Proposal: Cory Schneider for Jake Allen

[Vancouver Canucks]

A 46 year old executive is going to pass on the secrets of the half-butterfly to Schneider, even though they already worked together for a year and this somehow never came up?

It seemed to me Allen was almost playing hybrid, so I thought that was from Brodeur.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Schneider isn't the same goalie he used to be. Having 1 bad season can be viewed as just an off-year, but 2 in a row is more of a trend. Schneider the past 2 seasons has been the same quality as Allen this past season.

Both goalies would be very hard to move, but Schneider has the worse contract. No way would I entertain this idea. No way in hell am I adding or giving anything of value for Schneider. If the players were flipped, I wouldn't give anything of value for Allen either.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I don't see New Jersey getting any offers that would justify moving Cory.

I also maintain he's still nursing an injury related to his groin, which he pulled back in January (?) against Boston. It was the Johansson game.

I suspect he'll have surgery in the offseason, and from there, we just have to cross fingers this was all injury-related. If he's still ass, then I'll start worrying.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Why would NJ want a goaltender who couldnt bring his team to the playoffs?

No thanks, we can just trade Schneider to a team without a starting goalie coming back. Rather a young prospect

 

[iFan]

I’ll do Eriksson for Schneider, I believe the contracts are a wash.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Why would NJ want a goaltender who couldnt bring his team to the playoffs?

No thanks, we can just trade Schneider to a team without a starting goalie coming back. Rather a young prospect

This time, there's no way Schneider can be traded for a top 10 pick.

 

[Flukeshot]

Allen's mental fragility is going to be a concern to any organization and it's not like the team trading for him can really interview him in advance. He is going to need to dispel that perception to be a target as a number 1 via trade.

The only way I see this type of deal making sense is if NJ really believed in Kinkaid and was happy to move Schneider for cap/term savings and have Allen as a back up. I think NJ would want to roll another year with Kinkaid taking over the majority of games.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

This time, there's no way Schneider can be traded for a top 10 pick.

Who cares - any goalie prospect or pick/player would likely be better than a goaltender whos last two seasons have been terrible

Want him in Vancouver?

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Who cares - any goalie prospect or pick/player would likely be better than a goaltender whos last two seasons have been terrible

Want him in Vancouver?

No thanks. We have Demko coming up the pipelines.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Who cares - any goalie prospect or pick/player would likely be better than a goaltender whos last two seasons have been terrible

Want him in Vancouver?

Schneider's last 2 seasons were terrible, Allen was just terrible last season. 2 seasons agao, Allen was terrible for a portion, but god-mode in the 2nd half.

 

[Jared Dunn]

If we did that trade, we might as well trade Husso and Binnington as the length of that contract puts those guys totally out of the picture.

Easy pass from my standpoint. Roll with Allen next year as 1A and hope Husso can go 1B with Allen as backup for the rest of his contract. He is excellent at opening the bench door, and those skills just aren't developed, they are born.

Is Binnington still in the picture as is? I haven't heard his name since he played for Canada.

I know he's had two brutal years but I'd still have more confidence in a Schneider/Husso tandem than Allen/Husso. I think Schneider can still play at an elite level

 

[bleedblue1223]

Is Binnington still in the picture as is? I haven't heard his name since he played for Canada.

I know he's had two brutal years but I'd still have more confidence in a Schneider/Husso tandem than Allen/Husso. I think Schneider can still play at an elite level

The extra year and extra cap isn't worth the risk.

 

[Majorityof1]

Schneider should benefit from Martin Brodeur who helps with goaltending.

Brodeur stepped in at the end of last season when we fired our goalie coach, Corsi. We hired Jake Allen's personal coach. David Alexander, for this season and Brodeur went back to being an executive. He doesn't really have that much interaction with Jake anymore. Brodeur did an amazing job when he was in the coaching role, but he wants to be a GM when he grows up, not a goalie coach.

Dominic is wrong about it being a good base. If NJ is dealing Schneider it's because they think Kincaid can do the job.

