Could re-alignment mitigate 'othering' of non-traditional markets?

Dado

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Seems as though you're saying that you can only hate a team based on the number of fans it has.

Not "only" - but it's an important contributing factor. Large, passionate fanbases need the same back, otherwise emotion seeps out of the event.

You can see the same thing on HF - a handful of fanbases have reputations as being Everywhere & Loud - they need equally powerful fanbases to keep the juices flowing at such a high level.
 

Buck Aki Berg

Done with this place
Sep 17, 2008
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Is road attendance the real problem a lot of the southern teams are facing, though? It seems to me that their home numbers are far more concerning. Is the presence of an Original Six team, for example, enough to draw fans out of their apathy?

Home attendance is certainly alarming for some teams, but road attendance is a problem for the owners who can't fill their arena when these teams visit. Looking at the Senators schedule for example, when the Kings came to town they were one of the top teams in the league, yet the game was "value" priced (the lowest of the four possible price points). Dallas - currently tops in the Pacific division - was also a "value game".

There is nothing "most unsportsmanlike" about wanting meaningful rivalries for your team.

Fair enough, but for every fan that wants these teams to move for the sake of meaningful rivalries, there are ten that play the x-city-does/doesn't-deserve-hockey card. As an example, many people who are cheerleading for the Coyotes or Thrashers or whoever to move north will not become fans of these teams, except for "Winnipeg is playing Dallas so I'll cheer for Winnipeg because Winnipeg is in Canada and Dallas isn't".

EDIT: I brought Phoenix and Atlanta into the equation because they're poignant examples - hopefully that won't open the floodgates of Winnipeg/Quebec vs. Phoenix/Atlanta vitriol :nod:
 

Dado

Guest
As an example, many people who are cheerleading for the Coyotes or Thrashers or whoever to move north will not become fans of these teams...

So? Seriously, what difference does it make?

Personally, I will not become a fan of the Jets, but I absolutely do welcome the return of a rivalry with them.
 

MoreOrr

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I'm reading in this thread a lot of the attitude, 'you don't have (in w, x southern city) what we have (in y, z Canadian city), you will never have what we have, so who gives a **** about your NHL city (other than Bettman, not yet mentioned).'

Who cares what make this or that southern/non-traditional NHL market more successful, those cities shouldn't even be part of the League anyway.

So you know, speaking to the "fans" about re-alignment and how this or that re-alignment structure might be more beneficial for the League as a whole, really is almost pointless, because too many fans only care really about their team and its rivalries, or the national context of more Canadian teams.

I'm not innocent of this, not completely, because I'm also not a supporter of having teams in certain markets, although my list is shorter than most and I don't come here arguing that those teams should be moved. As long as they exist, they exist, and as I see it we should consider that as the reality and then consider what might be best for the League, as a whole, within that reality.
 

mouser

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Jul 13, 2006
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I think far too much importance is given to the road team in these attendance numbers. Montreal has the biggest arena in the league. Montreal is almost always a sellout. Therefore, your team's "road attendance" is somewhat proportional to the number of road games played in Montreal.

Montreal never plays a road game in Montreal, therefore their total potential road attendance is automatically lower than other teams.

I think you'll find 90% + of paying attendance is actually there for the home team, the road team is largely irrelevant.

That's why Road Attendance figures are usually cited in % of arena capacity instead of bodies in seats.
 

HabsByTheBay

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Dec 3, 2010
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No, I really wouldn't. I've never gotten used to the Leafs moving to the East because of all the crap games with Florida, Tampa, Washington, New Jersey, etc. Even with the rivalry the Leafs had going with the Devils a few years back, I still couldn't care less about watching a Leafs-Devils game. OTOH, I'll always do whatever I can to make sure I see the Leafs in Calgary, Edmonton, or Vancouver, despite never having any sort of serious rivalry with those clubs.

It's not just that these teams are southern, either, like with my NJ example. It's that they're generally such awful franchises with zero fan support. How can I care about watching the Leafs play Florida, for instance, when people in Florida couldn't give a damn? Turn a game on down there and see 7,000 people in the stands? Doesn't do much to make me feel like it's a big game I need to watch.

Also, as much as people here are saying the Leafs always sell out at home no matter what? True, but the games against Tampa, Florida, etc. are always the crap games that STH holders sell off or give away. Start loading the schedule with more of those games, you are going to piss some of those people off.
Seriously, Jersey is an awful franchise? So what are the Leafs then?

