Coots: Sean Couturier

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

JVR made his skating more explosive as a 24 year old.

http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/blogs/jonas_siegel/?id=434023

Oh I know, I was just clarifying that is what he meant. God forbid a guy comes into the league and is not in 100% NHL shape and takes a few seasons to, you know, MATURE, which is what kids (yeah, he's 20, a kid) do.

 

[Boxscore]

So there is no room for improvement in a 20 year old's game.

Yes but skating is usually one area that doesn't improve drastically. Look at Hull, Robitaille, etc. Awful skaters but elite hockey sense and scoring hands. Bad skaters rarely if EVER become good ones. If you can't skate you need to be blessed with elite skills and Couturier has neither. Could he be a decent, 20 goal, 25 assist 3rd line center who is decent in his own end? Yes. Welcome to Michal Handzus.... and a waste of the 8th overall pick.

 

[Appleyard]

While I agree that Couturier needs to improve his skating to fulfil his potential... to say he does not have good hands is pretty silly.

 

[Stizzle]

It's seems like Couturier is the new whipping boy which is very odd to me. He is the cheapest top 9 forward on the team for the next few years. Why not go after B. Schenn who makes almost double, doesn't backcheck, and has flubbed more golden chances than anybody else on this team?

Couturier is definitely not the new whipping boy of the fanbase. A few vocal posters have a negative opinion of him. I'd say a large contingent of us are very high on him and see his skill set as super unique and extremely valuable.

 

[Protest]

Yes but skating is usually one area that doesn't improve drastically. Look at Hull, Robitaille, etc. Awful skaters but elite hockey sense and scoring hands. Bad skaters rarely if EVER become good ones. If you can't skate you need to be blessed with elite skills and Couturier has neither. Could he be a decent, 20 goal, 25 assist 3rd line center who is decent in his own end? Yes. Welcome to Michal Handzus.... and a waste of the 8th overall pick.

Is defense not a skill? And questioning his hockey IQ makes you seem absolutely clueless.

 

[Boxscore]

While I agree that Couturier needs to improve his skating to fulfil his potential... to say he does not have good hands is pretty silly.

He has 17 CAREER goals in 123 games. Yeah, his hands are real good. I'm not saying Couturier is garbage, but he is what he is... a 3rd line player who is a good in his own zone. But he is not an offensive powerhouse, doesn't have the skating or hands to ever be, and he should have been dealt to improve other areas.

 

[PK16]

JVR made his skating more explosive as a 24 year old.

http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/blogs/jonas_siegel/?id=434023

He was a pretty damn good skater to begin with. He may have had some small incremental increase but skating didn't seem to be his issue in Philly. Not sure this is proof that Coots can dramatically increase his skating ability. Seems like a fine tuning for JVR more than anything.

 

[Boxscore]

Is defense not a skill? And questioning his hockey IQ makes you seem absolutely clueless.

Offensive skills, my friend. Sure, he is a good defensive, 3rd line player. Great. With the 8th overall pick, I would have hoped the Flyers would draft a kid that could amount to more than a 3rd line, defensive center. The difference between Couturier and a player like Bergeron is that Bergeron is a great skater, fast enough, and has some very nice OFFENSIVE skills.

 

[Protest]

He has 17 CAREER goals in 123 games. Yeah, his hands are real good. I'm not saying Couturier is garbage, but he is what he is... a 3rd line player who is a good in his own zone. But he is not an offensive powerhouse, doesn't have the skating or hands to ever be, and he should have been dealt to improve other areas.

Why does he need to be an offensive powerhouse? Who the hell is claiming he is or is going to be? Saying that he should be traded is asinine. You need a player like him to win a cup, plain and simple. You do not trade legit shut down centers. Simple as that.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Yes but skating is usually one area that doesn't improve drastically. Look at Hull, Robitaille, etc. Awful skaters but elite hockey sense and scoring hands. Bad skaters rarely if EVER become good ones. If you can't skate you need to be blessed with elite skills and Couturier has neither. Could he be a decent, 20 goal, 25 assist 3rd line center who is decent in his own end? Yes. Welcome to Michal Handzus.... and a waste of the 8th overall pick.

I don't see how it's a waste?

If he becomes Michal Handzus, that is a bit of a let down from his projection but it's hardly a waste. That is still an important piece to a team, and since we have him as a young guy, he will be cheaper than signing a guy like that from free agency. He's still got a ton of room for growth. I won't pass judgment on how great he is until he's got a few more years on the team. 20 is far too early, considering a lot of guys in his draft class either just entered or haven't even been in the league that long.

