Continuous Rebuilders. How about trying to win?

ULF_55

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Kessel is almost inarguably the hottest forward in the NHL now and is putting a track record of this type of scoring together as well.

I don't know what he needs to do to be mentioned with the players best players in the NHL.

Two of the players you've mentioned in Toews and Bergeron don't have as much individual talent as Kessel, But make up for it in other areas. What Kessel does for a team is just as important.

Yes, it is time to pull out the stops, spend some prospects and 1st. rounders and land a 1st pairing defender who can play 23 minutes a night. NOT a RENTAL, but an under contract 26-30 year old to play with Kessel and gang for the next 5 years.

Gardiner, Finn, Percy, Biggs, ... all expendable.
 

Delicious Dangles*

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LOL at the facepalm. May I humbly suggest an english lesson or two.

You don't like the 50-1 and 15-1 odds. OK then, according to you, what are the odds of LA winning the cup this year, and same for the Leafs?
So, ignoring the whole thing again. Gotcha.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what I think the odds are. Unlike you, I don't change my definitions and the value I place on variables like hot/cold stretches based on the quality of the team, or the name on the jersey.

If you must know, I think both have a pretty equally slim chance, but the experience is still extremely valuable and there's always a chance.
 
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Gary Nylund

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So, ignoring the whole thing again. Gotcha.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what I think the odds are. Unlike you, I don't change my definitions and the value I place on variables like hot/cold stretches based on the quality of the team, or the name on the jersey.

If you must know, I think both have a pretty equally slim chance, but the experience is still extremely valuable and there's always a chance.

So according to you, LA and Toronto have an equal chance of winning the cup.

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:
 

Delicious Dangles*

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So according to you, LA and Toronto have an equal chance of winning the cup.

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:
More or less, yes. I don't think LA really has any better chance than we do, considering all the variables.

Instead of repeating my answer, why don't you make some of your own.
 

pooleboy

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during Burke's tenure we've had the exact number of picks over the years.

I think people have issue with nonis's trading of 2nds. which is pretty hard to argue when you realize we have Bernier, bolland, Holland and Holland looks like the worst of them.

Burke did a stellar job of adding prospects to this team. but people have a moronic issue of non-team drafted players. kessel will never be as good as he could because he isn't a leaf draft pick. its moronic.

i cant speak for everyone but for me idc if Nonis trades 2nds as long as it isn't a 1st imo(however if the return is worth it go for it), 2nds are a dime a dozen. We have acquired some pretty talented players with those 2nd round picks as well which includes our franchise goaltender, however, what i dont like is losing out on value when it is clear that a player has hit his peak potential and keeping that asset will only decrease the value of that asset. We had a chance to trade Grabo, Kuly,Mac one year with Brian Burke and he decided to keep those players and get nothing out of Macurthur, we ended up buying out Grabovski and right now looks like we will lose out on getting valuable asset for Kulimen. Everyone with good vision could see that year with Burke we could have traded these players and gutted our team and just lost every game and thats what he didn't want, a losing atmosphere but this culture has changed and it is a team to win and imo Kulimen and Raymond aren't guys we will retain and we should get their value for them while we can when its at its peak aka the trade deadline.

Now i would trade younger players aka Gardiner, Kadri, Franson and even Rielly (would have to be a huge return) but for young players aswell, i dont overvalue prospects, i just dont like losing assets when we know we wont keep them, I said the same thing about mcarthur and bozak last year but keeping kulimen for the playoffs will help us obviously but imo letting a prospect who might be with our team longterm aka D'amigo, Ashton, Leivo, Mckegg, Holland could benefit more and the Leafs would benefit more, and re-couping assets is great because in 2-3 years they could possibly push out another player like D'amigo which we gave a chance too and then trade that asset for another asset. Its a continious cycle with having ur core players + others pushing for spots with prospects, Kulimen hasn't lost his spot but out of asset management we should move him for a 1st, grab another late 1st rounder let him develop in our system... we can only benefit from having more high end talent being drafted by our team for players we may dont necissarily need to be successful in the playoffs, its not like Kessel is a UFA and were talking about losing our leading scorer, this is a 3rd liner. Raymond is in the same boat as Kulimen.... I agree losing them will decrease our chances of winning but let our core player gain more experience, give our prospects chances, people shiver around here about letting prospects play in big games but how can they prove their worth unless they prove it in those big games.I realize this draft is weak but having 3 guys grow in our system which we can retain for a long time rather than 2 players we can control for 2 months is way better asset management, something the Leafs have lacked for a long time.