It sounds to me like you only care about O6 teams and Canadian teams. That doesn't make you a discerning NHL fan, it makes you a casual one.
 

Buck Aki Berg

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Sep 17, 2008
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So? Seriously, what difference does it make?

The difference it makes is that the holier-than-thou attitude that some fans (generally in traditional markets) take against certain teams (generally non-traditional markets) creates hostility and infighting among fans of the game - the north-vs.-south nonsense you see here on HF extends into the real world as well - and makes these games difficult to sell. Even when southern teams perform well, they're a tough sell in a lot of the northern markets, simply because they're dismissed as a game not worth going to, and ticket prices need to be slashed dramatically to create enough demand to fill the barn when they come to town.
 

Fidel Astro

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I don't think you can just force rivalries to exist. If you have two teams that have continually clashed in the same division for years, moving one of them and dumping it somewhere else is not going to mean they'll instantly start a rivalry with someone new. Fans probably just aren't going to be interested.

While I really dislike the way all of the divisions were renamed (I miss the Campbell and Wales conferences, plus all of the divisions from back in the day), I think doing it geographically makes a lot of sense. Teams, in my opinion, are far more likely to build solid rivalries with nearby opponents (proximity makes it more likely for the opposing team's fans to attend) than someone the league forced them up against.

So what if this causes a problem with the southern teams? The southern teams are a problem. If having them segregated into a regional division draws further attention to their woes, great. How is that a problem? The more attention paid to the struggles these teams are having means it's more likely they will get resolved, one way or another.

Either the teams and their fans are going to get their **** together and start improving in terms of attendance, or the teams will be relocated somewhere attendance is not a problem. Both are good solutions. Burying struggling southern teams in divisions with a bunch of popular traditional teams won't solve anything. It'll just hide the problem temporarily.
 

Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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From my standpoint, I'd say that more (and smaller) divisions would make the most sense along with a divisional playoff format.

Now, if that means stacking the playoff schedule so that the only two playoff games in a given night are Atlanta/Tampa and then Phoenix/Anaheim, so be it.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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But there is this point, which follows directly from what you said about Leafs fans... If Toronto would have strong attendance no matter what teams were part of its Division, then why not make the Divisions more attractive for the teams in which it could matter?

Because that would invariably mean that markets like Toronto will get the shaft as to benefit other teams where the difference would matter.
 

MoreOrr

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Because that would invariably mean that markets like Toronto will get the shaft as to benefit other teams where the difference would matter.

One could say that those other teams are already getting the shaft because they don't have any of the prime Divisional matchups.
 

Kebekoi

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Oct 3, 2006
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From my standpoint, I'd say that more (and smaller) divisions would make the most sense along with a divisional playoff format.

Now, if that means stacking the playoff schedule so that the only two playoff games in a given night are Atlanta/Tampa and then Phoenix/Anaheim, so be it.

So if you go with 8 divs of 4, with divisional playoffs 2/4 team in each mini division would be out?

Example :
Detroit-Chicago-Minnesota-Columbus (just making this out)

If DET, CHI and MIN are 1-2-3 in the West out of 16, why would the Wild be out of the playoffs?

4 divisions of 8 would lessen the problem, IMO.
 

selkie

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Feb 9, 2009
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I've put this forward a few times. It is unfair to the farther-flung teams as they may end up traveling, in terms of miles, 2-3x as much as the NE quadrant. Since they all have to have someone to play, is it unreasonable to make travel (at least the jet fuel and air charter type things) a set but shared cost item, like the officiating and discipline items?

There's also the playoff time zone issue in the West. You don't even get a half hour Newfoundland shift among the Eastern teams. But to get to the Cup final from the Western, you can get a set up where Detroit (and in theory Columbus) has to play three straight series three time zones away. Or a Pacific team having two EST (3 time zones) and one CST (2 time zones) away.

And it's bad enough to be an EST fan when a California series gets into the second overtime, gotta be worse for the players and their recovery as they go back and forth.
 

DeathToAllButMetal

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May 13, 2010
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Seriously, Jersey is an awful franchise? So what are the Leafs then?

It sounds to me like you only care about O6 teams and Canadian teams. That doesn't make you a discerning NHL fan, it makes you a casual one.

Uh, no. It makes me a longtime, hardcore hockey fan who HATES what the New NHL has done to the overall content and quality of the league thanks to runaway, misguided expansion.

