Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[HFpapi]

he can have 2000 points but if he doesnt win 2 stanley cups minamum i have hard time putting him as 2nd best all time....

I've agreed he does indeed need 1 cup but absolutely not 2.

Mario and Orr both won only two and they did so in 21/26 team leagues with no salary cap.

Imagine trying to fit Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Fuhr + good supporting depth or Lemieux, Jagr, Recchi, Francis, Coffey, Murphy, Barrasso, Stevens, Mullen, Trottier under a salary cap.

 

[Video Nasty]

I don't agree with the need for 1 cup because that is too simple of an analysis. The most important factor to me is performance.

I'll use an example:

Assume the Oilers lose in the Stanley Cup finals this year and McDavid had 45 points in 20 games +15. I would consider that a legendary performance (assuming he was also great in the finals)

Now on the flip side let's imagine the Oilers win the Cup this year and McDavid has 18 points in 20 games -2. I honestly think that is worse for his legacy. Most people can't wrap their minds around the fact that you can be great and lose and you can also be average and win.

No doubt about it. Let’s also not forget that McDavid is not allowed to win his first Cup without also winning the Conn Smythe ala Crosby’s first Cup. The detractors allowed it for him, but the insane double standard will be invoked should that happen (doubtful; this team is not winning a Cup if he’s invisible in the Finals).

I think it has something to do with McDavid being held to a higher standard since he’s better than Crosby ever was.

It's a very rare bird that is the undisputed league's best goal scorer AND playmaker, like Lemieux and Gretzky were for years and years each. Even Crosby never reached that level with Ovechkin in his era.

"Even Crosby"...more like "Especially Crosby"

Ovechkin had nothing to do with it. Crosby led the league twice. He was top 10 in goals two other times. He is currently working on just the third 40 goal season of his career. He's led the league in assists once.

He was 18th and 8th in assists the two times he led the league in goals.

The other four times he was 2nd or 3rd in assists, he was 16th, 20th, could have been about 15th in 2012-2013, and 20th in goals.

Compared to McDavid who outright led the league in goals and assists last season. Has four 40+ goal campaigns. Is putting the finishing touches on his fourth time leading the league in assists and has been runner up three other times. He has finished in the top 10 in goals six seasons in a row up until this season (6, 10, 10, 2, 7, 1) while being 1, 3 (behind the two leaders who had 68 to his 67), 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 in assists.

McDavid has already surpassed Crosby on a dual threat level. Crosby being in the same league as Ovechkin during his best years had zero to do with his failure to do this.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

No doubt about it. Let’s also not forget that McDavid is not allowed to win his first Cup without also winning the Conn Smythe ala Crosby’s first Cup. The detractors allowed it for him, but the insane double standard will be invoked should that happen (doubtful; this team is not winning a Cup if he’s invisible in the Finals).

I think it has something to do with McDavid being held to a higher standard since he’s better than Crosby ever was.



"Even Crosby"...more like "Especially Crosby"

Ovechkin had nothing to do with it. Crosby led the league twice. He was top 10 in goals two other times. He is currently working on just the third 40 goal season of his career. He's led the league in assists once.

He was 18th and 8th in assists the two times he led the league in goals.

The other four times he was 2nd or 3rd in assists, he was 16th, 20th, could have been about 15th in 2012-2013, and 20th in goals.

Compared to McDavid who outright led the league in goals and assists last season. Has four 40+ goal campaigns. Is putting the finishing touches on his fourth time leading the league in assists and has been runner up three other times. He has finished in the top 10 in goals six seasons in a row up until this season (6, 10, 10, 2, 7, 1) while being 1, 3 (behind the two leaders who had 68 to his 67), 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 in assists.

McDavid has already surpassed Crosby on a dual threat level. Crosby being in the same league as Ovechkin during his best years had zero to do with his failure to do this.

Here's an old thread about "balanced" scorers.

From expansion onwards, the only players who were in the top five in goals and assists in the same season, more than once, were Gretzky (8x), Esposito (8x), Lemieux (5x), Jagr (5x), Lafleur (5x), Dionne (5x), Draisaitl (3x), Trottier (2x), and McDavid (2x).

If that's too low of a standard, and we limit it to placing in the top three in goals and assists in the same season - from expansion onward, we just have Esposito (6x), Gretzky (5x), Lemieux (4x), Jagr (4x), Lafleur (4x), Dionne (3x) and McDavid (2x).