Also, these are assets, these assets might mature in 4 years but there movable, its not like once u draft a player you cant move them. Like the Jays did with the Haladay trade, you trade for for younger assets, and when your team is ready to compete you have those extra assets to use to propel your team. The Leafs in previous years didn't draft, (2000s) trade their prospects for the good of winning, which is good. The Leafs also got burned by getting literally no assets for Sundin, Tucker, Mccabe, Kubina (well we got Komi) all of which should have given us a lot of younger assets(we did get a good return for Kaberle though, not Jeff Carter and a 1st though ;). You can trade younger players when your going for it, but imo this Leafs team isn't good enough to giving up assets for playoff pushes (yes losing kulimen in the summer is giving up assets). They also dont have a lot of assets to be tossing around. Its not like we have 5 Matt Finns, we only have 2 imo, him and Percy with chances for Granberg and others which are closer to reaches than anything, we dont have a lot of assets to just give away when people will want to compete, the cupboards aren't bare but their not overbearing either remember the difference.

Our prospect pool, while it is better than it has been in recent years, still isn't amazing. Its good, but we dont have multiple blue chips at every position. We have areas we can improve and the best way to do that is draft players and develop them, as a prospect who comes into a team with a winning culture and has won a couple of times before (made the playoffs, ect)playing is so much easier than having to be the guy. What I mean is, everyone wonders how Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand are all so good being drafted so late in the draft, its because they came into a winning atmospher. They didn't have the weight of the world on them to lead the team, so picking up some guys in the draft early could pay dividends later, especially with a team that has a lot of talent already, bringing in more elite talent at the jr level to develop in our system is very beneficial.

Now i agree with the poster above about the Leafs and Kings both having slim chances of winning, hockey is a sport of upsets because bounces go every which way..... LA isn't the class of the NHL by any stretch, yes there a good team but not the best or favourites...
 
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Durkin67

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Come on, the franchise had a dip from when it was a contender just before the lockout.

JFj told MLSE it needed to rebuild and they said the emperor's clothes were just fine.

Any competent GM could have done what Burke did all you have to do is look around the NHL and see all the other teams who are not picking in the lottery.

Is Bernier an improvement? All Nonis. Will Bolland be huge like many are suggesting? All Nonis.

I am in no way saying Burke was a bad GM, I just don't see that he's the best GM in the league. Feaster won a Cup in Tampa ... for that argument.


The franchise experienced "a dip". That's your argument? Show me a club that hasn't. Bottom line is the club that pushed Boston to the brink of game 7 was Burke's club.

Not any GM would have been able to restructure the organization from top to bottom the way Burke did. Youre deliberately under-selling him. Not all GM's would have had the stones to trade 2 firsts for a 21 year old coming off shoulder surgery who has since emerged as one of the league's premiere snipers, who has learned to play a 200 foot game. He predicted 30 was the floor not the ceiling and it looks like Kessel will blow by 40 this year. Not any GM would have been able to pull off the deal that yielded Lupul and Gards, or Phaneuf, or Franson. Nonis did a great job landing Bernier and Bolland; credit where credit is due, but you have no logical premise for discounting Burke's impact on this club.
 

ULF_55

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The franchise experienced "a dip". That's your argument? Show me a club that hasn't. Bottom line is the club that pushed Boston to the brink of game 7 was Burke's club.

Not any GM would have been able to restructure the organization from top to bottom the way Burke did. Youre deliberately under-selling him. Not all GM's would have had the stones to trade 2 firsts for a 21 year old coming off shoulder surgery who has since emerged as one of the league's premiere snipers, who has learned to play a 200 foot game. He predicted 30 was the floor not the ceiling and it looks like Kessel will blow by 40 this year. Not any GM would have been able to pull off the deal that yielded Lupul and Gards, or Phaneuf, or Franson. Nonis did a great job landing Bernier and Bolland; credit where credit is due, but you have no logical premise for discounting Burke's impact on this club.

I'm saying Burke improved the team, just like other GM's improved their clubs.
 

Durkin67

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I'm saying Burke improved the team, just like other GM's improved their clubs.


That's about as ambiguous a statement as one could make. Good for "other" GM's. Fact is, no "other" Leafs GM has ever succeeded in cutting through the bureaucracy and B.S. to put together a legitimate executive group. Previous incarnations featured a "buddy system" in which inept and unqualified people made bad decisions like it was one of the 7 virtues. He was the one to put an end to the nasty habit of trading away futures for aging immediate help. In short, despite a "love him or hate him" personality, he stopped the bleeding, and ushered in a new era of respectability. No other GM has succeeded in doing so in Toronto, and few could have.
 