They are a playoff team. STL isn't. They aren't going to downgrade at D (which Allen is) in order to get one of the prospects that you are willing to deal and not one of your prime prospects. Age, salary, extra year... yadda yadda.... you are making a playoff team worse in net. I think if they are dealing Schneider the "base" of the deal should be the prospect. Now what STL prospect do you think is worth Schneider?

The idea originated from a Devil's fan who came to our board, said he wasn't sure who added and thought Allen could be a 1B to Kincaid. Allen just isn't a fit stylistically for the Blues but has the skills to do really well somewhere. The Blues do everything they can to suppress shots and High Danger scoring chances (3rd least in both, all situations). However, in doing so, they clog the middle with defenders trying to block shots (6th most) or push the play wide. So the shots that do go through are from wide angles or screened. Positioning on wide angles and tracking the puck through traffic are two of Allen's weaknesses (along with over-sliding at times). Staying mentally sharp when not constantly engaged is another. He is absolutely money when he can see the puck and it comes from prime scoring areas. Now, I did not watch enough Devils this year to know what extent he would experience the same problems with them. However, I do think on a team that where he'd see even a couple more shots a game would go a long way to keeping him engaged and on his game.

So St. Louis is not giving up a good prospect to have $10+M in salary committed to a goalie who doesn't fit stylistically and another who is coming off 2 down years with no indication of a turn around. If you want a change of scenery trade, some Blues fans may be interested in a gamble. But that is the only way we'd consider it. Schneider is precariously close to a negative value asset.

Also, not sure why you had to point out that the Blues missed the playoffs. The Devils had 3 more points than the Blues in a slightly easier division. The Blues missed because they scored 22 less goals than the Devils (due to an atrocious powerplay ranked 2nd worst in the league). Our defense (which Allen is a part of) put up better numbers than the Devils in save percentage (6th best to Devils 25th) and GAA (5th best to Devils 22nd). Allen has led the Blues to the playoffs starting a majority of games the two previous years while Schneider has never led the Devils to the playoffs with a majority of the starts (Kincaid got more this year). So how do playoffs matter? Actually, you talked me out of it. You guys need to give us a good prospect with Schneider or retain salary, because Allen has a better track record and played for the better defense

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Brodeur stepped in at the end of last season when we fired our goalie coach, Corsi. We hired Jake Allen's personal coach. David Alexander, for this season and Brodeur went back to being an executive. He doesn't really have that much interaction with Jake anymore. Brodeur did an amazing job when he was in the coaching role, but he wants to be a GM when he grows up, not a goalie coach.

Well, he could be the next Yzerman, I guess.

 

[Zippy316]

Why would NJ want a goaltender who couldnt bring his team to the playoffs?

No thanks, we can just trade Schneider to a team without a starting goalie coming back. Rather a young prospect

Only way this happens is if Kinkaid continues to play well into the playoffs. Here's my main theory behind something like this, assuming that holds true:

I don't think the Devils would be able to deal Schneider right now without taking a goalie and/or bad contract in return. If they did, I don't think the return would be ideal. Plus, I don't think there is a forward or D spot I would want to clog up with a Loui Eriksson or a similar player.

A lot of risk involved, but if you go into next year again with Schneider making 6 million, he almost has to be your starting goalie to start the year. If he continues to crap the bed and Kinkaid runs away with the spot, Schneider's value would tank even more and you would have a ridiculously hard time getting rid of him mid-season or the end of next year.

Now let's say you make this deal for Allen. Kinkaid is then the #1 goalie going into next year which he has absolutely earned, especially with a solid playoff run. Allen gives you a younger and cheaper option who has shown the ability in stretches to be the #1 goalie. You have an option in case Kinkaid regresses and you give Allen a chance in a system that should suit him better.

 

[Missionhockey]

Trading Schneider is a bad idea right now. Kinkaid just had his best season at 28 and he was horrible for about the first quarter of it. Right now I don't think the Devils are really sold on him.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Only way this happens is if Kinkaid continues to play well into the playoffs. Here's my main theory behind something like this, assuming that holds true:

I don't think the Devils would be able to deal Schneider right now without taking a goalie and/or bad contract in return. If they did, I don't think the return would be ideal. Plus, I don't think there is a forward or D spot I would want to clog up with a Loui Eriksson or a similar player.