 

[Bounces R Way]

I dunno. Maybe he does. But he's got to win some Stanley Cups to be properly considered. This is a team sport, if your team doesn't win it all then all those individual awards are just mantle pieces.

 

[paracord]

No doubt about it. Let’s also not forget that McDavid is not allowed to win his first Cup without also winning the Conn Smythe ala Crosby’s first Cup. The detractors allowed it for him, but the insane double standard will be invoked should that happen (doubtful; this team is not winning a Cup if he’s invisible in the Finals).

I think it has something to do with McDavid being held to a higher standard since he’s better than Crosby ever was.



"Even Crosby"...more like "Especially Crosby"

Ovechkin had nothing to do with it. Crosby led the league twice. He was top 10 in goals two other times. He is currently working on just the third 40 goal season of his career. He's led the league in assists once.

He was 18th and 8th in assists the two times he led the league in goals.

The other four times he was 2nd or 3rd in assists, he was 16th, 20th, could have been about 15th in 2012-2013, and 20th in goals.

Compared to McDavid who outright led the league in goals and assists last season. Has four 40+ goal campaigns. Is putting the finishing touches on his fourth time leading the league in assists and has been runner up three other times. He has finished in the top 10 in goals six seasons in a row up until this season (6, 10, 10, 2, 7, 1) while being 1, 3 (behind the two leaders who had 68 to his 67), 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 in assists.

McDavid has already surpassed Crosby on a dual threat level. Crosby being in the same league as Ovechkin during his best years had zero to do with his failure to do this.

The point is the following: Sidney Crosby was the best player of his generation and generally considered the best player in the world for a long time....like more than a decade. He's easily a top 10 player of all time and some would say top five. He has accolades galore.

And EVEN HE was not considered the best playmaker AND goal scorer during his run.

McDavid now holds the title of "best in the world" and has for a few years now, taking that title from Crosby. And he certainly is NOT the best goal scorer in the NHL. (Even old man Crosby is going to pretty easily score more goals than McDavid this year).

My point was that even these two very highly skilled, highly regarded players did not hold this dual threat title the way Lemieux and Gretzky did. It's exceptionally rare.

 

[paracord]

Selanne and Tkachuk scored more goals than Lemieux in '97, however Lemieux played less games. Yes, Lemieux scored 3 more goals than Jagr, in an extra 13 games. I gave Lemieux the benefit by taking into account gpg as well in previous years, and didn't just look at raw numbers. It was only fair I extended that curtesy to other players.

Which is more important, a players overall body of work, or their talent and potential when evaluating the top players. If you care more about talent, why is Crosby ahead of Jagr, Bossy, and Lafleur in your ranking.

If McDavid were to win the Art Ross, Cup, and Smythe this year, he's already surpassed Crosby, he won't need to wait another 7 years.

Crosby is ahead of Jagr, Bossy, and Lafleur because he is BETTER THAN ALL OF THEM.

I watched pretty much all of Jagr's games and am familiar with the other two.

Jagr may have a little more pure offensive talent than Crosby, especially in flashy goal scoring ability, but he is in no way the complete, all around player that Crosby is. Crosby is also way ahead of Jagr in points per game....I know that number will drop if he plays as many games as Jagr, but I wouldn't bet on it dropping below Jagr's.

Being the best "all around" player takes quite a bit of "talent." Crosby is going to get 600 goals and 1000 assists. His pure stats aren't too shabby either.

 

[ManofSteel55]

He's not passing Lemieux or Orr without winning at least 1 Cup.

He'll get one. Maybe more.

He's gonna have to pull a Bourque eventually.
Then that team can raise his jersey to the rafters too.


He stopped shooting completely this year. And it's pissed off the entire Oiler fanbase.

Pissed off the fanbase enough to make us question if he ever recovered from his early season injury.

 

[WalterLundy]

If Lemieux played 84-85 to 92-93 in 2016-2024 (first 9 years)

84-85 (15-16):
73 GP: 30 G, 39 A, 69 PTS (0.95 PPG)
(47 EVP, 22 PPP, 0 SHP)
(23 EVG, 7 PPG, 25 EVA, 14 PPA)

85-86 (16-17):
79 GP: 33 G, 60 A, 93 PTS (1.18 PPG)
(56 EVP, 37 PPP, 0 SHP)
(23 EVG, 10 PPG, 33 EVA, 27 PPA)

86-87 (17-18):
63 GP: 43 G, 41 A, 84 PTS (1.33 PPG)
(58 EVP, 26 PPP, 0 SHP)
(30 EVG, 13 PPG, 29 EVA, 12 PPA)

