Line Combos: Colorado Avalanche/Patrick Roy - System Analysis

[cgf]

Does anyone else notice that Colorado makes far too many long stretch passes? Colorado is a lot more effective when making short passes and limiting the amount of possession with the puck. Perfect example was the third goal against Montreal. Grigorenko made two short passes leading up to the goal by Iginla. Why doesn't Colorado do this more often? It'll offer a better chance at not turning the puck over and make teams think twice about playing so aggressively against them.

Might have something to do with this:

The forward low (not always broke out by position) is within 20' of the defensmen when the breakout starts... the center typically starts below the faceoff dots and circles either towards the middle or the same side boards (staying a bit away) depending on handedness. They are obviously instructed to be skating and accelerating at a decent clip when circling. If the defensemen doesn't hit them in stride and/or isn't skating themselves... the gap gets created. It isn't there in the beginning.

The same side winger depending on their handedness and that of the center can be the primary or secondary option depending on how they are running the read progression (lately it has been same-center-off side mostly). If the center doesn't get the puck on the curl the same side winger is supposed to curl to the faceoff dot and open up for a pass, or stay and open for the pass around the top of the circle then chip it to the center skating at the top.

The opposite winger is supposed to clear the zone once one of the other forwards gets the puck. If they don't, that winger is supposed to drift to the middle around the blue line.

The whole thing is predicated on precise timing... when they are trying to break out to the forwards, the defensemen have to make quick decisions and hit the forwards in stride, or get it to the wingers to chip to the forward with speed. If the defensemen just holds and doesn't skate, it takes a 10-15' pass and makes it a 30' pass. There is a reset to the break out that we see far, far too often when the defensemen curl back behind the net and start over... whenever Holden gets the puck this seems to happen.

If the defensemen skates the puck (Barrie is the only one who consistently does this... Bigras does to, but he isn't running the breakout most of the time) it maintains the gaps a lot better and the forwards are there for support and cutting the ice into 4 lanes.

The issues with the breakout stem from the defensemen not being able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time consistently. Watch how little the defensemen skate and read the breakout... it is almost always glide and read which just creates separation. By the time they are ready to pass, the forwards are nearly to the blueline... so the reset happens.

The support between defense partner happens (they swing the puck to each other on resets a lot), but having Bodnarchuk or Holden running the breakout almost never works. Beauch is 50/50, but you'd much rather have EJ running it when he is on his game.

 

[slobbergob]

Well obviously the big change they should make is to be better at breaking out.

No, you guys are right. It's not Roy's fault we have a terrible breakout, or spend 60% of the game in our own zone, get outshot every game, out chanced, and just overall out classed.

He's obviously an amazing tactician. It's because a blueline consisting of EJ (who I've seen many argue is a number 1 defensemen), Barrie, Beauchemin, Holden, Redmond, and recently Bigras, can't pass. Well no, they can't pass and skate at the same time.

I think people are so used to defending their teams that they can't see what's pretty clearly in front of their faces. Roy, for all his strengths, does not have an effective defensive system, which includes breaking out. We look, curiously enough, like a junior team.

 

[cgf]

No, you guys are right. It's not Roy's fault we have a terrible breakout, or spend 60% of the game in our own zone, get outshot every game, out chanced, and just overall out classed.

He's obviously an amazing tactician. It's because a blueline consisting of EJ (who I've seen many argue is a number 1 defensemen), Barrie, Beauchemin, Holden, Redmond, and recently Bigras, can't pass. Well no, they can't pass and skate at the same time.

I think people are so used to defending their teams that they can't see what's pretty clearly in front of their faces. Roy, for all his strengths, does not have an effective defensive system, which includes breaking out. We look, curiously enough, like a junior team.

Please describe Roy's system that's so flawed. I'm curious which one you chose, considering the only system Roy has shown any commitment to is whatever's winning games.

 

[slobbergob]

Please describe Roy's system that's so flawed. I'm curious which one you chose, considering the only system Roy has shown any commitment to is whatever's winning games.

Roy's system that wins games is Varlamov. I love this though. Anytime someone questions aspects of his system, just ask them to name it. It's hard to do.

Roy's system is some kind of Passive 2-3 most of the time. We allow other teams to cycle as long as they want on the outside, with only 1 player challenging a puck carrier at a time.

I haven't seen us playing strictly man to man in a while, yet I still see defenders chase the puck carrier up to the to of the circles all the way until they're out of position and have to scramble back to take their man.