ULF_55

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That's about as ambiguous a statement as one could make. Good for "other" GM's. Fact is, no "other" Leafs GM has ever succeeded in cutting through the bureaucracy and B.S. to put together a legitimate executive group. Previous incarnations featured a "buddy system" in which inept and unqualified people made bad decisions like it was one of the 7 virtues. He was the one to put an end to the nasty habit of trading away futures for aging immediate help. In short, despite a "love him or hate him" personality, he stopped the bleeding, and ushered in a new era of respectability. No other GM has succeeded in doing so in Toronto, and few could have.

What are you talking about?

You didn't see the Leafs in the 90's?

You didn't see the 100 point teams before the lockout?

And that's just Leafs' teams. You have to compare to all teams to evaluate a GM, not just a rookie GM like JFj.
 

pooleboy

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What are you talking about?

You didn't see the Leafs in the 90's?

You didn't see the 100 point teams before the lockout?

And that's just Leafs' teams. You have to compare to all teams to evaluate a GM, not just a rookie GM like JFj.

Other GMs around the league don't have the same pressures as the leafs gm for one, and for two I'd like to see a better trade record and asset record in 2-3 year Burke was at helm gathering assets like phaneuf, lupul, gardiner, bozak kessel ect ect who did a better job?

We had somethhing really good and people in Toronto can't stand that we actually had something good for once,

Edit: I really like nonis too but I'd like to have 2 really good GMs not just one
 

theIceWookie

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Yes, it is time to pull out the stops, spend some prospects and 1st. rounders and land a 1st pairing defender who can play 23 minutes a night. NOT a RENTAL, but an under contract 26-30 year old to play with Kessel and gang for the next 5 years.

Gardiner, Finn, Percy, Biggs, ... all expendable.

And what if we trade Percy, Finn, Gardiner and they become the next players in a long line of talented Leafs traded away because this team had little patience...
 

Faltorvo

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Yes, it is time to pull out the stops, spend some prospects and 1st. rounders and land a 1st pairing defender who can play 23 minutes a night. NOT a RENTAL, but an under contract 26-30 year old to play with Kessel and gang for the next 5 years.

Gardiner, Finn, Percy, Biggs, ... all expendable.

I really hope your kidding or just trying to create conversation.

Me thinks we have 3/4 youngens ready to grow even more, MR/JB/NK/JG.

The days of blowing out the youth and top picks are done and over with.
 

studebaker17

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Yes, it is time to pull out the stops, spend some prospects and 1st. rounders and land a 1st pairing defender who can play 23 minutes a night. NOT a RENTAL, but an under contract 26-30 year old to play with Kessel and gang for the next 5 years.

Gardiner, Finn, Percy, Biggs, ... all expendable.

they're at least a few years away from that. let some of the defense grow into their roles hopefully and then see where it's at. the teams still on an up cycle for at least 5 more years before it's all in.
 

Durkin67

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What are you talking about?

You didn't see the Leafs in the 90's?

You didn't see the 100 point teams before the lockout?

And that's just Leafs' teams. You have to compare to all teams to evaluate a GM, not just a rookie GM like JFj.

I suggest you read up on the sordid, bizarre history of the Maple Leafs head office before continuing to comment on this issue. Start with the Strachan book "why the Leafs Suck".
 

The Apologist

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What are you talking about?

You didn't see the Leafs in the 90's?

You didn't see the 100 point teams before the lockout?

And that's just Leafs' teams. You have to compare to all teams to evaluate a GM, not just a rookie GM like JFj.

Hmmmm, I am almost positive there was something different in the way teams were built in the 90s.
Something on the tip of my tongue, right there...
It involved big market teams being able to basically buy talent from other teams if I remember correctly.....
 

ULF_55

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I suggest you read up on the sordid, bizarre history of the Maple Leafs head office before continuing to comment on this issue. Start with the Strachan book "why the Leafs Suck".

Al and I lived through it.

http://www.coxbloc.com/2008/08/al_strachan_come_on_down.html

As far as I can tell, it started back in early 2001 when Strachan claimed that Burke, then GM of the Vancouver Canucks, was prepared to deal Brendan Morrison and Bryan Allen for Mike Peca. Hardly Hogan leaving Savage alone to get his ass kicked by Akeem and the Big Bossman, but Burke went off like a one man Cox Bloc anyway:

"The very fact that Al Strachan reported it, in my opinion, makes it extremely likely it has no factual basis what-so-ever. I deny it specifically and categorically. I have never discussed Brendan Morrison with Buffalo, I have never discussed Bryan Allen with Buffalo and I have not talked to Darcy Regier in three weeks. So I'm shocked that a respectable media outlet like Hockey Night in Canada would allow this garbage rumour-mongering to take place. I'm amazed that whoever produces that show would tolerate this."
 