87-88 (18-19):
77 GP: 53 G, 67 A, 120 PTS (1.56 PPG)
(70 EVP, 42 PPP, 8 SHP)
(36 EVG, 11 PPG, 6 SHG, 34 EVA, 31 PPA, 2 SHA)

88-89 (19-20):
76 GP: 63 G, 85 A, 148 PTS (1.95 PPG)
(92 EVP, 45 PPP, 11 SHP)
(37 EVG, 18 PPG, 8 SHG, 55 EVA, 27 PPA, 3 SHA)

89-90 (20-21):
59 GP: 34 G, 58 A, 92 PTS (1.56 PPG)
(61 EVP, 29 PPP, 2 SHP)
(24 EVG, 8 PPG, 2 SHG, 37 EVA, 21 PPA, 0 SHA)

90-91 (21-22):
26 GP: 17 G, 24 A, 41 PTS (1.58 PPG)
(31 EVP, 9 PPP, 1 SHP)
(12 EVG, 4 PPG, 1 SHG, 19 EVA, 5 PPA, 0 SHA)

91-92 (22-23):
64 GP: 39 G, 74 A, 113 PTS (1.77 PPG)
(75 EVP, 31 PPP, 7 SHP)
(28 EVG, 8 PPG, 3 SHG, 47 EVA, 23 PPA, 4 SHA)

92-93 (23-24):
60 GP: 59 G, 73 A, 132 PTS (2.2 PPG)
(93 EVP, 34 PPP, 5 SHP)
(46 EVG, 10 PPG, 3 SHG, 47 EVA, 24 PPA, 2 SHA)

Actual totals (85-93):
577 GP: 477 G, 697 A, 1174 PTS (2.03 PPG)

Adjusted to ‘16-‘24 totals:
577 GP: 371 G, 521 A, 892 PTS (1.55 PPG)
(583 EVP, 275 PPP, 34 SHP)



2015-16 to 2023-24 NHL leaders:
Points: (Top 5)
Connor McDavid: 976
Mario Lemieux: 892
Leon Draisaitl: 834
Nathan MacKinnon: 785
Nikita Kucherov: 773

Points per game: (Top 5):
Mario Lemieux: 1.55
Connor McDavid: 1.53
Nikita Kucherov: 1.33
Leon Draisaitl: 1.24
Nathan MacKinnon: 1.23

Goals: (Top 5):
Alex Ovechkin: 373
Mario Lemieux: 371
Auston Matthews: 361
Leon Draisaitl: 343
David Pastrnak: 336

Goals per game: (Top 5):
Auston Matthews: 0.65
Mario Lemieux: 0.64
Alex Ovechkin: 0.57
David Pastrnak: 0.54
Connor McDavid: 0.52

Assists: (Top 5):
Connor McDavid: 644
Mario Lemieux: 521
Artemi Panarin: 509
Nikita Kucherov: 493
Nathan MacKinnon: 492

Assists per game (Top 5):
Connor McDavid: 1.01
Mario Lemieux: 0.90
Nikita Kucherov: 0.85
Nathan MacKinnon: 0.77
Mitch Marner: 0.77



Even strength points: (Top 5):
Connor McDavid: 628
Mario Lemieux: 583
Artemi Panarin: 535
Leon Draisaitl: 529
Nathan MacKinnon: 521



Even strength points per game: (Top 5):
Mario Lemieux: 1.01
Connor McDavid: 0.98
Auston Matthews: 0.84
Nikita Kucherov: 0.82
Nathan MacKinnon: 0.82

Power play points: (Top 5):
Connor McDavid: 331
Nikita Kucherov: 293
Leon Draisaitl: 292
Mario Lemieux: 275
Nathan MacKinnon: 260



Power play points per game (Top 5):
Connor McDavid: 0.52
Nikita Kucherov: 0.50
Mario Lemieux: 0.48
Leon Draisaitl: 0.43
Steven Stamkos: 0.42

Short handed points (Top 5):
Brad Marchand: 37
Jean-Gabriel Pageau: 34
Mario Lemieux: 34
Patrice Bergeron: 26
Mika Zibanejad: 25

Short handed points per game (Top 5):
Simon Holmstrom: 0.06
Brad Marchand: 0.06
Mario Lemieux: 0.06
Jean-Gabriel Pageau: 0.05
Michael Grabner: 0.05

Year by year finishes:

(84-85) 2015-16: 18th in points, 19th in goals, 32nd in assists, 10th in points per game

(85-86) 2016-17: 2nd in points, 15th in goals, 3rd in assists, 3rd in points per game
(86-87) 2017-18: 16th in points, 3rd in goals, 59th in assists, T-1st in points per game

(87-88) 2018-19: 2nd in points, 1st in goals, 5th in assists, 2nd in points per game

(88-89) 2019-20: 1st in points, 1st in goals, 1st in assists, 1st in points per game

(89-90) 2020-21: 2nd in points, 3rd in goals, 2nd in assists, 2nd in points per game

(90-91) 2021-22: only played 26 games. Does not qualify for any awards or rankings.