Jersey is an awful, unnecessary franchise. The NYC area does not need three freaking teams, for starters, as there are enough fans in the region for one. Does anybody really give a damn about the Devils aside from a few thousand hardcore types? The attendance is always flaky unless the team is winning big time, or the Rangers are in, and even then it's always a life-and-death struggle to make money. If not for the ownership, the Devils would be prime targets for relocation like their neighbor on Long Island.
 

DeathToAllButMetal

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May 13, 2010
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The difference being, in Toronto there is enough market pressure to keep those pissed-off people buying tickets. In Miami, there's not. People just say "screw it, I'll buy tickets for only the handful of games I actually want".

So what? Why does that mean Toronto fans should be force-fed crap games with Florida and Atlanta? Why should Toronto have to basically prop up these crap teams that by all sane measurements of fan bases should not exist?

Also, it's not like Toronto is the golden goose. In the later Ballard years into the early Fletcher era, sellouts were NOT automatic. You could get good tickets in the Reds at MLG walking up for even divisional games with teams like Chicago and Detroit. There is no guarantee that this would not happen again, especially if the chaos and losing of the past few years continue.
 

DeathToAllButMetal

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Seems as though you're saying that you can only hate a team based on the number of fans it has.

That's a part of it. There's a certain cachet that teams bring with them. Original Six clubs. Younger teams with real history like LA, the Oilers, and Dallas. But what do you get with, say, Columbus? Or Carolina? Or Florida? Not much history, not much in the way of image, not much drama, not much when it comes to long-standing rivalries.

That's what happens when you shoehorn too many new teams into a league too quickly. The NHL added almost 10 teams in very short order to blitz into apparently underserved US markets as a result of the Gretzky popularity blip in the early and mid-90s. Whoops. That turned out to be a mirage and interest in the NHL in the US soon subsided. So the league has been left stuck with a bunch of teams founded to serve what turned out to be a lost cause.
 

MoreOrr

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That's what happens when you shoehorn too many new teams into a league too quickly. The NHL added almost 10 teams in very short order to blitz into apparently underserved US markets as a result of the Gretzky popularity blip in the early and mid-90s. Whoops. That turned out to be a mirage and interest in the NHL in the US soon subsided. So the league has been left stuck with a bunch of teams founded to serve what turned out to be a lost cause.

The NHL grew at about an equal pace as the NBA. Not to say that that's a good or bad comparison, but...

I think the advantage that the NHL has had is that a lot more of those relatively new teams went on to win Championships.

Really, I think we just need to give most of these relatively new franchises time to establish their own place in NHL history. It's impossible for any of the 24 non-original six teams to have anything similar to the history of the original six, there's such a huge gap in the amount of time that all of those teams have been in the League in comparison.
 

selkie

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That's a part of it. There's a certain cachet that teams bring with them. Original Six clubs. Younger teams with real history like LA, the Oilers, and Dallas. But what do you get with, say, Columbus? Or Carolina? Or Florida? Not much history, not much in the way of image, not much drama, not much when it comes to long-standing rivalries.

The flip side- the Nordiques, who struggled until just before they went south of the border to Denver, where the Avs seem to have developed far more cachet/rivalry potential than the Nords ever did playing second fiddle to Montreal.
 

Space Herpe

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Aug 29, 2008
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What I got from reading the OP is this:
(And its something that has appeared on the main board every so often)

A Northern Conference and a Southern Conference.
Two or three divisions per conference.


This will also help with the travel equity situation.
Boston will have to go to Vancouver just as many times as Detroit and the Flames will visit Philly just as many times as the Blackhawks...

And The Ducks will go to Tampa just as many times as the Thrashers, and the Stars will go to Phoenix just as many times as the Hurricanes...


Then again, that's what I got from reading the OP...maybe I missed the point.
 

Kebekoi

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Oct 3, 2006
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The flip side- the Nordiques, who struggled until just before they went south of the border to Denver, where the Avs seem to have developed far more cachet/rivalry potential than the Nords ever did playing second fiddle to Montreal.

Cachet and rivalry potential?

How come you can have rivalry potential when it was the best rivalry with Montreal?


 

Fugu

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Open again. Todd Gill was getting away with some things that need to be challenged. :)

One could say that those other teams are already getting the shaft because they don't have any of the prime Divisional matchups.

Yes, Detroit comes to mind while Boston, Montreal and the Leafs sit cozily in the most secure place. The two economic juggernauts of the NHL in one division? Hmmm.

