Hall & talk Plante out of retirement & had them both in 68. Wouldve been a blowout otherwise. The Original 6 did a masterful job to insure their newly minted partners enjoyed on-ice ineptitude & in some cases (St. Louis in particular) onerous financial conditions for years to come. The other 5 teams in the newly created division were pretty much of AHL quality, Philly eventually punching their way to disrespectability. Membership does not carry much in the way of privilege, plenty in way of punishment.

 

[MoreOrr]

I sure do, and Ive long been a proponent in having the Original 6 all playing in the same Division. Good job the Blues were able to draft Hall & talk Plante out of retirement in 68 because t.he Original 6 did a masterful job in insuring their newly minted partners enjoyed on-ice ineptitude & in some cases (St. Louis in particular) onerous financial conditions for years to come. Membership does not carry much in the way of privilege, plenty in way of punishment.

No Way! There are a few very bad ideas for an altered alignment structure, and to have all of the O-6 in the same Division (regardless of the fact that there are 6 to be put in what are currently 5-team Divisions) would be one bad idea. From all that we're reading here, there seems to be enough evidence to point to the 'fact' that there is still a fan attraction to long-established teams, so everywhere should have, if impractical, a piece of or regular access to that hockey heritage.

The O-6 is all there is as a basis for what in the NFL and MLB were two founding Leagues, so therefore that O-6 should at minimum be divided between the two Conferences so that both have a share for the hockey heritage.

Another really bad idea is a strictly MLB-type alignment. Nothing good to be gained by it, zero practicality, and significant extra expense.

 

[Killion]

No Way!

Way! Followed by R E L E G A T I O N & C O N T R A C T I O N

 

[MoreOrr]

Way! Followed by R E L E G A T I O N & C O N T R A C T I O N

Ok, those too!

 

[Killion]

Ok, those too!

and the banning of;

players names on sweaters
rink board & on-ice advertising
composite or graphite sticks
the trapezoid crease

for starters....

 

[MoreOrr]

and the banning of;

players names on sweaters
rink board & on-ice advertising
composite or graphite sticks
the trapezoid crease

for starters....

But let's keep it alignment options or options that can effect alignment, Ok. Since that is what the thread is about.

 

[selkie]

That's why I asked about Nashville and Detroit. My question would be, do Nashville fans get particularly up for games against Detroit? I would assume that it is the case, since it seems to be common knowledge that Detroit is a big draw in the West,

The Nashville through Bowling Green KY area actually has a fair number of Michigan natives there, and one of the big pushes the team made early on was to try to take Red Wings fans who had ended up in the area and make them Preds fans, figuring they were low hanging fruit and all. (Unlike the Canadians in LA, most of the Michiganders ended up in Tennessee because the jobs were there, not because they hated hockey)

Seems like it's been part of the equation for relative success there as well as building the native fan base in a smallish by US standards market.

 

[hockey diva]

The Nashville through Bowling Green KY area actually has a fair number of Michigan natives there, and one of the big pushes the team made early on was to try to take Red Wings fans who had ended up in the area and make them Preds fans, figuring they were low hanging fruit and all. (Unlike the Canadians in LA, most of the Michiganders ended up in Tennessee because the jobs were there, not because they hated hockey).

Bowling Green down to Spring Hill actually. That demographic has changed over the years especially now that Saturn is no more. There are still a number of PredWing fans as we call them around here but not nearly the number there used to be.

I have occasionally lamented that we didn't get put in the SE division. Most people here are into SEC football and are obviously more familiar with Southern cities and states. Atlanta, Carolina and the Florida teams would have been more "natural" rivals for us than who we have in the Central. But then again, having teams like Detroit and now Chicago do make your GM work harder to improve.

We have a deep hatred of Detroit. We are developing a fierce though one sided rivalry with Columbus. Not legendary stuff but you gotta start somewhere.

 

[Fourier]

Both MLB and NFL started as two separate leagues. Their fans are accepting of this type of setup. Would the old NHL be in one league and the second be the 15 newest members? It might still be lopside regionally because the origins of the league were generally concentrated in the NE quadrant.

I personally hate the idea of having two leagues. If you end up with all the stars like Sid or AO in one league, the other fans never get to see them.

But in practices, this is almost how it is now. The current NHL schedule is not that much different than the way MLB operates. Of course there are no rule changes when you play outside of your conference, but as far as the relative mixing of teams it is similar.

 

[Fugu]

But in practices, this is almost how it is now. The current NHL schedule is not that much different than the way MLB operates. Of course there are no rule changes when you play outside of your conference, but as far as the relative mixing of teams it is similar.

And a big reason why some of us hate the scheduling and how the NHL is ruining hockey.

 

[Killion]

And a big reason why some of us hate the scheduling and how the NHL is ruining hockey.

So everythings not OK with the league Fugu?. Your not buying Gary Bettmans' canvases' of Rockwellian Existentialism; of. midwestern daydreams & ideals to the nth' degree?. Is the league not a living interpretation of Lord Baden Powell's very tenets, all served up like dinner at, oh I dunno, The Chop House?...

 

[Fugu]

So everythings not OK with the league Fugu?. Your not buying Gary Bettmans' canvases' of Rockwellian Existentialism; of. midwestern daydreams & ideals to the nth' degree?. Is the league not a living interpretation of Lord Baden Powell's very tenets, all served up like dinner at, oh I dunno, The Chop House?...

I don't think anyone else here will know what you're talking about, but yup, that's about how I see it. The filet or a NY strip today? Hmmm. Tough choices.