Player Discussion Colin White - C/RW - PART 2

[playasRus]

I think all of these "weird" roster moves come from the idea that they only wanted to have 3 rookie forwards on the team. 1 LW, 1 Center and 1 RW

Stutzle on LW : turned 19 y/o, top pick, has already played in a men's league, is physically and mentally ready

Batherson on RW : dominated the AHL for 2 years, seems pretty ripe

Norris at C : 21 y/o, RoY over PPG in his AHL rookie season, needs NHL experience (like any other young player) but it seems that they want him to graduate now.

I dont undertand this point though, Colin White isn't a rookie in any way.

 

[Xspyrit]

Found a post I had in 2017

"What I am saying is that Dorion worries me. He spends like a mad-man, like he wants to keep everybody and give everybody a raise to make them happy, but this team has a budget and even if Melnyk finally agrees to spend to the cap, there's the salary cap after."

Not sure if I meant only in terms of $$$ but probably in terms of spending assets too. It was a worry, which has been even more worrying lately.

I dont undertand this point though, Colin White isn't a rookie in any way.

Explained in the part of my post you cut. Number's game, log jam, too many 1-ways and the desire to graduate 3 rookies. White is in the shuffle with the other guys

I mean, I'm not sure it's going to be easy at this point for White to outplay safe/solid guys like Stepan, Tierney, C. Brown, etc.

"Luckily" for him, Anisimov (pretty good career and "had a really good camp") had a really bad 1st game so White got 1 chance so far.

 

[Sweatred]

White was credited with 2 hits last night. That’s decent for a guy who’s been around 0.5 HPG average.

There is a top 9 player in there if he can handle the puck better and keep continue to improve his physical play.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Criticizing White for being gifted a spot last year is really not criticizing White it is criticizing the DJ for putting him there and or Dorion for making DJ do it.

Criticizing White for playing with a 4.75 AAV contract is not criticizing White it definitely is criticizing Dorion for giving him that contract.

White in 2018-19 , as a result of Stone or not played much better then than we've seen him play since then, with perhaps the exception of some games towards the end of 2019-20. He was making plays and being involved in plays around the net; and played well in all 3 zones. It was not all just tapping in cross crease passes from Stone. I want to see that White again.

 

[Sweatred]

Criticizing White for being gifted a spot last year is really not criticizing White it is criticizing the DJ for putting him there and or Dorion for making DJ do it.

Criticizing White for playing with a 4.75 AAV contract is not criticizing White it definitely is criticizing Dorion for giving him that contract.

White in 2018-19 , as a result of Stone or not played much better then than we've seen him play since then, with perhaps the exception of some games towards the end of 2019-20. He was making plays and being involved in plays around the net; and played well in all 3 zones. It was not all just tapping in cross crease passes from Stone. I want to see that White again.

The Sens are guilty of signing that contract and not sending him to the minors. The player and agent also share a had a hand in setting that value. They would of used the “situation” to their advantage to push for a higher payout to avoid another hold out or lost free agent.

I’m sure you can recall how excited the fan base was to have that deal completed - great deal, steal, were the most commonly used words to describe it.

The player also takes responsibility for their development. It’s pretty clear that White worked harder this off-season than last. The same effort would have helped him in 2019-20.

Now he’s battling for a 4th line spot where guys slot at $1.5 ish - he can be bought out and replaced for less than his $5 million/year salary if he doesn’t improve.

 

[Beech]

Criticizing White for being gifted a spot last year is really not criticizing White it is criticizing the DJ for putting him there and or Dorion for making DJ do it.

Criticizing White for playing with a 4.75 AAV contract is not criticizing White it definitely is criticizing Dorion for giving him that contract.

White in 2018-19 , as a result of Stone or not played much better then than we've seen him play since then, with perhaps the exception of some games towards the end of 2019-20. He was making plays and being involved in plays around the net; and played well in all 3 zones. It was not all just tapping in cross crease passes from Stone. I want to see that White again.

a 30-40 game hot spell may have been at the heart of us over rating him. It is impossible to know for sure. The team violated the essence of the CBA. 3 year entry level contracts!!!

That is in there to do two things. Stop escalating salaries and stop owners from handing out insane contracts to rookies based on assumption/presumption and that player's marketing value. And, to give a club a full 3 years to see a player. To see him play 200 games in gradually increasing importance. To watch him climb from a 3/4 liner up to where you hope he ends up. To flush out 30-40 game hot streaks or 30-40 game slumps.