So yes, It's hard to actually name what we do.

I'd like to know which part of his system you thinks limits chances, or shot, or helps create turnovers, or helps transition? What do you like about his system?

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Roy's system that wins games is Varlamov. I love this though. Anytime someone questions aspects of his system, just ask them to name it. It's hard to do.

Roy's system is some kind of Passive 2-3 most of the time. We allow other teams to cycle as long as they want on the outside, with only 1 player challenging a puck carrier at a time.

I haven't seen us playing strictly man to man in a while, yet I still see defenders chase the puck carrier up to the to of the circles all the way until they're out of position and have to scramble back to take their man.

So yes, It's hard to actually name what we do.

I'd like to know which part of his system you thinks limits chances, or shot, or helps create turnovers, or helps transition? What do you like about his system?

When a Dman is up at the circles they are playing man. Im quite ignorant to hockey schemes and systems, but it's obvious we play some sort of match up zone, which is a combination of man and zone. That's why the Dmen will float all over the ice. They are not out of position, they are following their assignment, the one man they got matched up with, until it's safe to fall back into a zone. If said Dman is scrambling to get back to cover someone it's usually because someone else blew their assignment and the Dman is trying to cover their mistake.

 

[slobbergob]

When a Dman is up at the circles they are playing man. Im quite ignorant to hockey schemes and systems, but it's obvious we play some sort of match up zone, which is a combination of man and zone. That's why the Dmen will float all over the ice. They are not out of position, they are following their assignment, the one man they got matched up with, until it's safe to fall back into a zone. If said Dman is scrambling to get back to cover someone it's usually because someone else blew their assignment and the Dman is trying to cover their mistake.

Generally when team's play a zone and man to man hybrid, the defense plays man to man down low, but are not supposed to chase their man to the point. The wings are still playing zone and therefore the defensemen is the one out of position by entering the winger's "zone".

Again, maybe Roy's system is different, but in theory if the defensemen was to chase an opponent up to the blueline, the winger would have to rotate down low, which would create terrible mismatches.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Generally when team's play a zone and man to man hybrid, the defense plays man to man down low, but are not supposed to chase their man to the point. The wings are still playing zone and therefore the defensemen is the one out of position by entering the winger's "zone".

Again, maybe Roy's system is different, but in theory if the defensemen was to chase an opponent up to the blueline, the winger would have to rotate down low, which would create terrible mismatches.

Roy's system is obviously different. All 5 guys need to be versatile. There is a lot of switching and rotating.

How does that create terrible mismatches? The main problem with this is guys not being on the same page.

 

[slobbergob]

Roy's system is obviously different. All 5 guys need to be versatile. There is a lot of switching and rotating.

How does that create terrible mismatches? The main problem with this is guys not being on the same page.

It was a hypothetical where the defensemen switched up high with the winger. That would force the winger to rotate down low. Do you want a winger defending the front of the net? That is a mismatch in my book.

Either way, I don't think ideally that the defensemen is supposed to be the man up by the point, so the point is moot.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

It's not 1999 anymore. I expect everyone to be able to defend any position.

My middle school basketball coach gave me some good advice one day. We would occasionally scrimmage with the girls team and one day the center kept picking up the point guard (he had a crush and just wanted to touch her) as they brought the ball down the court, which forced me, the point guard, to pick up the center. After acouple times I complained to the coach that he was doing it wrong. I was the official center the rest of the day because 'I'm not always going to guard who I ideally should And some times I will have to guard someone much bigger than me.'

 

[slobbergob]

It's not 1999 anymore. I expect everyone to be able to defend any position.

My middle school basketball coach gave me some good advice one day. We would occasionally scrimmage with the girls team and one day the center kept picking up the point guard (he had a crush and just wanted to touch her) as they brought the ball down the court, which forced me, the point guard, to pick up the center. After acouple times I complained to the coach that he was doing it wrong. I was the official center the rest of the day because 'I'm not always going to guard who I ideally should And some times I will have to guard someone much bigger than me.'

To each their own, but to build a system around having wingers defending the front of the net seems built to fail to me. When it's a forward covering for a defensemen that pinched in the offensive zone, a lot of times the other team will purposely try to exploit this by attacking the winger's side of the ice, because this is not their natural position.

