Continuous Rebuilders. How about trying to win?

[The Blue Devil]

You just keep saying he's overrated because "he only improved the team and that's what GM's do".

That's not an argument or reasoning why...

The argument from the other side is that no GM could possibly take where the Leafs were when Burke took over and so completely overhaul a team the way he did, especially given the sort of pressure that the Leafs have relative to other teams.

From November 29th, 2008 to January 9th, 2013 Burke overhauled the team in a way very few GM's could.

That's a period of roughly 37 months, or just over 3 years.

You can subtract about 4 months from that because of the lockout.

 

[indigobuffalo]

This thread seems to have lost it's way...

RE: OP's comment, I would say that an NHL roster is never something that is static and you cannot ever say that "it's done" being tinkered with. That said, there's also the issue of Kenny Rogers. You have to know when to stop tinkering on a specific area, but can't assume the issue is solved forever.

Now that the Leafs are a playoff team, they showed what they could do last season against Boston. They fell a little short, lacked the mental fortitude of a champion to get that little bit further.

Nonis (and new boss Leiweke) wasn't(weren't) a big fan of Reimer, so Nonis acquired Bernier. While no guarantee to provide greater playoff success, Nonis at least feels like it's an upgrade.

Likewise, the Leafs lacked in mental fortitude and the "knowing-what-it-takes-to-win" mentality. Burke had tried to address this when he acquired Versteeg, among others, but that didn't pan out.

Nonis came back at, and got Bolland, who to his credit has multiple accolades including two SC rings. And Bolland's Cup wins featured some real battles in the post-season that saw major attrition and took real heart to win, not least of all was the brutal finish of the exact team that flummoxed the Leafs in the post-season, the Bruins.

Those changes aside, the Leafs haven't solved every possible aspect of the team's woes.

Arguably, there are still concerns around C depth, because injuries can and will happen (and have happened).

And there are also concerns over the quality of the defensive corps.

Just because the Leafs are "in the playoffs" doesn't mean that everything should be kept as is. And likewise, that also means that the Leafs should abandon their focus on the future ahead of them.

The Leafs' prospect pool is still relatively weak. In about 4 years' time, the Leafs will need to have plans in place to replace key players in the current roster, such as Lupul, JvR, Kessel, Bozak, Phaneuf. If by that time, the replacements aren't already in the system, then the Leafs probably won't have those players developped enough to seamlessly insert them into the gradual holes that pop-up in the roster over time.

To a degree, that means that the current group of prospects are too old, in a sense, because they won't be utilized by the time their ELC's/RFA years are up. So there needs to be a plan in place to recycle these prospects, and upgrade as much as possible in the process.

So trade proposals that convert a player with current value to the club, like Matt Finn, into futures that give us another roll of the dice, will inevitably have to happen, because otherwise it's just a wasted asset. The timeline for these players has to be calculated effectively.

Another issue that further complicates this is that roles affect development, and consequently this affects how much time the Leafs have to find a replacement.

A player like JvR, for example, who is effective in front of the net and has the strength to be good along the boards, would take significantly more time to develop a replacement in the system than a player like Lupul who is more of a shooter type.

So even though Lupes and JvR are under contract for the same length of time, the Leafs brass have to have a plan in place earlier to replace JvR than they do Lupul. (And of course, if Lupul and/or JvR are still playing at the same level in 4 years when they're up for a new contract, the "replacement" can be them, but then what to do with the assets that would've replaced them if they weren't?).

The process of building a team is like sculpting the flow of a river. If you spend all your time just running with the current without paying attention to where you're headed, pretty soon you'll be way out to sea.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

You can subtract about 4 months from that because of the lockout.

Not to mention that due to the timing of his hiring, he couldn't do much in terms of adding his own players until ~7 months later.

 

[BlueBaron]

This thread seems to have lost it's way...

RE: OP's comment, I would say that an NHL roster is never something that is static and you cannot ever say that "it's done" being tinkered with. That said, there's also the issue of Kenny Rogers. You have to know when to stop tinkering on a specific area, but can't assume the issue is solved forever.

Now that the Leafs are a playoff team, they showed what they could do last season against Boston. They fell a little short, lacked the mental fortitude of a champion to get that little bit further.

Nonis (and new boss Leiweke) wasn't(weren't) a big fan of Reimer, so Nonis acquired Bernier. While no guarantee to provide greater playoff success, Nonis at least feels like it's an upgrade.

Likewise, the Leafs lacked in mental fortitude and the "knowing-what-it-takes-to-win" mentality. Burke had tried to address this when he acquired Versteeg, among others, but that didn't pan out.