The Sens mishandled it and turned it into a single season and may have gotten fooled by a 30-40 game hot streak!!

I hope that a lesson has been learned.

 

[Sweatred]

a 30-40 game hot spell may have been at the heart of us over rating him. It is impossible to know for sure. The team violated the essence of the CBA. 3 year entry level contracts!!!

That is in there to do two things. Stop escalating salaries and stop owners from handing out insane contracts to rookies based on assumption/presumption and that player's marketing value. And, to give a club a full 3 years to see a player. To see him play 200 games in gradually increasing importance. To watch him climb from a 3/4 liner up to where you hope he ends up. To flush out 30-40 game hot streaks or 30-40 game slumps.

The Sens mishandled it and turned it into a single season and may have gotten fooled by a 30-40 game hot streak!!

I hope that a lesson has been learned.

Yes - I think we’ve seen the Sens acknowledge this issue. Batherson, Brown, Brann, Norris, Formenton etc have all been forced to maximize their development and play more games than White did in the AHL. The Bath we see today is much stronger than the bath from 2019.

Logan Brown will be negotiating a contract and the Sens have basically eliminated any chance a brief hot streak would lead to a $28.5 extension. Brown today is better then 2018 White and he will get a modest bridge which is exactly what White should have got.that will get him motivated and hungry and hopefully set him up for a better pay day at 25.

 

[Sensinitis]

I know White is not the best playmaker in the world but Stützle is elite in that regard so I’d like to see White take Stepan’s spot at some point this season with Dadonov on the other side. It could be an interesting mix of different skill sets and might allow White to develop his offence a bit more.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I know White is not the best playmaker in the world but Stützle is elite in that regard so I’d like to see White take Stepan’s spot at some point this season with Dadonov on the other side. It could be an interesting mix of different skill sets and might allow White to develop his offence a bit more.

White's puck handling is something that needs to improve. We've seen that last year. Game 1 it was in evidence again but at least a small percentage of that has to be the layoff from the pace of real games.. I'd like to see him get more rope to regain some confidence. Confidence is a funny little animal.. It can take some time to build bit can be shattered very quickly. The microscope is on him. Right now he is our fastest C by quite a bit .. there should be opportunities for him.

 

[Beech]

Yes - I think we’ve seen the Sens acknowledge this issue. Batherson, Brown, Brann, Norris, Formenton etc have all been forced to maximize their development and play more games than White did in the AHL. The Bath we see today is much stronger than the bath from 2019.

Logan Brown will be negotiating a contract and the Sens have basically eliminated any chance a brief hot streak would lead to a $28.5 extension. Brown today is better then 2018 White and he will get a modest bridge which is exactly what White should have got.that will get him motivated and hungry and hopefully set him up for a better pay day at 25.

I think that White has done more to hold those behind him, back (financially) than imaginable. I am guessing Dorion/Melnyk have been bitten and in the short term will not repeat that mistake. Dorion was at his job a mere two years. I am guessing Dorion today would not repeat those mistakes.

Eugene's 28 million dollar fee for Dorion's education. On top of his ~ 50 million dollar fee for Murray's education. Heck 4 years at Harvard is a mere $250 K...It may have been wiser for Melnyk to send the whole Hockey Ops to Harvard for 4 years.

 

[Sweatred]

I think that White has done more to hold those behind him, back (financially) than imaginable. I am guessing Dorion/Melnyk have been bitten and in the short term will not repeat that mistake. Dorion was at his job a mere two years. I am guessing Dorion today would not repeat those mistakes.

Eugene's 28 million dollar fee for Dorion's education. On top of his ~ 50 million dollar fee for Murray's education. Heck 4 years at Harvard is a mere $250 K...It may have been wiser for Melnyk to send the whole Hockey Ops to Harvard for 4 years.

Absolutely - I never understood how so many people defaulted to “ it’s just EM’s money” who cares how he spends it . This has major implications on Norris and Brown for playing time and future contract. The Sens have made a little room this year for Norris/Brown but neither will get the opportunity that White did. It is probably easier for PD to just recognize that the White contact is a brutal mistake on his part vs acknowledging it as a compatible.

 

[Sweatred]

White’s potential buyout will cost the Sens $850000 a year and save them about $3.9 million for 4 years.