 

[Curufinwe]

I like how this guy keeps calling a Michael Handzus-type player a waste of the 8th pick when someone went to the trouble of showing what an actual waste of an #8 - #10 pick looks like.

For the sake of comparison here are the number 8,9, and 10 draft picks from the 4 years preceding Couturier's draft year.

2010

8- Alexander Burmistrov - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=117173

9- Mikael Granlund - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=118389

10- Dylan McIlrath - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=116161

2009

8- Scott Glennie - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=106900

9- Jared Cowen - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=98865

10- Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=117142

2008

8- Mikkel Boedker - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=106795

9- Josh Bailey - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=89753

10- Cody Hodgson - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=96546

2007

8- Zach Hamill - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=73519

9- Logan Couture - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=89766

10.- Keaton Ellerby - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=80306

 

[Boxscore]

Why does he need to be an offensive powerhouse? Who the hell is claiming he is or is going to be? Saying that he should be traded is asinine. You need a player like him to win a cup, plain and simple. You do not trade legit shut down centers. Simple as that.

You do realize that Sean Couturier was a trade chip that could have been used to get Bobby Ryan, Loui Eriksson or Jonathan Bernier this summer, right? For two year's now, Couturier is a player other teams have coveted in trade talks yet Paul Holmgren considers him an "untouchable" for some odd reason.

And, yes, you do trade "legit shutdown centers" when the return could be a top line sniper (which Flyers need badly) or a potential franchise goalie. Teams acquire 3rd line, checking centers a lot easier than top scorers and goalies. Accomplished players like Handzus and Bolland could be had via trade or free agency.... and their sticker price is a lot less than other players.

 

[Curufinwe]

Mason is as good as Bernier and cheaper. Only an idiot GM would have given up Couturier for him, especially given the Flyers cap situation.

He has 17 CAREER goals in 123 games. Yeah, his hands are real good.

That's 0.138 goals per game.

Henrik Sedin scored 25 goals in his first 164 games. That's 0.152 goals per game.

And he didn't start playing in the NHL till he was 20 years old.

 

[Protest]

Offensive skills, my friend. Sure, he is a good defensive, 3rd line player. Great. With the 8th overall pick, I would have hoped the Flyers would draft a kid that could amount to more than a 3rd line, defensive center. The difference between Couturier and a player like Bergeron is that Bergeron is a great skater, fast enough, and has some very nice OFFENSIVE skills.

Bergeron may be a faster skater, but that's amounted to what exactly? He's a 50-60 point player. He had 2 high scoring years in the 2 highest scoring years since the 95-96 season. The league immediately following the lockout was much different, and much higher scoring. 95 point Danny Briere?

He also was older than Couturier is right now when he was putting up those points, and I'd be willing to bet he was used a hell of a lot differently than Couturier has been.

A forwards peak scoring years are usually 26-27 with their prime scoring coming from 23-28. They start to show an offensive improvement at 22. Sean is still 2 years of physical development away from that age.

If he has no offensive skill how did he dominate his junior league? Why was he considered for the 1st overall pick prior to getting mono?

And with that pick maybe the Flyers should have got someone more like these guys. Compare them to what Couturier has done so far.

For the sake of comparison here are the number 8,9, and 10 draft picks from the 4 years preceding Couturier's draft year.

2010

8- Alexander Burmistrov - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=117173

9- Mikael Granlund - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=118389

10- Dylan McIlrath - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=116161

2009

8- Scott Glennie - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=106900

9- Jared Cowen - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=98865

10- Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=117142

2008

8- Mikkel Boedker - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=106795

9- Josh Bailey - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=89753

10- Cody Hodgson - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=96546

2007

8- Zach Hamill - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=73519

9- Logan Couture - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=89766

10.- Keaton Ellerby - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=80306

 

[Protest]

You do realize that Sean Couturier was a trade chip that could have been used to get Bobby Ryan, Loui Eriksson or Jonathan Bernier this summer, right? For two year's now, Couturier is a player other teams have coveted in trade talks yet Paul Holmgren considers him an "untouchable" for some odd reason.

And, yes, you do trade "legit shutdown centers" when the return could be a top line sniper (which Flyers need badly) or a potential franchise goalie. Teams acquire 3rd line, checking centers a lot easier than top scorers and goalies. Accomplished players like Handzus and Bolland could be had via trade or free agency.... and their sticker price is a lot less than other players.

Top line snipers win championship!

Couturier is a waste, but Bernier is a potentail franchise goalie? If he's a potential franchise goalie than so is Mason.

What was the sticker price for Jordan Staal?

