Proposal: Colorado - Columbus

[cgf]

We have been using Jones and Werenski on the powerplay since they joined the team, so Savard has been stuck with a 2nd pair/PK role. And yes, Jack Johnson was absurdly overused here.

It still stands that Savard is a high quality 2nd pairing defenseman that can play in all situations.

Which is why he's of interest to Avs fans to stabilize things behind Makar, but a high-quality middle pairing guy still isn't a top pairing guy or #2. Hjalmarsson never supplanted Seabrook for a reason and he was as high-quality as 2nd pairing blueliners get...at least before age caught up with those cup-winning Hawks...ya know?

Either way, I think Murray is the one that would make the most sense for us to nab if our medical staff isn't scared off. So what kind of futures deal are we thinking? @Viqsi said that you need forward prospects more than blueliners, though I dunno if you need more "just-solid" forward prospects or home run swings...cause from where I sit it looks like just a game-breaker or two, that your young core is missing.

Maybe something like Ranta/Kaut/Kovalenko + a 1st if Murray is fit this postseason, that drops if he misses the playoffs & we're forced to hope Makar can keep dragging Graves to effectiveness?

 

[Hasbro]

Probably mostly option #2, since that involves something of a retool-on-the-fly with young guys coming in.

Given the events of last year kind of the feeling I got.

​

 

[Viqsi]

@Viqsi I'd actually prefer Murray over Savard to pair with Makar. What would the ask be for Murray straight up? Rosen and a 1st?

Less Rosen, more someone like Newhook. We really don't need LD prospects at all. (And if it is Newhook, I imagine we'd have conditions on that 1st based on how many games Murray manages to play over there or something.)

* * *​

In that case, can you explain why Savard was 4th in ice time for defencemen for the two years prior to this one, and 3rd behind Jack Johnson the year before that, before Seth Jones was even on the team?

There's this phenomenon in which players can sometimes improve over time. That and Murray, when he actually plays, is a better all-around guy. And JJ was overused for everything because he had the endurance of a mountain.

* * *​

Which is why he's of interest to Avs fans to stabilize things behind Makar, but a high-quality middle pairing guy still isn't a top pairing guy or #2. Hjalmarsson never supplanted Seabrook for a reason and he was as high-quality as 2nd pairing blueliners get...at least before age caught up with those cup-winning Hawks...ya know?

Either way, I think Murray is the one that would make the most sense for us to nab if our medical staff isn't scared off. So what kind of futures deal are we thinking? @Viqsi said that you need forward prospects more than blueliners, though I dunno if you need more "just-solid" forward prospects or home run swings...cause from where I sit it looks like just a game-breaker or two, that your young core is missing.

Maybe something like Ranta/Kaut/Kovalenko + a 1st if Murray is fit this postseason, that drops if he misses the playoffs & we're forced to hope Makar can keep dragging Graves to effectiveness?

That could work. I don't know all those guys all that well (I only know some tidbits about Ranta 'cause Minnesota). But from what I know of him at least, that's definitely workable. I can only assume the other guys are at least in a similar ballpark.

Home-run swings would be more helpful, since we should have "just solid" pretty locked up for the foreseeable future. "Just solid" might be acceptable for a C, potentially, since there's less depth there. A few of the youngsters we're playing right now are looking like if they don't get the home run they'll at least be decent depth, so that's a bit of a relief. But they're all wingers and D, so...

EDIT: and for the record, the Hjalmarsson comparison is a really good one.

 

[JoemAvs]

Less Rosen, more someone like Newhook. We really don't need LD prospects at all. (And if it is Newhook, I imagine we'd have conditions on that 1st based on how many games Murray manages to play over there or something.)

* * *​

There's this phenomenon in which players can sometimes improve over time. That and Murray, when he actually plays, is a better all-around guy. And JJ was overused for everything because he had the endurance of a mountain.

* * *​

That could work. I don't know all those guys all that well (I only know some tidbits about Ranta 'cause Minnesota). But from what I know of him at least, that's definitely workable. I can only assume the other guys are at least in a similar ballpark.

Home-run swings would be more helpful, since we should have "just solid" pretty locked up for the foreseeable future. "Just solid" might be acceptable for a C, potentially, since there's less depth there. A few of the youngsters we're playing right now are looking like if they don't get the home run they'll at least be decent depth, so that's a bit of a relief. But they're all wingers and D, so...

EDIT: and for the record, the Hjalmarsson comparison is a really good one.

1st + Newhook is just way too steep.
You weren't even willing to offer something like that for Duchene with over 2 years left IIRC when the shoe was somewhat on the other foot.
Murray with his very spotty health record is just not even close to worth that. I would be personally very hesitant to include a prospect like Newhook due to that.

1st+ a decent but not highend prospect is as high as I would go and I don't think thats unreasonable. Would pay a bit more for Savard but ultimately with Byram and Timmins on the doorstep and Makar/Girard/Zadorov/EJ (unfortunately) being here till the expansion draft atleast it does not make much sense to crazily overpay for a D right now.

 

[Viqsi]

1st + Newhook is just way too steep.
You weren't even willing to offer something like that for Duchene with over 2 years left IIRC when the shoe was somewhat on the other foot.
Murray with his very spotty health record is just not even close to worth that. I would be personally very hesitant to include a prospect like Newhook due to that.

Figured as much, which is why I was suggesting conditions on the pick in that case. But if that's a no-go, that's understandable.