Where does White need to justify himself in the lineup to avoid a buyout? If he was signed to a bridge he would be an easy prospect to keep sub $2.0.

We can get a better 4C or 4RW like GAL, Watson or another sub $2.0 million player. Tierney at $3 is playing an effective 3C. Paul, Chaplik, Pinto remain other options at both 3C or 4C sub $1.35 million.

I think it’s 2C or buyout for White. He is basically in a battle with Logan Brown and Stutzle to take over Stepan’s role or to stop the Sens from acquiring a top C.

His development should be focused on getting the player to the point in 6 months that they can decide if they see a player capable of playing 2C for them. If not they can save nearly $16 million by moving on.

 

[TheDebater]

White’s potential buyout will cost the Sens $850000 a year and save them about $3.9 million for 4 years.

Where does White need to justify himself in the lineup to avoid a buyout? If he was signed to a bridge he would be an easy prospect to keep sub $2.0.

We can get a better 4C or 4RW like GAL, Watson or another sub $2.0 million player. Tierney at $3 is playing an effective 3C. Paul, Chaplik, Pinto remain other options at both 3C or 4C sub $1.35 million.

I think it’s 2C or buyout for White. He is basically in a battle with Logan Brown and Stutzle to take over Stepan’s role or to stop the Sens from acquiring a top C.

His development should be focused on getting the player to the point in 6 months that they can decide if they see a player capable of playing 2C for them. If not they can save nearly $16 million by moving on.

In what world do we need to buy out Colin White right now? Why get rid of a young player who has not fully developed yet?

We are far from a team that needs the cap space right now, so it literally does not matter how much Colin White makes, management needs to focus on turning him into a serviceable top 9 center/winger.

 

[Sweatred]

In what world do we need to buy out Colin White right now? Why get rid of a young player who has not fully developed yet?

We are far from a team that needs the cap space right now, so it literally does not matter how much Colin White makes, management needs to focus on turning him into a serviceable top 9 center/winger.

We don't need to buy White out now, we need to consider if he should be bought out in June and his $20.5 million he owe him less $850G /yr can be used to support other areas the team.

 

[robsenz]

White’s potential buyout will cost the Sens $850000 a year and save them about $3.9 million for 4 years.

Where does White need to justify himself in the lineup to avoid a buyout? If he was signed to a bridge he would be an easy prospect to keep sub $2.0.

We can get a better 4C or 4RW like GAL, Watson or another sub $2.0 million player. Tierney at $3 is playing an effective 3C. Paul, Chaplik, Pinto remain other options at both 3C or 4C sub $1.35 million.

I think it’s 2C or buyout for White. He is basically in a battle with Logan Brown and Stutzle to take over Stepan’s role or to stop the Sens from acquiring a top C.

His development should be focused on getting the player to the point in 6 months that they can decide if they see a player capable of playing 2C for them. If not they can save nearly $16 million by moving on.

No offense, but not much of a battle. I'm giving him 3 more games to show something before I entirely write him off, I honestly hate how he is constantly behind every play when he is dressed. In my mind, it's now or never, no more excuses, but he needs to play to determine this.

 

[Sweatred]

No offense, but not much of a battle. I'm giving him 3 more games to show something before I entirely write him off, I honestly hate how he is constantly behind every play when he is dressed. In my mind, it's now or never, no more excuses, but he needs to play to determine this.

I mean ... even if he improves a bit, being marginally better than Arti at 4C hardly justifies $5.15 x 4 more years.

 

[Xspyrit]

In what world do we need to buy out Colin White right now? Why get rid of a young player who has not fully developed yet?

We are far from a team that needs the cap space right now, so it literally does not matter how much Colin White makes, management needs to focus on turning him into a serviceable top 9 center/winger.

Balcers, Chlapik and Jaros just got waived. Maybe they are "dime a dozen" like some like to say but if you consider White @4.75 x 5 years vs Balcers @0.735... then White is also dime a dozen, but with a big contract. I mean, he's sitting for Anisimov, a player who has declined.

Maybe it changes in the near future, but at this exact moment, White seems to have fallen out of favor. If we treade him, need to take a contract back in return. He has no value if we don't.

 

[TheDebater]

Balcers, Chlapik and Jaros just got waived. Maybe they are "dime a dozen" like some like to say but if you consider White @4.75 x 5 years vs Balcers @0.735... then White is also dime a dozen, but with a big contract. I mean, he's sitting for Anisimov, a player who has declined.

