Could a Maritime NHL team succeed?

[Buck Aki Berg]

Wikipedia tells me the smallest market in the league is Buffalo, which ranks #50 on a list of United States MSAs. If Halifax was in the US, they would be #136, sandwiched between the teeming metropoli of Anchorage and Montgomery.

 

[Brodie]

if Halifax had gotten a team back in the day, it would have moved by now.

I'm all for more Canadian teams, but we need to restrict it to the markets that can support them: Winnipeg, Southern Ontario and Quebec City.

 

[MoreOrr]

Neither Halifax nor Moncton has what it takes to support an NHL team. However, one of those cities should be the Saskatchewan of the east in the CFL. I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

 

[GreatCanadian]

Neither Halifax nor Moncton has what it takes to support an NHL team. However, one of those cities should be the Saskatchewan of the east in the CFL. I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

Working on it

 

[Rob]

An NHL team in the Maritimes? No.

The only places in Canada that can support additional NHL teams currently are Winnipeg, Quebec, Southern Ontario, and Saskatchewan. Everywhere else is no man's land.

If the Acadie-Bathurst Titan move any time soon, it will be either to St. John's or Fredericton, and I have suspicions that Fredericton could not support a team for very long.

If they move anywher it will be to St. John's. Fredericton is not in the running for a QMJHL team. No rink.

 

[Shawa666]

Halifax has a bit of a little man complex unfortunately.
A lot of effort and money is wasted in efforts to 'put Halifax on the map!'.

Simply because the city is the secondlargest community east of Montreal, somehow the powers that be think that makes them on equal footing to larger cities like Montreal.

So a lot of stupid dreams are chased after, like the Commonwealth Games bid or major concerts on the Commons which lose a lot of public money because there simply aren't 50 000 people willing to shell out $100 for Paul McCartney or whoever. I fear the recent news about the Women's World Cup bid will be a similar facepalm worthy event, the same goes for the new convention centre downtown when it's clear there isn't a market out there for it.

I really wish this city could tail back their dreams and concentrate on realistic happenings. Stuff like the Canada Games, which is bringing in a solid amount of infrastructure for both the city and province is almost an afterthought, but that's the kind of stuff that actually makes sense.

Moncton, to their credit, seems to be much more aware of their place in the world, and thus they've got a new sensible stadium and have likely pulled ahead of Halifax when considering CFL expansion (which is a whole other hill of beans).

FTFY

 

[Mihairokov]

If they move anywher it will be to St. John's. Fredericton is not in the running for a QMJHL team. No rink.

Aitken Centre. UNB owns it, though, and it's essentially up to them what goes down.

My biggest concern with Fredericton isn't so much their arena issue, as it is their demographics.

 

[bosshogg18]

It could work if it were put in Sunnyvale and the team was run by Jim Lahey and Randy with Philadelphia Collins in charge of concessions.

 

[Charlie Milles*]

 

[OG6ix]

No, a franchise would not be sustainable in the maritimes. While we are at it, Winnipeg is going to continue to be a pawn as a relocation item so a NHL team can get what they want (new lease, arena, etc). Quebec city probably won't get a new NHL arena in the end of the day, and Hamilton will never get a NHL team as long as the leafs have a say.

Can we move on now? The lockout happened in 2005.. if anything if a team can't survive the NHL should just contract them. I'm sick of having Canadian assistance plans as much as I'm sick of seeing the NHL take over teams in the US.

 

[Jeffrey93]

So do you think a team could succeed in this location?

Absolutely not. Not a chance.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Moncton, to their credit, seems to be much more aware of their place in the world, and thus they've got a new sensible stadium and have likely pulled ahead of Halifax when considering CFL expansion (which is a whole other hill of beans).

That stadium won't mean much if the CFL looks at expanding.

This isn't a CFL stadium. Somebody will have to pay a considerable amount to expand on it...and from seeing it...building new wouldn't be much more expensive.

This stadium only has 10,000 permanent seats and no CFL type amenities to speak of.

 

[GreatCanadian]

No CFL amenities to speak of..... like what?

Building new would be much MUCH more expensive because lots of the stadium's needed goodies are already there.

The stadium has a media centre (although could be expanded) and also has a full training facility, weight rooms, cardio centre in the CEPS building attached to the stadium. There is a state-of-the-art practice facility nearby in Rocky Stone Field...

All it needs is 10,000-15,000 more seats, and some upgrades to things like luxury boxes etc...