Uh, no. It makes me a longtime, hardcore hockey fan who HATES what the New NHL has done to the overall content and quality of the league thanks to runaway, misguided expansion.

I agree with the sentiment, however weren't our Original Six teams the ones who caused it all? Once upon a time, there were only six teams. They controlled their destinies. This didn't happen "to them" but due to their own desires to grow the league.

Jersey is an awful, unnecessary franchise. The NYC area does not need three freaking teams, for starters, as there are enough fans in the region for one. Does anybody really give a damn about the Devils aside from a few thousand hardcore types? The attendance is always flaky unless the team is winning big time, or the Rangers are in, and even then it's always a life-and-death struggle to make money. If not for the ownership, the Devils would be prime targets for relocation like their neighbor on Long Island.

Why aren't there more teams in the world's largest hockey market? You don't have to look very far in fact in attributing some of the blame for the league's choices in expanding -- the why and the where.

If this is truly how you feel, why blame the result of the expansions and bad business plans on the fans in the newer market, yet never look at the root behind these things. Toronto, the franchise, has had far more to say about these matters than any fan you choose to blame. Far more.

So what? Why does that mean Toronto fans should be force-fed crap games with Florida and Atlanta? Why should Toronto have to basically prop up these crap teams that by all sane measurements of fan bases should not exist?

As a Detroit fan, my question is why do four of my fellow Original Six teams get away with being cozy while Detroit is forced to shoulder a disproportionate cost in "propping up" or helping the expansion take hold. Wrong time zone, greater travel costs, loss of its traditional rivals (like the Leafs), etc.

You think we don't miss seeing teams we grew up watching visit more often? The buzz at the Joe last month when the Habs visited was incredible. You could tell the fans were having a BLAST. There was singing and fans poking fun at each other, but all proclaiming they had a great time.

So if the expansion is water under the bridge and you can't set the clock back type of thing--- share the pain with us. Instead, you grouse about the expansion and that you don't want to be unfairly burdened, but don't allot any of the blame to local ownership. Furthermore, you don't recognize the sacrifice fellow fans [and teams] in O-6 markets are asked to make.

That's a part of it. There's a certain cachet that teams bring with them. Original Six clubs. Younger teams with real history like LA, the Oilers, and Dallas. But what do you get with, say, Columbus? Or Carolina? Or Florida? Not much history, not much in the way of image, not much drama, not much when it comes to long-standing rivalries.

There was a time when there were only six. Did LA or Dallas or Philly have that cachet when they were first added?

If we're honest, we'll recognize that what helped a team like Philly or LA take hold was time and especially in Philly's case, challenging the status quo of the Original Six. Not sure if you remember the Bobby Clarke days, but guess who they were trying to unseat?


That's what happens when you shoehorn too many new teams into a league too quickly. The NHL added almost 10 teams in very short order to blitz into apparently underserved US markets as a result of the Gretzky popularity blip in the early and mid-90s. Whoops. That turned out to be a mirage and interest in the NHL in the US soon subsided. So the league has been left stuck with a bunch of teams founded to serve what turned out to be a lost cause.

This may be true to a certain extent, in that overexpansion weakens everyone, even teams that might be bolstered and 'salvageable' in the so-called failing markets were it not for talent levels and the level of overall competition for said talent.

My point though in challenging your position is that I feel your blame is misdirected, and as I said above, much closer to home than you may wish to acknowledge.
 

MoreOrr

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Yes, Detroit comes to mind while Boston, Montreal and the Leafs sit cozily in the most secure place. The two economic juggernauts of the NHL in one division? Hmmm.

As a Detroit fan, my question is why do four of my fellow Original Six teams get away with being cozy while Detroit is forced to shoulder a disproportionate cost in "propping up" or helping the expansion take hold. Wrong time zone, greater travel costs, loss of its traditional rivals (like the Leafs), etc.

Need to challenge you on a couple points here, though I hate to because basically we're arguing on the same side.

One, Detroit may not have the blessing of a Divisional grouping such as Boston, Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto, but I don't think the Red Wings can claim that they're poorly Divisionally aligned. You've got Chicago which, if we're only talking O-6, is a better arrangement than the Rangers. The Blue Jackets may not be respected, but they are still the closest geographical opponent that Detroit could have. Then there's Nashville, which at least from an onloolers perspective appears to have developed a fair rivalry with the Red Wings. And lastly, the Blues with which there has been almost 30 years of Divisional 'rivalry'. There are several other teams, in a couple of other Divisions, which might only wish to have a Divisional makeup such as what Detroit has. Now, as for Conference alignment, that's another story.