I've never seen a system that would rely on forwards being the net front defender, specifically the wingers. And again, the point is moot because I'm like 90% sure this is not Roy's system.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I'm 90% sure you have no idea what we are doing. All you keep talking about is generalities. But hey, if you don't agree it must be wrong

And no, just because the forwards have a lot of responsibility does not mean the system is built around them covering the front of the net. They will occasionally need to do so though. This is not some new idea. I see other teams' forwards down around the net all the time. I read stuff about how defense and hockey schemes in general have changed so much over the past 10-15 years. I hear NHL Network talking about this a lot. Forwards have a lot more resposibility than they use to. Schemes have gotten a lot more complicated than the old school thought of mind.

 

[slobbergob]

I'm 90% sure you have no idea what we are doing. All you keep talking about is generalities. But hey, if you don't agree it must be wrong

And no, just because the forwards have a lot of responsibility does not mean the system is built around them covering the front of the net. They will occasionally need to do so though. This is not some new idea. I see other teams' forwards down around the net all the time. I read stuff about how defense and hockey schemes in general have changed so much over the past 10-15 years. I hear NHL Network talking about this a lot. Forwards have a lot more resposibility than they use to. Schemes have gotten a lot more complicated than the old school thought of mind.

I'm sorry it upsets you that I disagree with you. I just think it would be stupid to design a system that expected forwards to constantly be the net front presence. Can you give me an example of a team that actually tries to do this? I'd love to see it. I don't mean just have a forward come in and take the defensemen's spot when he leaves it, but that actually has a defensemen and winger trade off as part of the plan.


Anyway, the breakout looked much better last night. It helps the Oilers have a soft forecheck but passes were kept shorter and were tape to tape. Barrie was given a lot of room to skate it out as well which helps.

 

[CobraAcesS]

So did any of you smarter people notice a significant difference in the offensive zone last night? Obviously there was something different in the defensive zone as well.

However what stood out to me is the Avs actually cycling the puck in the offensive zone, and all lines were doing it. There was much less one off shots at the net after zone entries IMO.

The winger driving low with speed after entering the zone, and setting up a cycle seemed to be a common theme regardless of what line was on the ice. They cycled the puck until someone coming off the wall was open for a shot (blown coverage), or the point man had an open lane. Usually with this there was actually at least one forward in front of the net when the D or point man took a shot as well.

It looked simple, fast, and effective, and made some of those guys ability to pass, stick handle and pickup pucks in tight become more of an asset than it had been in the past, instead of purely trying to generate chances off the rush.

Maybe it was just because the Oiler's let us get away with it, but it looked much more deliberate than just soft coverage by Edmonton on zone entries all night.

Just curious if someone could explain that, or how many people seen the same thing. Most of the night it looked like they were going for the text book cycle in the offensive zone if possible.

 

[Freudian]

So did any of you smarter people notice a significant difference in the offensive zone last night? Obviously there was something different in the defensive zone as well.

However what stood out to me is the Avs actually cycling the puck in the offensive zone, and all lines were doing it. There was much less one off shots at the net after zone entries IMO.

The winger driving low with speed after entering the zone, and setting up a cycle seemed to be a common theme regardless of what line was on the ice. They cycled the puck until someone coming off the wall was open for a shot (blown coverage), or the point man had an open lane. Usually with this there was actually at least one forward in front of the net when the D or point man took a shot as well.

It looked simple, fast, and effective, and made some of those guys ability to pass, stick handle and pickup pucks in tight become more of an asset than it had been in the past, instead of purely trying to generate chances off the rush.

Maybe it was just because the Oiler's let us get away with it, but it looked much more deliberate than just soft coverage by Edmonton on zone entries all night.

Just curious if someone could explain that, or how many people seen the same thing. Most of the night it looked like they were going for the text book cycle in the offensive zone if possible.

Skille playing helps. Landeskog and MacKinnon were very good together along the boards. Duchene/Grigorenko/Iginla also cycled the puck well.

Oilers struggling to pick up players quickly in the defensive zone helped create cycling shifts, I guess. They looked a bit like Avs do, not being good at reading where the puck is going so they were second on most pucks.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Skille playing helps. Landeskog and MacKinnon were very good together along the boards. Duchene/Grigorenko/Iginla also cycled the puck well.

Oilers struggling to pick up players quickly in the defensive zone helped create cycling shifts, I guess. They looked a bit like Avs do, not being good at reading where the puck is going so they were second on most pucks.

Yeah, it just looked more deliberate last night. We do know that the cycle is definitely not the priority for this team, however it looked so last night.

 

[McMetal]

The breakouts looked pretty different to me against Vancouver. More of the short passes people have been calling for.