(91-92) 2022-23: T-3rd in points, 20th in goals, 5th in assists, 2nd in points per game

*(92-93) 2023-24: 1st in points (three pacing above so could be 4th), T-1st in goals, 4th in assists, 1st in points per game

If he were playing now the awards/rankings he’d have won:

2 Rocket Richard (2019, 2020)
1 Art Ross (2020)
3X PPG leader (2018, 2020, 2024)
4X GPG leader (2018, 2019, 2020, 2024)
2X APG leader (2020, 2023)

Vs McDavid’s trophy case and rankings:

1 Rocket Richard (2023)
3 Hart (2017, 2021, 2023)
4 Ted Lindsay (2017, 2018, 2021, 2023)
5 Art Ross (2017, 2018, 2021, 2022, 2023)
5X PPG leader (2017, 2018, 2021, 2022, 2023)
1X GPG leader (2023)
3X APG leader (2017, 2021, 2024)


So for the first 9 years (age 19-27 for both) McDavid beats Lemieux in awards and totals for points and assists. Points per game is 1.55 to 1.53 for Lemieux. Razor tight. 127 to 125 per 82 GP. Assists per game McDavid has while Lemieux is higher for goals per game (Matthews first).

 

[cupface52]

Crosby is ahead of Jagr, Bossy, and Lafleur because he is BETTER THAN ALL OF THEM.

I watched pretty much all of Jagr's games and am familiar with the other two.

Jagr may have a little more pure offensive talent than Crosby, especially in flashy goal scoring ability, but he is in no way the complete, all around player that Crosby is. Crosby is also way ahead of Jagr in points per game....I know that number will drop if he plays as many games as Jagr, but I wouldn't bet on it dropping below Jagr's.

Being the best "all around" player takes quite a bit of "talent." Crosby is going to get 600 goals and 1000 assists. His pure stats aren't too shabby either.

He's had a better career, but I'll take their 6 year peak over Crosby's any day. Just like Lemieux has a better peak than McDavid, but when all is said and done, McDavid's career might overtake Lemieux. If Jagr wasn't such a primadonna throughout most of his career, he'd be sitting comfortably at #5.

And Crosby was never a stalwart two-way player in the beginning of his career, that's some revisionist history. Just like Yzerman, after his offense dipped, his defense improved.

 

[Despote]

And Crosby was never a stalwart two-way player in the beginning of his career, that's some revisionist history. Just like Yzerman, after his offense dipped, his defense improved.

To be fair his two-way game is mostly reputation even now. He's not a good defensive player at all.

 

[NoName]

Could happen; his stats are pretty amazing. But there are al lot of legends competing for the silver medal behind Gretzky, and McDavid will need to compile more team success (ie. Stanley Cups) to establish himself in that conversation.

 

[Goose]

He’s not doing relative to peers what Howe did either

I feel like the argument for Howe is closer. Also, personally speaking, I don’t value Howe’s dominance in an era with so few teams and so much of the talent pool gone or stunted due to WWII.

Obviously an incredible talent and in the conversation of top players of all time, I just think I can buy the argument of McDavid sliding in above him more so than I can Lemieux or Orr.

But again, I also think comparing across eras in general is a bit of a fool’s errand. (One I’m engaging in myself.)

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Win a Cup + Conn Smythe and Olympic Gold or Bust

Olympics are a joke

 

[authentic]

I feel like the argument for Howe is closer. Also, personally speaking, I don’t value Howe’s dominance in an era with so few teams and so much of the talent pool gone or stunted due to WWII.

Obviously an incredible talent and in the conversation of top players of all time, I just think I can buy the argument of McDavid sliding in above him more so than I can Lemieux or Orr.

But again, I also think comparing across eras in general is a bit of a fool’s errand. (One I’m engaging in myself.)