There was a time when there were only six. Did LA or Dallas or Philly have that cachet when they were first added?

If we're honest, we'll recognize that what helped a team like Philly or LA take hold was time and especially in Philly's case, challenging the status quo of the Original Six. Not sure if you remember the Bobby Clarke days, but guess who they were trying to unseat?

Only partly a valid point...
Since the 67 Expansion, it wasn't until the 74-75 Season that the Penguins and the Kings got put in a Division with Montreal and Detroit, and the Flyers in a Division with the Rangers. All those 67 Expansion teams had seven Seasons where they were stuck with just Chicago in their Division.

And as for Dallas, well yes, they started off with Toronto, Detroit, Chicago, and the then quite long-established St. Louis in their Division. That was a fairly historic Division at the time.


Something more: Here's a question , do you think it has served the Predators franchise well to have been in a Division with the Red Wings?
 
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KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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I'm an out-spoken advocate of blowing up geographic divisions.

The problem isn't exactly the geography, but the timeline of those teams brought into the league.

Its quite simple really:
Those of us over the age of 30, remember a smaller league with fierce rivalries. Our interest in seeing our established teams playing teams that didn't exist in 1988 is much lower than those who did.

As an Islanders fan, we play 20 games vs the Southeast division. I'm interested in four: The Capitals. Because I still hate them from Dale Hunter cheap-shotting Pierre Turgeon.

Our current alignment has segregated the new teams that lack history.

When you add a person to a group of 20, within a bit of time, they become part of the group.
When you add 10 people to a group of 20, they change the group; and the 10 new people will hang out and the 20 pre-existing members will hang out.

That's kind of what we have in the NHL now. You've got a division of four new guys and Washington. And another group with four new guys and LA.

I advocate an MLB-style alignment for hockey for two reasons:
#1 - the NHL has all its marquee games lumped together. Your two biggest draws are regional rivals and division opponents.
The largest crowds for the Islanders are the Rangers, Devils, Flyers and Penguins.
The largest crowds for Mets games are: Philly, Atlanta and the Yankees.

MLB's schedule isn't ideal because interleague play is relatively taboo aside from your regional rival. The NHL doesn't have that problem.
You could easily increase the number of marquee games in the NHL by playing a MLB-style alignment/schedule format (play your conference, and other league's corresponding division and ignore the other divisions of the opposite conference).

#2 - You CAN create rivalries. Look no further than Mets/Braves in baseball and Colorado/Detroit in hockey. The Mets/Braves had ZERO rivalry until 1994, when MLB re-aligned. The Mets could beat ATL for three years while they fought for (and failed to get) the wild card. Then when the Mets were good in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001... they suddenly couldn't beat the Braves anymore. Throw in John Rocker's comments and you had an awesome rivalry.

Colorado/Detroit... one dirty hit and playoff competition turned two teams two time zones apart into a must see rivalry.

Split up the Southeast, and you can still have FLA/TB and NYR/NYI. But now you add FLA/NYR or TB/NYR as division rivals. Increase interest in those games.

Even when there's NOTHING at stake in the standings; local rivalries like EDM-CAL, MON-TOR, MON-OTT, NYR-NYI, LA-ANA, FLA-TB, BUF-TOR, those are going to be intense rivalries... like the Yankees-Mets; Angels-Dodgers, Cubs-White Sox, Rays-Marlins, Indians-Reds... because it's for the championship of each other.
 

MoreOrr

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Its quite simple really:
Those of us over the age of 30, remember a smaller league with fierce rivalries. Our interest in seeing our established teams playing teams that didn't exist in 1988 is much lower than those who did.

As an Islanders fan, we play 20 games vs the Southeast division. I'm interested in four: The Capitals. Because I still hate them from Dale Hunter cheap-shotting Pierre Turgeon.

Our current alignment has segregated the new teams that lack history.

When you add a person to a group of 20, within a bit of time, they become part of the group.
When you add 10 people to a group of 20, they change the group; and the 10 new people will hang out and the 20 pre-existing members will hang out.

Nice analogy, though I'm not sure it accurately applies to the perspective on Divisions in the NHL, it does offer a way of looking at it.

I advocate an MLB-style alignment for hockey for two reasons:
#1 - the NHL has all its marquee games lumped together. Your two biggest draws are regional rivals and division opponents.
The largest crowds for the Islanders are the Rangers, Devils, Flyers and Penguins.
The largest crowds for Mets games are: Philly, Atlanta and the Yankees.