Not easy, but not out of reach by any means. The stadium is over 60% there. A lot of things that normally need to be added to a stadium when built, was already there in the CEPS building.

Give it a few more years. There are rumors they will run two games on back-to-back weekends next year to see how the interest looks like (and to offset the cost to add the temp 10,000 seats again). If that works, expect the next step to kick in and people seriously looking at a franchise.

Remember that a little over a year ago, there was no stadium in town, no CFL game yet, no real idea how people would react... give it a year and the city should make more inroads. Gotta take it step by step.

 

[Jeffrey93]

No CFL amenities to speak of..... like what?

Building new would be much MUCH more expensive because lots of the stadium's needed goodies are already there.

You do realize this stadium cost like $20M to build. The new Winnipeg stadium is likely to cost over $200M. Once Hamilton and the Ti-Cats get their acts together and settle on a location that stadium will cost about the same.
In Moncton you would basically have to build a new stadium on top of this existing stadium. A CFL team might not like the location...if picking your own location costs an extra $15 to $20 million...I think I'd do it.

The stadium has a media centre (although could be expanded) and also has a full training facility, weight rooms, cardio centre in the CEPS building attached to the stadium. There is a state-of-the-art practice facility nearby in Rocky Stone Field...

Yeah...my arena in college had a 'media centre' too....it was a room with lots of wiring.
The rest of what you described is a gym. That's a room with equipment in it. Any room will do...just put the equipment in it. I can have a 'full training facility, weight rooms, cardio centre' in a barn if I wanted to.
State-of-the-art practice facility? You mean a field?

All it needs is 10,000-15,000 more seats, and some upgrades to things like luxury boxes etc...

Ahhh...now we get to the CFL amenities! Realize...this stadium is 10,000 seats and "all it needs" is another 15,000 seats and luxury boxes, etc. It needs basically a new stadium built on it.

Not easy, but not out of reach by any means. The stadium is over 60% there. A lot of things that normally need to be added to a stadium when built, was already there in the CEPS building.

10,000 seats are there. 25,000 required. That is 40% there.
How many luxury suites are in this stadium right now?
The rest is stuff every stadium has, even Canadian highschool stadiums...locker rooms, training facilities, etc. Those are just rooms.

Give it a few more years. There are rumors they will run two games on back-to-back weekends next year to see how the interest looks like (and to offset the cost to add the temp 10,000 seats again). If that works, expect the next step to kick in and people seriously looking at a franchise.

Remember that a little over a year ago, there was no stadium in town, no CFL game yet, no real idea how people would react... give it a year and the city should make more inroads. Gotta take it step by step.

There still isn't a stadium in town. There are bleachers on either side of a field with some structure.

University of Western Ontario (London Ontario) has TD Waterhouse Stadium.
McMaster University (Hamilton Ontario) has Ron Joyce Stadium.

There are two stadiums off the top of my head that are just as "suitable" for a CFL team as this Moncton Stadium. They just need 15,000 seats added on to them and they're good to go. Accomodating another 15,000 people should be eezy-peezy! Basically take the facility you have now...and more than double it. That will be quite costly. It will likely mean building an upper deck on at least one of the stadium sides....which will cost more than the initial lower level, unless they actually built it with adding an upper deck in mind.

I'm not against renovations to any stadium to bring it up to standard ( ), but this stadium isn't even 50% of what would be required. I don't think that makes Moncton a lock for a team anyway....just as easy to build new somewhere else.

Not sure how this has a thing to do with the NHL....

 

[Melrose Munch]

Moncton has weak corporate support, Irving can't do everything. Also who owns the team. Scratch that, maybe they will get the TiCats,

 

[Melrose Munch]

No, a franchise would not be sustainable in the maritimes. While we are at it, Winnipeg is going to continue to be a pawn as a relocation item so a NHL team can get what they want (new lease, arena, etc). Quebec city probably won't get a new NHL arena in the end of the day, and Hamilton will never get a NHL team as long as the leafs have a say.

Can we move on now? The lockout happened in 2005.. if anything if a team can't survive the NHL should just contract them. I'm sick of having Canadian assistance plans as much as I'm sick of seeing the NHL take over teams in the US.

Only great post here. Winnipeg = Los Angeles.

 

[Jeffrey93]

No, a franchise would not be sustainable in the maritimes. While we are at it, Winnipeg is going to continue to be a pawn as a relocation item so a NHL team can get what they want (new lease, arena, etc). Quebec city probably won't get a new NHL arena in the end of the day, and Hamilton will never get a NHL team as long as the leafs have a say.