A lot of risk involved, but if you go into next year again with Schneider making 6 million, he almost has to be your starting goalie to start the year. If he continues to crap the bed and Kinkaid runs away with the spot, Schneider's value would tank even more and you would have a ridiculously hard time getting rid of him mid-season or the end of next year.

Now let's say you make this deal for Allen. Kinkaid is then the #1 goalie going into next year which he has absolutely earned, especially with a solid playoff run. Allen gives you a younger and cheaper option who has shown the ability in stretches to be the #1 goalie. You have an option in case Kinkaid regresses and you give Allen a chance in a system that should suit him better.

Jake Allen is already 27 turning 28 in August

 

[Dr Quincy]

Brodeur stepped in at the end of last season when we fired our goalie coach, Corsi. We hired Jake Allen's personal coach. David Alexander, for this season and Brodeur went back to being an executive. He doesn't really have that much interaction with Jake anymore. Brodeur did an amazing job when he was in the coaching role, but he wants to be a GM when he grows up, not a goalie coach.



The idea originated from a Devil's fan who came to our board, said he wasn't sure who added and thought Allen could be a 1B to Kincaid. Allen just isn't a fit stylistically for the Blues but has the skills to do really well somewhere. The Blues do everything they can to suppress shots and High Danger scoring chances (3rd least in both, all situations). However, in doing so, they clog the middle with defenders trying to block shots (6th most) or push the play wide. So the shots that do go through are from wide angles or screened. Positioning on wide angles and tracking the puck through traffic are two of Allen's weaknesses (along with over-sliding at times). Staying mentally sharp when not constantly engaged is another. He is absolutely money when he can see the puck and it comes from prime scoring areas. Now, I did not watch enough Devils this year to know what extent he would experience the same problems with them. However, I do think on a team that where he'd see even a couple more shots a game would go a long way to keeping him engaged and on his game.

So St. Louis is not giving up a good prospect to have $10+M in salary committed to a goalie who doesn't fit stylistically and another who is coming off 2 down years with no indication of a turn around. If you want a change of scenery trade, some Blues fans may be interested in a gamble. But that is the only way we'd consider it. Schneider is precariously close to a negative value asset.

Also, not sure why you had to point out that the Blues missed the playoffs. The Devils had 3 more points than the Blues in a slightly easier division. The Blues missed because they scored 22 less goals than the Devils (due to an atrocious powerplay ranked 2nd worst in the league). Our defense (which Allen is a part of) put up better numbers than the Devils in save percentage (6th best to Devils 25th) and GAA (5th best to Devils 22nd). Allen has led the Blues to the playoffs starting a majority of games the two previous years while Schneider has never led the Devils to the playoffs with a majority of the starts (Kincaid got more this year). So how do playoffs matter? Actually, you talked me out of it. You guys need to give us a good prospect with Schneider or retain salary, because Allen has a better track record and played for the better defense

1) Not a Devils fan
2) Cool story
3) Keep Allen, as it seems it's been working out so great for you. Congrats.

 

[Zippy316]

Jake Allen is already 27 turning 28 in August

That's even more of a reason for me to consider doing this. Goalies are so fickle, but Allen has shown plenty of promise at times.

Raanta was 28 this year and just finally solidified a starting job. Talbot did the same at 27/28. Kinkaid bursted out this year at 28 years old. Bishop took over the starting job in Tampa in 2013/14 when he turned 28 mid-season and then went to the Finals the next year.

I think the Blues will look to move on from Allen because he's had his ups and downs and I think they've had enough. Every goalie above there needed a change of scenery (except for Kinkaid, but I'd say the Devils from last year to this one are a completely different team) in order to final gain some confidence and take over a starting job.

And one more. Dubnyk ended 2013-14 season in the AHL with the Hamilton Bulldogs after going from Edmonton -> Nashville -> Hamilton. He turned 28 that summer, got an opportunity in Arizona, and continued that into an incredible run with Minnesota after getting dealt.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

That's even more of a reason for me to consider doing this. Goalies are so fickle, but Allen has shown plenty of promise at times.