1st+ a decent but not highend prospect is as high as I would go and I don't think thats unreasonable. Would pay a bit more for Savard but ultimately with Byram and Timmins on the doorstep and Makar/Girard/Zadorov/EJ (unfortunately) being here till the expansion draft atleast it does not make much sense to crazily overpay for a D right now.

That's probably fair. We'd want different assets for Savard in any case.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Less Rosen, more someone like Newhook. We really don't need LD prospects at all. (And if it is Newhook, I imagine we'd have conditions on that 1st based on how many games Murray manages to play over there or something.)

* * *​

There's this phenomenon in which players can sometimes improve over time. That and Murray, when he actually plays, is a better all-around guy. And JJ was overused for everything because he had the endurance of a mountain.

* * *​

That could work. I don't know all those guys all that well (I only know some tidbits about Ranta 'cause Minnesota). But from what I know of him at least, that's definitely workable. I can only assume the other guys are at least in a similar ballpark.

Home-run swings would be more helpful, since we should have "just solid" pretty locked up for the foreseeable future. "Just solid" might be acceptable for a C, potentially, since there's less depth there. A few of the youngsters we're playing right now are looking like if they don't get the home run they'll at least be decent depth, so that's a bit of a relief. But they're all wingers and D, so...

EDIT: and for the record, the Hjalmarsson comparison is a really good one.

That’s Lunacy though. Taylor Hall couldn’t even return a Newhook level prospect. I thought the 1st alone for Murray was generous.

 

[Viqsi]

That’s Lunacy though. Taylor Hall couldn’t even return a Newhook level prospect. I thought the 1st alone for Murray was generous.

He's doing that well? Okay. Chalk that up to my not being as good at prospect evaluation as I wish I could be and we can move on.

 

[cgf]

That’s Lunacy though. Taylor Hall couldn’t even return a Newhook level prospect. I thought the 1st alone for Murray was generous.

Yeah, Newhook would be far too rich even with the extra season on Murray's contract...but if Ranta + 1st/2nd (depending on GP) is workable, that would be a move I'd like to see Joe explore by the TDL. Especially if we could snap up Pageau for Jost + 2nd + 3rd, and didn't need that 1st for the forward core.

That could work. I don't know all those guys all that well (I only know some tidbits about Ranta 'cause Minnesota). But from what I know of him at least, that's definitely workable. I can only assume the other guys are at least in a similar ballpark.

Home-run swings would be more helpful, since we should have "just solid" pretty locked up for the foreseeable future. "Just solid" might be acceptable for a C, potentially, since there's less depth there. A few of the youngsters we're playing right now are looking like if they don't get the home run they'll at least be decent depth, so that's a bit of a relief. But they're all wingers and D, so...

EDIT: and for the record, the Hjalmarsson comparison is a really good one.

Personally, I rate Ranta least out of all three. He's probably got the highest ceiling given his tools, but I don't trust our dev. team to get him close to that ceiling unless he's NHL-ready when he leaves college.

Kaut has been having a rough season until the past couple of games; as our AHL team lacks offensive creators & Kaut is a complementary guy for his line, not someone that can create on his own...so his production has been terrible, even on that impotent team. But he was producing well before gassing last season -- after being picked in the middle of the 1st round -- and seems to be finding his form again since the Hall-rumors ended.

So I feel more confident in Kaut providing us with cheap depth (at some point) than I do Ranta. And Kovalenko is in that same middle-6, potential 2nd liner, tier. He's smaller than either of the others, but he's gritty as well as crafty & quick...having some hot-Compher/poor-man's Atkinson to him. Again Ranta's tools give him the greater potential, but again I feel more confident in Kovalenko providing us with cheap depth sooner than later.

That all said, if we're talking about the one who I think has some chance of becoming a legit top 6er and not just a nifty-tweener...aka the most home-run swing of the lot...then Ranta probably is the best fit; provided you trust your dev staff to finish polishing him.

At Center in that same prospect-tier, all we have is Bowers...but he's a 'high-end 3C at best' type; lacking the skill to project as a legit 2C.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

In that case, can you explain why Savard was 4th in ice time for defencemen for the two years prior to this one, and 3rd behind Jack Johnson the year before that, before Seth Jones was even on the team?​

Kadri was 3rd in TOI/G for C for Toronto. 4th due to Marleau being listed as a C on some websites.

So a #3C for a #3/4 D. What's not to like?

 

[Viqsi]

Kadri was 3rd in TOI/G for C for Toronto. 4th due to Marleau being listed as a C on some websites.

So a #3C for a #3/4 D. What's not to like?

You get a cookie.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Kadri was 3rd in TOI/G for C for Toronto. 4th due to Marleau being listed as a C on some websites.

So a #3C for a #3/4 D. What's not to like?

That was for one season. He was 4th in ice time for forwards the previous season. Savard hasn't been higher than 3rd among defensemen on the team in ice time in several years and has frequently been 4th. Presumably you looked at the same statistics I did and understand all of this.

 

[bandwagonesque]

You get a cookie.

The comparison he made was disingenuous and made no sense and you're clearly well-informed enough to know this.

 

[ViD]

The kind of package the Avs could offer for Savard at the deadline:

1st rd pick 2020
2nd rd pick 2021
Calle Rosen

That's taking in consideration that Savard has an extra year left under contract.

If Columbus is out of the play off picture, it’s a Yes from me

 

[Viqsi]

The comparison he made was disingenuous and made no sense

...and thus was a perfect match for declaring Savard to be a #4-5 at best based on ice time on the Jackets.