Durkin67

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You cab pick and choose your quotes all you like but the fact remains that pre-Burke/JFJ/Dryden/Quinn/Fletcher, et al, the Leafs' executive committee was a joke, full of non-hockey, stuffed shirts and yes-men trying to justify a paycheque. Quite akin to an episode of Game of Thrones in many ways, chock-full of one-upmanship, back-biting and self serving decisions at the expense of the good name of the franchise.


That Burke and Srachan dont exchange Christmas cards doesnt negate this.
 

ULF_55

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You cab pick and choose your quotes all you like but the fact remains that pre-Burke/JFJ/Dryden/Quinn/Fletcher, et al, the Leafs' executive committee was a joke, full of non-hockey, stuffed shirts and yes-men trying to justify a paycheque. Quite akin to an episode of Game of Thrones in many ways, chock-full of one-upmanship, back-biting and self serving decisions at the expense of the good name of the franchise.


That Burke and Srachan dont exchange Christmas cards doesnt negate this.

Fletcher is over 20 years ago, and we know all about Ballard's Game of Thrones, or is it Games of Guess who's in the bag?

Fletcher's team is still better and no he didn't have an unlimited budget for the youngsters who weren't around. Ballard was, in addition to his corruption, also cheap.

Again did I say Burke was bad?

I just think he's over rated, more an average GM. Feaster won a Cup just like Burke did.

The current Leafs spend as much as every other team can and that wasn't always the case.
 

theIceWookie

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Fletcher is over 20 years ago, and we know all about Ballard's Game of Thrones, or is it Games of Guess who's in the bag?

Fletcher's team is still better and no he didn't have an unlimited budget for the youngsters who weren't around. Ballard was, in addition to his corruption, also cheap.

Again did I say Burke was bad?

I just think he's over rated, more an average GM. Feaster won a Cup just like Burke did.

The current Leafs spend as much as every other team can and that wasn't always the case.

You just keep saying he's overrated because "he only improved the team and that's what GM's do".

That's not an argument or reasoning why...

The argument from the other side is that no GM could possibly take where the Leafs were when Burke took over and so completely overhaul a team the way he did, especially given the sort of pressure that the Leafs have relative to other teams.

From November 29th, 2008 to January 9th, 2013 Burke overhauled the team in a way very few GM's could.

That's a period of roughly 37 months, or just over 3 years.
 

jimmycarter

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Two of the players you've mentioned in Toews and Bergeron don't have as much individual talent as Kessel, But make up for it in other areas. What Kessel does for a team is just as important.

yeah....no. toews does it all and toews just wins. kessel does one thing...albeit he does it well.
 

Drew311

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You just keep saying he's overrated because "he only improved the team and that's what GM's do".

That's not an argument or reasoning why...

The argument from the other side is that no GM could possibly take where the Leafs were when Burke took over and so completely overhaul a team the way he did, especially given the sort of pressure that the Leafs have relative to other teams.

From November 29th, 2008 to January 9th, 2013 Burke overhauled the team in a way very few GM's could.

That's a period of roughly 37 months, or just over 3 years.

Plus Burke was able to improve the Leafs more in 3-year window than other GM's did in a 5 or 6-year time frame. How about we start throwing names like Snow, Lowe, Rutherford and Howson into the ring. Let's not act like these GM's would have been able to improve the Leafs as much as Burke did in such a small window.
 

BlueBaron

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yeah....no. toews does it all and toews just wins. kessel does one thing...albeit he does it well.

Which one thing is that ? Scoring goals ? Making great plays ? Opening up the ice for everyone else on his line ? He also does his best at playing defense and has improved greatly so I am going to guess you have never seen him play and just use cliche's as arguments to bring him down for the sake of being negative.
 

The Apologist

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Fletcher is over 20 years ago, and we know all about Ballard's Game of Thrones, or is it Games of Guess who's in the bag?

Fletcher's team is still better and no he didn't have an unlimited budget for the youngsters who weren't around. Ballard was, in addition to his corruption, also cheap.

Again did I say Burke was bad?

I just think he's over rated, more an average GM. Feaster won a Cup just like Burke did.

The current Leafs spend as much as every other team can and that wasn't always the case.
You're right, it wasn't. It used to be much more
 

Gary Nylund

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The Ballard era was marked with many deals that were all about money and nothing to with hockey.

Indeed. I remember once when he had fired the coach without having hired a replacement yet, he was asked what he was looking for in the next coach. His answer was something like "someone who will work for less than 50K a year".

Sure enough, he hired John Brophy for 40K or whatever per year and of course he got what he paid for.

Those were the days ...

Burke did such an awesome job. I have no idea how anyone can look at the team before/after Burke and not see that. No idea whatsoever.
 

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