I'm starting to think you don't understand..like..things.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Trading Couturier is an awesome way to fill one hole by digging another. Fowards like him don't grow on trees. The ability to play exceptional defense yet chip in 30-40 points a year (Which is a modest projection based on what he's shown as a freaking kid in a man's league with awful linemates) is flat-out rare. It's also a pre-req for Cup contention, along with having a legit #1 center, a legit #1 Dman, and solid goaltending.

So, let's say we trade him. Now what? Our best defensive forward is now Talbot...and that's about it. He happens to suck at center. A team that is awful about getting out of their own zone has just given up their center who is best at defending top players while moving the play up the ice and establishing offensive zone presence instead of just dumping it in. This sounds like a good way to turn this team into Edmonton.

 

[Boxscore]

Top line snipers win championship!

Couturier is a waste, but Bernier is a potentail franchise goalie? If he's a potential franchise goalie than so is Mason.

What was the sticker price for Jordan Staal?

I'm starting to think you don't understand..like..things.

Umm, really? One of these guys is in the HHOF. Another will be. The third is a complete turd. Yet all 3 of them are 10x the player Sean Couturier will ever be. If you believe otherwise you need to take off your orange glasses.

Have you even watched the Leafs play this year? Yes, Bernier is a potential FRANCHISE goalie. Steve Mason is potentially a very good one... and he has been quite good this year, but not as good as Bernier.

The sticker price for Jordan Staal was:

1. A legit, 3rd line, defensive, energy guy (Sutter)
2. A top 1st round pick (who ended up being Derrick Pouliot) who would be the BEST overall prospect in the Flyers system today, ironically.

Plus you have to keep in mind that Jordan Staal was on the verge of becoming a UFA and already stated his intentions of playing in Carolina with his brother.

That said, I don't know what Jordan Staal's sticker price has to do with Sean Couturier because Staal is twice the player he is.

So maybe it's you who doesn't understand... like... things?

 

[Appleyard]

And as for a 'waste' of a no.8 pick.

From 1990-2002 43 forwards were taken in picks 6-10. (As if you go later than that most of the guys are still playing/a lot only just started.)

They average 533 GP and 269P each. So the average 6-10 pick averaged 41 points a year over their career. (As you will see later though, this is heavily skewed... the median is nowhere near this, this would be about the 70th centile by the median... as only 13 of 43 achieve this mark.)

Of these 43 only 6 were playing regularly in the NHL at ages 18-20.

Arnott: 120GP, 105P 0.875PPG (72PPY)
Samsonov: 160GP 98P 0.61PPG (50PPY)
Dvorak: 155GP 66P 0.42PPG (34PPY)
Hartnell: 150GP 57P 0.38PPG (31PPY)
Bouchard: 111GP 42P 0.37PPG (30PPY)
Doan: 137 GP 29P 0.21PPG (17PPY)

Couturier: 123 42P 0.34PPG (28PPY)

All the above apart from Doan and Couturier played on the top two lines for at least 1 of the two seasons.

So by Couturiers age, of those 43 players drafted in the 6-10 bracket he is 5th in GP (with a lockout taking 35 games off) and joint 5th of the 43 in points.

Here are the rest of the guys in the 6-10 range in that time who have put up over .5PPG through their career (13 out of 43) and how they in their first two years:

Smyth (age 19-21): 51 GP 11P
Forsberg (age 22-24): 129GP 166P
Stillman (age 21-23): 84GP 37P
Lupul: (age 20-21): 75GP 34P
Koivu: (age 22-24): 146GP 75P
Kozlov: (age 19-21): 78GP 21P
Ruutu: (age 20-22): 97GP 49P

So only 5 out of 43 forwards taken 6-10 from 1990-2002 were over 0.5 PPG through their first two years in the NHL. (13 of the 43 have done over their career.)

So only 13 of 43 guys in that range became 40 point players.

2 of them were 22-24 at debut, 1 20-22 and 2 18-20.

Interestingly all 6 of the guys who played in the NHL regularly aged 18-20 went on to be .5 PPG + guys.

Considering Couts is above or on similar pace (below 35 points) to 4 of those 6 who played in the NHL at his age and all became 50 point guys I would not be too concerned.

 

[Boxscore]

Trading Couturier is an awesome way to fill one hole by digging another.

See, this is where we disagree. What "hole" is caused by trading Sean Couturier? The role of a 3rd line, checking center? We currently have Max Talbot who can slip right into that role and we have Scott Laughton waiting in the wings who could end up even better at that role because of his skating ability and edge. Christ, if worst came to absolute worst, the Flyers could have Adam Hall fill that role as a stop gap.... or the Flyers could trade for a player like Mark Letestu, Boyd Gordon or Antoine Vermette if they really NEEDED to.