Can we move on now? The lockout happened in 2005.. if anything if a team can't survive the NHL should just contract them. I'm sick of having Canadian assistance plans as much as I'm sick of seeing the NHL take over teams in the US.

I'm not very well read in how that plan actually works...but it hasn't been used in a while...has it??

I mean....last I checked the Canadian dollar was either at par or higher than the US dollar.

I have no problem with an international league (NHL) setting up a system to offset the fluctuation in currencies. If the US dollar ever dips down to less than 80 cents Canadian...I wouldn't be opposed to the Canadian teams tossing in dough to distribute to those most impacted in the US.

 

[Kebekoi]

Halifax has a bit of a little man complex unfortunately.
A lot of effort and money is wasted in efforts to 'put Halifax on the map!'.

Simply because the city is the largest community east of Montreal, somehow the powers that be think that makes them on equal footing to larger cities like Montreal.

Forgot something?


#02 Montréal 3,635,571
#07 Québec 715,515
#13 Halifax 372,858

Source (2006) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada

 

[Kebekoi]

and Hamilton will never get a NHL team as long as the leafs have a say.

FYI, the Leafs have a vote out of 30 to say if they accept the move. Too bad for your veto power.

 

[Drake1588]

The population size, the corporate presence, the health of the economy have all historically been issues in the Maritimes, with regard to attracting an existing NHL team or securing an expansion team. This has not really changed very much.

A metro population (2006 census figures) of 375,000 for Halifax just doesn't cut it, much less 125,000 in Moncton. Relying on people to drive in to see games on a regular basis from outside the metro area is simply not a risk that investors take with sports franchises.

Canadians love hockey, but there are not enough of them outside of the Quebec City-Windsor strip, Vancouver, and Alberta.

A very good question, however, is why the NHL has not put two teams in Montreal and two-three teams in Toronto. These are the two most under-served hockey markets in the world. No team could ever supplant the Leafs or Canadiens, but would there be fans enough remaining to embrace second teams in each city? Absolutely.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

I don't ever see the Maritimes getting a team.

That said, I think it's possible that they could outdraw teams like the Coyotes that average 6000-10000 in attendance.

 

[Killion]

50% of Maritimers' have way too much class to ever want to be a part of or even remotely associated with such a monopolistic & evil cabal as the NHL. The other 50%?.

"I woudnt want to join a club that would have people like me as a member".
Groucho Marx

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

why essentially was MLSE the last to survive in minor league hockey in the Maritimes DESPITE being only accessible by ferry?

the reason is Drake1588's point is indeed correct, not to mention when the Montreal Voyageurs came to Halifax, no one hockey-wise knew what, if any presence, that the QMJHL BECAME to those cities once the parent NHL clubs realized they'd be losing money putting their affiliates in danger of collapse (as what Calgary heard when they left Saint John in 2003).... all of those cities went the junior route because they had to or had no choice but to as St. John's found out w/ Mile One and the lease that even MLSE passed on when they left NFLD.

HOW MANY Maritime cities were home to a Canadiens affiliate, before it collapsed in their arch-rivals backyard, about a half-dozen, just as Toronto did before settling in St. John's.......

 

[GreatCanadian]

FYI, the Leafs have a vote out of 30 to say if they accept the move. Too bad for your veto power.

To the best of my knowledge, the Maple Leafs must agree to let any NHL team to form within 50 miles of the ACC (or Toronto itself, not sure).

If this is true, Hamilton is 40 miles away, and therefore falls in Maple Leafs territory

 

[kdb209]

To the best of my knowledge, the Maple Leafs must agree to let any NHL team to form within 50 miles of the ACC (or Toronto itself, not sure).

If this is true, Hamilton is 40 miles away, and therefore falls in Maple Leafs territory

No. Under NHL By-Law 36, adopted in the wake of the Al Davis vs NFL litigation, the rules for relocation were relaxed - only a simple majority is needed to approve a relocation and no team has a veto (if a League counsel makes a determination that the restrictions under Article 4 of the NHL Constitution are in violation of anti-trust law). The CCB relied on this By-Law when they investigated and ruled that the NHL policy did not violate the Competition Act.

During the Phoenix BK depositions it came out that the League's position is that the Article 4 restrictions (including a single team veto) now only apply to expansion and not relocation - although the Leafs have threatened legal action to challenge that position.

That said, it is very unlikely that a majority of the BoG would approve a relocation unless and until a territorial rights deal is agreed to with MLSE.