Maybe it changes in the near future, but at this exact moment, White seems to have fallen out of favor. If we treade him, need to take a contract back in return. He has no value if we don't.

It might not be fair, but players picked in round 1 tend to get more leniency and rope when it comes to their development. They get picked early on in the draft for a reason, and that reason is usually enough to justify being a little more patient with them as opposed to a player drafted in rounds 3 and later.

 

[Xspyrit]

It might not be fair, but players picked in round 1 tend to get more leniency and rope when it comes to their development. They get picked early on in the draft for a reason, and that reason is usually enough to justify being a little more patient with them as opposed to a player drafted in rounds 3 and later.

He turns 24 in 9 days (born on same day as Chabot)

Something's gotta give. Hopefully the whole situation is fixed very soon, don't want to piss Chabot if White gets the shaft

 

[Ouroboros]

The Colin White contract was underpinned by two key assumptions:

1. The player would develop and improve
2. The NHL salary cap would continue to increase at at least an inflationary rate

Neither of these appear as if they will come to fruition.

So now we're in the position of having a long-term, bad money contract on the books. There is little chance White will ever be "worth" his salary or cap hit. This has massive negative impacts - it ruins the team's internal salary structure, makes negotiations with quality RFA's more difficult and takes a roster spot away from more deserving players. Luckily the team has the option to buy him out at a modest 1/3 of his contract value. That means if it happens this summer, the Sens can recoup ~14 of the 20.5M they owe to White. They'd be crazy to not press that release valve.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

White's puck handling is something that needs to improve. We've seen that last year. Game 1 it was in evidence again but at least a small percentage of that has to be the layoff from the pace of real games.. I'd like to see him get more rope to regain some confidence. Confidence is a funny little animal.. It can take some time to build bit can be shattered very quickly. The microscope is on him. Right now he is our fastest C by quite a bit .. there should be opportunities for him.

His puck handling will never be GREAT but it does need to improve ... when Colin is back to himself you will know and it will be obvious to all ... you will see him hit defense at 5th gear and then shift into 6th gear for blow bys ... then you will know he is fully back and healthy ... it is his calling card his raison d'etre and it creates his chances ... in a couple months everyone will see da real Colin White and when he plays a solid 2 way game getting 50 pts per year everyone will then say wow what a great CAP hit and genius GMing ... look around try to get a 2C/3C who plays a 2 way game and puts up 50+ pts for under $5M unless you bring in TAX FREE states like Florida where guys sign for less because it is really all about what you put in ur pocket that counts

 

[Sweatred]

His puck handling will never be GREAT but it does need to improve ... when Colin is back to himself you will know and it will be obvious to all ... you will see him hit defense at 5th gear and then shift into 6th gear for blow bys ... then you will know he is fully back and healthy ... it is his calling card his raison d'etre and it creates his chances ... in a couple months everyone will see da real Colin White and when he plays a solid 2 way game getting 50 pts per year everyone will then say wow what a great CAP hit and genius GMing ... look around try to get a 2C/3C who plays a 2 way game and puts up 50+ pts for under $5M unless you bring in TAX FREE states like Florida where guys sign for less because it is really all about what you put in ur pocket that counts

Hope so - that buy out window position this summer is decent if the Sens don’t think he has $5 million play in him.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Hope so - that buy out window position this summer is decent if the Sens don’t think he has $5 million play in him.

You will he has been a player since he could p*ss straight ... when a young kid gets hurt for 1st time he does not truly understand it ... he is on path to full recovery ... of all your special young guys he is one i would worry about least ... da kid ooozes character and he was brought up da right way ... once he gets his 6th gear back look out ... he needs a power winger who can open up ice for him to use his speed and a sniper on his other wing who can fill da net

 

[Sweatred]

You will he has been a player since he could p*ss straight ... when a young kid gets hurt for 1st time he does not truly understand it ... he is on path to full recovery ... of all your special young guys he is one i would worry about least ... da kid ooozes character and he was brought up da right way ... once he gets his 6th gear back look out ... he needs a power winger who can open up ice for him to use his speed and a sniper on his other wing who can fill da net

Nice that you advocate for the kid - I think I read you know him a little. I’d love to see him take over 2-3C on this team with the play you describe.

 

[Burrowsaurus]