Well look 4 posts above yours, WalterLundy has shown using the best adjusted points metric available (adjusting ES, PP and SH points separately) that their first 9 seasons are basically a coin flip with McDavid coming out on top in total points, 5x the Art Ross trophies and even leading in points per game twice more. Lemieux has the one peak season comfortably better, but other than that it objectively looks like you could have McDavid ranked ahead after their first 9 seasons.

 

[OVO16]

I dont see him winning a cup in his career if he stays in Edmonton, so most likely yeah

 

[The Abusement Park]

New to sports?


He has to win one, in Edmonton, as the primary driver. Everyone before him did it, and everyone after will have to do it. Guy needs to commit to winning and demand that his teammates do as well. I don't see that from him, nor do I hear that about him.

I mean Bourque didn't do it in Boston but is still considered clear top 5 dman of all time and clear all time great of the game.

 

[Givememoneyback]

Still probably take Lemieux and Orr.

 

[Goose]

Well look 4 posts above yours, WalterLundy has shown using the best adjusted points metric available (adjusting ES, PP and SH points separately) that their first 9 seasons are basically a coin flip with McDavid coming out on top in total points, 5x the Art Ross trophies and even leading in points per game twice more. Lemieux has the one peak season comfortably better, but other than that it objectively looks like you could have McDavid ranked ahead after their first 9 seasons.

I agree it's a reasonable argument, and I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't personally slot McDavid ahead at this point.

Adjust point metrics are synthetic stats, and while I agree they have value and add credibility to arguments, they don't in of themselves conclude an argument one way or another.

It's also not something I've invested a ton of time into examining, I'm not going to deconstruct the formulas for era-adjusted points to investigate how much I agree/disagree, I'm happy to admit I could be wrong on this type of thing.

 

[Spirits]

I mean Bourque didn't do it in Boston but is still considered clear top 5 dman of all time and clear all time great of the game.

And no one is trying to say Ray is a top 5 all-time player. Let's make sure we are following along. Are you saying that McDavid doesn't need to win a cup in Edmonton? If he gets carried in 5 years by New Jersey is that going to work?

 

[The Abusement Park]

And no one is trying to say Ray is a top 5 all-time player. Let's make sure we are following along. Are you saying that McDavid doesn't need to win a cup in Edmonton? If he gets carried in 5 years by New Jersey is that going to work?

I mean he's not horribly far off top 5 ever? I mean he's most likely top 10. And even then winning a cup now is a completely different task than it was for all the guys who are in the top 5. A strict cap is a major obstacle that Gretzky, Mario, etc never faced.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

All it takes is one goon and it’s all over. That’s why these threads should be saved until the backend of their career.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

I dont see him winning a cup in his career if he stays in Edmonton, so most likely yeah

Imagine having all that world class talent and you have to play in one of the dirtiest cities in North America as a reward.

Lemieux, Orr, Gretz, Yzerman, Crosby, Jagr, Hasek, Roy….I would take any one of these guys over McDavid in the playoffs.

 

[JTB1974]

Not a single person is suggesting McDavid has even the slightest chance of eclipsing Gretzky. The big 4 isn't really the big 4, rather it's Gretzky and the big 3.

When was Lemieux the best anything for 15 years. He led the league in goal scoring 3 times. Did Lemieux have the talent and potential? Absolutely, but careers aren't based off of talent and potential. If you only want to look at talent and potential, Lafleur, Bossy, and Jagr would be bonafide top 10 players ranked #5,6,7.

In the Hockey world it's very rare for a player to be considered a top 5 player for a 5 year stretch, let alone the best during that time. McDavid has been a top 2 player for a stretch of what will be 8 years. His prime/peak has already eclipsed every single player except for Gretzky and the big 3.

Any time you are better than Prime Gretzky in any season it's a huge accomplishment. Mario had back to back seasons in 87-88 and 88-89 where he was the best player in the world. He had 70 goals and 98 assists for 168 points in 87-88 and 85 goals and 114 assists for 199 points in 88-89. He had another season where he had 160 points in just 60 games. That season he scored 69 goals in 60 games.

 

[JTB1974]

Keep in mind, Both Gretzky and Lemieux averaged more PPG in their career than McDavid currently and that includes all those years Gretzky and Lemieux were not in their prime that brought their PPG average down. Both Mario and Wayne averaged over 2 PPG in their 1st 12 seasons. McDavid has yet to have a single season where he averaged over 2 PPG. Came close in 20/21 and last season.

 

[Hank Plank]

Olympics are a joke

Let me guess you watched Crosby beat your team.