Nonis came back at, and got Bolland, who to his credit has multiple accolades including two SC rings. And Bolland's Cup wins featured some real battles in the post-season that saw major attrition and took real heart to win, not least of all was the brutal finish of the exact team that flummoxed the Leafs in the post-season, the Bruins.

Those changes aside, the Leafs haven't solved every possible aspect of the team's woes.

Arguably, there are still concerns around C depth, because injuries can and will happen (and have happened).

And there are also concerns over the quality of the defensive corps.

Just because the Leafs are "in the playoffs" doesn't mean that everything should be kept as is. And likewise, that also means that the Leafs should abandon their focus on the future ahead of them.

The Leafs' prospect pool is still relatively weak. In about 4 years' time, the Leafs will need to have plans in place to replace key players in the current roster, such as Lupul, JvR, Kessel, Bozak, Phaneuf. If by that time, the replacements aren't already in the system, then the Leafs probably won't have those players developped enough to seamlessly insert them into the gradual holes that pop-up in the roster over time.

To a degree, that means that the current group of prospects are too old, in a sense, because they won't be utilized by the time their ELC's/RFA years are up. So there needs to be a plan in place to recycle these prospects, and upgrade as much as possible in the process.

So trade proposals that convert a player with current value to the club, like Matt Finn, into futures that give us another roll of the dice, will inevitably have to happen, because otherwise it's just a wasted asset. The timeline for these players has to be calculated effectively.

Another issue that further complicates this is that roles affect development, and consequently this affects how much time the Leafs have to find a replacement.

A player like JvR, for example, who is effective in front of the net and has the strength to be good along the boards, would take significantly more time to develop a replacement in the system than a player like Lupul who is more of a shooter type.

So even though Lupes and JvR are under contract for the same length of time, the Leafs brass have to have a plan in place earlier to replace JvR than they do Lupul. (And of course, if Lupul and/or JvR are still playing at the same level in 4 years when they're up for a new contract, the "replacement" can be them, but then what to do with the assets that would've replaced them if they weren't?).

The process of building a team is like sculpting the flow of a river. If you spend all your time just running with the current without paying attention to where you're headed, pretty soon you'll be way out to sea.

4 years ? last I checked kessel is signed for 8 and dion 7, bozak and JVr will still be in their primes and could be retained, but I will give you Lupul.

 

[member 147413]

I think it's more about moving players who don't have a future with the team after the year...

I don't see Raymond as a permanent solution, he was more of a cheap fill in while our prospects develop, I would rather obtain younger players or picks for our players that won't be returning and don't have significant impact on the team.

As well, in regards to our center position, we're overloaded with 2nd/3rd line Centers and it would be silly to keep them all, so a better solution would be to receive value for them instead of having them walk...

Our UFA+RFA list

UFA

Bolland (Good player, think he has a place on the team as 3C)
Kulemin (Love the guy, may fall victim to bottom 6th prospect depth, 3RW)
Mcclement (Important 4C, think he stays)
Raymond (Short term solution, be best to acquire value for him, 3LW)
Bodie (Possible 4RW if Orr is traded)
Smith (Gone, club hopper)
Ranger (Tough one, I think he signs with Ottawa or Edmonton)
Staubitz (Gone)
Smithson (Gone)
Lasch (Gone)
MacIntyre (Marlies Starter unless they believe in Gibson and Sparks)

RFA

Ashton (Will be fighting with D`Amigo for 3LW, loser battling for McLaren's spot)
Franson (Need a RHD, but has negotiating issues, inconsistent play, think he's gone)
Gardiner (Re-signed or traded)
Reimer (Likely traded)
Holland (Wins a spot with the Leafs, traded or Marlies 1C)
D'Amigo (re: Ashton)
Ryan (re-signed for Marlies or traded)
Abbott (Wins a spot with Leafs or re-signed for Marlies)
Brennan (Re-signed for Leafs or traded)
Abney (Gone)
Devane (Could steal 4LW or resigned for Marlies)
Kozun (Small trade piece or walks)


All my opinion, take it for what its worth.

 

[jimmycarter]

Which one thing is that ? Scoring goals ? Making great plays ? Opening up the ice for everyone else on his line ? He also does his best at playing defense and has improved greatly so I am going to guess you have never seen him play and just use cliche's as arguments to bring him down for the sake of being negative.

He's in the OV category for me with the offensive superstars, but he'll never be on Crosby, Toews or Bergeron's level, and those elite two way guys are the guys you win with and those are the guys you have to get through the draft.

 

[ULF_55]

He's in the OV category for me with the offensive superstars, but he'll never be on Crosby, Toews or Bergeron's level, and those elite two way guys are the guys you win with and those are the guys you have to get through the draft.

To be fair, when you don't have the supporting cast you play an offensive game to make up for your deficiencies.

In time the may get those pieces. Gauthier could be their Bergeron.