You honestly don't think having a top like winger like Ryan or Eriksson would help this team significantly more than keeping Sean Couturier as your 3rd line checking center? Wow.

 

[Boxscore]

And as for a 'waste' of a no.8 pick.

Gees, please stop with the other 8th picks and the forwards taken, etc. The Flyers passed on Dougie Hamilton and Jonas Brodin to take Sean Couturier when they CLEARLY lacked viable defensive depth within the organization..... and at the time had Giroux, Briere, Talbot and Schenn on the team. Their evaluation of TALENT is poor which is why they figured Couturier would be better than Hamilton or Brodin (which he is NOT). It's also why the messed up by taking Morin over superior talents like Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore.... and that's just defensemen.

 

[Protest]

Umm, really? One of these guys is in the HHOF. Another will be. The third is a complete turd. Yet all 3 of them are 10x the player Sean Couturier will ever be. If you believe otherwise you need to take off your orange glasses.

Have you even watched the Leafs play this year? Yes, Bernier is a potential FRANCHISE goalie. Steve Mason is potentially a very good one... and he has been quite good this year, but not as good as Bernier.

The sticker price for Jordan Staal was:

1. A legit, 3rd line, defensive, energy guy (Sutter)
2. A top 1st round pick (who ended up being Derrick Pouliot) who would be the BEST overall prospect in the Flyers system today, ironically.

Plus you have to keep in mind that Jordan Staal was on the verge of becoming a UFA and already stated his intentions of playing in Carolina with his brother.

That said, I don't know what Jordan Staal's sticker price has to do with Sean Couturier because Staal is twice the player he is.

So maybe it's you who doesn't understand... like... things?

How many championships did those 3 bring their teams.

Jordan Staal is a 45 point, 3rd line checking center. You know, a waste. Especially considering he was the 2nd Overall pick.

I can only take so much of this before I cause the thread to get locked and things to be deleted, so I'll end it at this. You have no idea what you're talking about, and you plainly refuse to see what people have been clearly pointing out to you. How many times does Appleyard have to lay stuff out for you before you actually respond to him?

 

[Appleyard]

Gees, please stop with the other 8th picks and the forwards taken, etc. The Flyers passed on Dougie Hamilton and Jonas Brodin to take Sean Couturier when they CLEARLY lacked viable defensive depth within the organization..... and at the time had Giroux, Briere, Talbot and Schenn on the team. Their evaluation of TALENT is poor which is why they figured Couturier would be better than Hamilton or Brodin (which he is NOT). It's also why the messed up by taking Morin over superior talents like Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore.... and that's just defensemen.

So you can guarantee that Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore will be better than Morin? And that Brodin and Hamilton in fifteen years will have had better careers than Couts?

You should go and scout for an NHL team.

And for a team with bad talent evaluation it is strange they have been above average in 'hits' (% wise by games played) with both early and late round picks over the last 20 years... even though they regularly have a 20-30 pick. Where they have lost out is actually trading a lot of their young talent too early due to impatience... so a lot became good on other teams.

 

[Protest]

Also,

Jonathan Bernier: 2.12 GAA .936 SV%

Steve Mason: 2.17 GAA .930 SV%

 

[Boxscore]

So you can guarantee that Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore will be better than Morin? And that Brodin and Hamilton in fifteen years will have had better careers than Couts?

Can I guarantee it? Of course not. Nobody can. Morrissey could break his neck tomorrow in a game and retire. But I am willing to bet that at least 3 of the 4 have better careers than Samuel Morin. I can also say with certainty that all 4 of those other defenseman have more skill and upside than Sam Morin. Could Morin end up the best of the bunch? Of course. I don't think he will though.

And yes, I will bet my life that Hamilton and Brodin (if healthy) have better careers than Sean Couturier. Brodin is ALREADY a top-pairing defenseman with great two-way skills. Hamilton has the skating, size and skills to be a top-pairing (and scoring) defenseman in the mold of Chara. He has struggled but has shown flashes of greatness.

If Couturier hits his peak, he is what..... one of the best 3rd line, checking centers in the league who can put up 45-55 points? Yes, Brodin and Hamilton will be better. I'll make that proclamation with ease.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Also,

Jonathan Bernier: 2.12 GAA .936 SV%

Steve Mason: 2.17 GAA .930 SV%

Isn't their career numbers pretty identical as well?