I came to a firm conclusion while back that I simply can't agree that purely MLB-style alignment would be good. A drastically unnecessary, impractical option.

Split up the Southeast, and you can still have FLA/TB and NYR/NYI. But now you add FLA/NYR or TB/NYR as division rivals. Increase interest in those games.

Even when there's NOTHING at stake in the standings; local rivalries like EDM-CAL, MON-TOR, MON-OTT, NYR-NYI, LA-ANA, FLA-TB, BUF-TOR, those are going to be intense rivalries... like the Yankees-Mets; Angels-Dodgers, Cubs-White Sox, Rays-Marlins, Indians-Reds... because it's for the championship of each other.

Yet, what you said here seems not to be a purely MLB-style alignment concept. It seems that you're suggesting that certain key 'geographical pairings' be keep together, but to intermix those pairings so as to create a broader alignment dynamic. If that's the case, then you may have something worth considering. Mod: deleted.
 
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Fugu

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Need to challenge you on a couple points here, though I hate to because basically we're arguing on the same side.

One, Detroit may not have the blessing of a Divisional grouping such as Boston, Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto, but I don't think the Red Wings can claim that they're poorly Divisionally aligned. You've got Chicago which, if we're only talking O-6, is a better arrangement than the Rangers. The Blue Jackets may not be respected, but they are still the closest geographical opponent that Detroit could have. Then there's Nashville, which at least from an onloolers perspective appears to have developed a fair rivalry with the Red Wings. And lastly, the Blues with which there has been almost 30 years of Divisional 'rivalry'. There are several other teams, in a couple of other Divisions, which might only wish to have a Divisional makeup such as what Detroit has. Now, as for Conference alignment, that's another story.

Compared to the biggest and strongest Original Six teams, then yes, I do feel that Detroit perhaps moreso than Chicago is unfairly aligned. It's not your perception of who the rivals are to the Wings, but to their fans. They do not view Columbus, Nashville or even St. Louis as a huge rival. Nothing like the Leafs were once upon a time, or even the familiarity of hosting Montreal, Boston and Philly on a routine basis. Current day "rivals" are playoff opponents like the Ducks, Sharks, formerly Dallas and STL but to a lesser extent than the fierce rivalry with Colorado that started in the 90's.

It had nothing to do with geography.

If it takes a very long time to develop fans and a market, that means a couple of decades of experience, then what Detroit fans experienced in their formative years as fans-- going back 20-30 yrs or longer -- means several of their rivals have been removed several times over. The hottest tickets in Detroit are for the visits from Eastern teams like Montreal, Boston, Toronto, Philly, and NYR. Oddly, the Canadian teams are a big draw too, but that's probably driven by the many Cdns here and just across the border, plus the weird fact that Michigan hockey fans identify with Canada quite a bit. Many who can receive the CBC will preferentially tune in there for games over a US broadcast option.


Only partly a valid point...
Since the 67 Expansion, it wasn't until the 74-75 Season that the Penguins and the Kings got put in a Division with Montreal and Detroit, and the Flyers in a Division with the Rangers. All those 67 Expansion teams had seven Seasons where they were stuck with just Chicago in their Division.

Isn't this partially supporting the OP's post. Remember the first expansion, when all the new guys got dumped into one division and the old guys stayed in the other. Sure, St. Louis went to the Cup final, but it wasn't pretty.

My point with regard to Philadelphia is that once upon a time they were new and not appreciated. They built up a winner and an identity, and came knocking on Montreal's door. It was the battles with the established teams that helped them establish themselves--- not being an outcast in a division with little history or ties to the mainstream league (for lack of a better word).


And as for Dallas, well yes, they started off with Toronto, Detroit, Chicago, and the then quite long-established St. Louis in their Division. That was a fairly historic Division at the time.

I don't know what point you're trying to make.


Something more: Here's a question , do you think it has served the Predators franchise well to have been in a Division with the Red Wings?

From my perspective, no, not really. Especially since they were dumped into that division as an expansion team, going up against a near-dynasty. The Wings help other teams sell out their arenas, but the Wings also have prevented many younger teams from advancing. If winning is required for success, the smaller teams in Detroit's division had to have the harshest hand dealt to them of all.

So would Nashville have done better through a balanced schedule, and an alignment that didn't force as much Detroit on them?

I'd say yes, because they've had a far better product than Toronto, for example, for some years now.
 

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