Raanta was 28 this year and just finally solidified a starting job. Talbot did the same at 27/28. Kinkaid bursted out this year at 28 years old. Bishop took over the starting job in Tampa in 2013/14 when he turned 28 mid-season and then went to the Finals the next year.

I think the Blues will look to move on from Allen because he's had his ups and downs and I think they've had enough. Every goalie above there needed a change of scenery (except for Kinkaid, but I'd say the Devils from last year to this one are a completely different team) in order to final gain some confidence and take over a starting job.

And one more. Dubnyk ended 2013-14 season in the AHL with the Hamilton Bulldogs after going from Edmonton -> Nashville -> Hamilton. He turned 28 that summer, got an opportunity in Arizona, and continued that into an incredible run with Minnesota after getting dealt.

So you dont think Allen falling apart in any meaningful game isn't a problem?

If it gets Schneider's contract out Im all for it

 

[Dbrownss]

Why would NJ want a goaltender who couldnt bring his team to the playoffs?

No thanks, we can just trade Schneider to a team without a starting goalie coming back. Rather a young prospect

While Allen fell apart in the last couple games, he was the only reason the Blues sniffed the playoffs after their 8 game melt down. While he was responsible for some of the losses, he probably got the least offensive support in the league for a 2mo stretch. Last year Allen was the reason the Blues made the playoffs and beat Minnesota.

 

[Zippy316]

So you dont think Allen falling apart in any meaningful game isn't a problem?

If it gets Schneider's contract out Im all for it

One bad game shouldn't define a goalie. He was a big reason they won 7 straight games to even get back into the playoff pictures. He was remarkable last post-season with a 1.96 GAA and .935 SV% in 11 games.

I've caught quite a few games where he's absolutely stood on his head and kept the Blues in it as well.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

One bad game shouldn't define a goalie. He was a big reason they won 7 straight games to even get back into the playoff pictures. He was remarkable last post-season with a 1.96 GAA and .935 SV% in 11 games.

I've caught quite a few games where he's absolutely stood on his head and kept the Blues in it as well.

And Kinkaid put up similar or better numbers in close to 15-20 games and so I ask, if Kinkaid wins the Devils the first series against Tampa, is he on Allen's level?

 

[Brodeur]

If the Devils had cap problems, then maybe moving Schneider would make more sense. But I don't see a ton of urgency to moving him right now. As mentioned, he was playing fine until December and he's been bad since the injury. We'll see if he's still not quite 100% right now.

As well as Kinkaid has played for the last couple months, I'd rather have Schneider around just in case. Scott Clemmensen saved our season in 2008-09, but reverted to being his usual self after that.

 

[Zippy316]

And Kinkaid put up similar or better numbers in close to 15-20 games and so I ask, if Kinkaid wins the Devils the first series against Tampa, is he on Allen's level?

I don't really like rating goalies, to be honest. It changes so much and all depends on who is hot and who isn't. Holtby can look like a top 5 goalie for a stretch of games and then at times look like a bottom 1o goalie.

Allen has had a lot more chances to play more minutes and stretches of games. He's thrived at times and he's really struggled at times. I think that's no different than Kinkaid as a back-up, but this is Kinkaid's first real opportunity at a starting gig and prolonged playing time.

I just think this potential scenarios gives the Devils two very similar goalies who fit the play style of the team way better than Schneider. Around the league, I think you're seeing it's extremely important to have two goalies capable of being starter quality because you have absolutely no idea what will happen on a season-by-season basis between injuries and form.

You saw Murray/Fleury the last two postseasons and this yea we have Grubauer/Holtby, Schneider/Kinkaid, Khudobin in Rask's absence, Bernier and Varlamov, Montreal lost without Price playing like a #1 goalie, Carolina tanked by Ward/Darling, the revolving door in Philly, Arizona tanked by Domingue's struggles early on, and I'm sure there's more I'm missing.