Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: The Crosby and Vanek Show (w/ guest Craig Adams)

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Sutter started off well here. But basically hasn't progressed since. It's all about getting the experience right now. More time he has with these guys, the more he will be able to play to his potential. I think we will see that style of play come playoffs

 

[Darth Vitale]

Sutter started off well here. But basically hasn't progressed since. It's all about getting the experience right now. More time he has with these guys, the more he will be able to play to his potential. I think we will see that style of play come playoffs

Could arguably be a similar situation to Neal's first year although he did have the benefit of being settled and a shortened camp, etc.

Takes a while to learn the system and where you get your opportunities within it... I don't necessarily expect a big change in the playoffs but with some useful acquisitions, perhaps next year. Him playing with Cooke and Dupuis would be a pretty righteous 3rd line.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

KIRK, the team will get it together as they always do. Many other Cup favorites are working out the kinks too. The only team playing like a Cup favorite has to be Chicago and maybe Boston. It's still early. Relax.

Edit: Stop touching my posts pl0x kthx bye.

 

[eXile59]

Gonna also give a plus to NBC today. Not sure I remeber who it was, but it was one of those side comments on Sid where they were talking about Sid and how he felt good at the beginning of the year, but from all the rehab, he was a little over weight, like 220 or so. A few weeks into the season, he's back down that that normal playing weight around 203 and look at how he's playing.
Can we laugh at the Crosbyphobes from the beginning of the year that thought his career was over yet???

210 is what they said. 220 would have been Kyle Wellwood territory.

 

[Jacob]

Gonna also give a plus to NBC today. Not sure I remeber who it was, but it was one of those side comments on Sid where they were talking about Sid and how he felt good at the beginning of the year, but from all the rehab, he was a little over weight, like 220 or so. A few weeks into the season, he's back down that that normal playing weight around 203 and look at how he's playing.
Can we laugh at the Crosbyphobes from the beginning of the year that thought his career was over yet???

It was 210 lbs and I think he was referring to Crosby's weight last season.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Him playing with Cooke and Dupuis would be a pretty righteous 3rd line.

Exactly what I've been hoping for when looking at the deadline. Add Stewart and another winger or Stewart and Bennett if he shows he can handle it. And move Dupuis to 3rd line...making it a dangerous one again. Since Kennedy obviously can't get it done right now

 

[KIRK]

KIRK, the team will get it together as they always do. Many other Cup favorites are working out the kinks too. The only team playing like a Cup favorite has to be Chicago and maybe Boston. It's still early. Relax.

I don't see much difference between what's out there now and what was going on last March. When I do, I'll join the optimist list. Until then, I got fooled in 2010 and am loathe to be fooled twice.

EDIT: That said-- and I'll be 100% in earnest-- I will not be stunned if things evolve differently this time. I'd be happy if they do.

 

[Captain Hook]

The team certainly wasn't perfect but that was a fun ****ing game to watch.

Fleury was great, Miller was too.

Dupuis has somehow hit his prime a little later than most players do. He's played like a legit top 6 guy the past couple years.

 

[Jacob]

+Crosby, another 3 point night
+Dupuis, good hustle and 2 goals
+Martin, what a great year he's having

=Bylsma's attempt at jamming

-Malkin, he needs to be better
-dumb penalties

Hahaha.. glad someone caught and saved that. The Clash were playing, as I recall.

 

[jmelm]

By the way Engelland played 13 minutes and Bort played 8:49. The Pens basically didn't even play their third pairing this game.

they needed that size and grit while Despres sat in the press box!

This is simply the problem that is going to continue to come up when you're swapping out young Dmen like Despres or Bortuzzo. We've got 7 good NHL Dmen, but these Despres & Bort aren't experienced/accomplished enough to sit out for games at a time and come back into the line-up and not make mistakes. Despres will probably also get 9-10 mins in his first game back into the line-up. This is just the way it's going to be until both are regulars in the line-up (probably next season).


I would like to see us not let either of Despres or Bortuzzo sit too long without playing. This means they should be utilized a bit more how Fleury & Vokoun or other similar 1a/1b goalie tandems are used (getting a bit more of an even split in playing time). This may mean that Despres and Bortuzzo each sit in exchange for each other a bit more; and I would also like to see Dan Bylsma, at least occasionally, dress 7 Dmen for some games to get both of these guys in. We need them both to develop for the future and both be ready for bigger roles this season in case of injury, so we need to work them both into games more regularly.

I actually agree with the premise here, which is why I want Niskanen traded. Despres needs to be in the top-4.

A: while I am very happy with Desres' development thus far, I do not believe he is really ready for consistent top-4 minutes this season, and I would expect his warts would be even further exposed come this year's playoffs. Martin and Orpik aren't being broken up anytime soon, and Letang does not look comfortable with Despres at this point, which automatically puts Despres on the bottom pairing right now, which is about where he should be this season.

(And even longer term, I envision Letang being paired with more of a defensive guy like Harrington or Dumoulin, and Despres also paired with more of a defensive type -- like Bortuzzo or Engelland -- so Simon can play more of his offensive game)

B: trading Niskanen right now (especially if it's just so we can bump Despres up the roster) is a bad idea and premature. I say this because I think we need the extra depth this year for a playoff run, because Despres isn't quite ready for top-4 yet like I said above, and also because I think we would be "selling low" a bit on Niskanen right now. Niskanen has definitely turned things around since he's been here, but I thinkhe needs more time to prove Crosby is right by calling him the "breakout player of the season", and obviously being out with injury the last few weeks did not help this.

I think Niskanen's trade value is only 50-60% of what it could be if he plays the balance of the season & playoffs, and perhaps even next year as well (if one of Martin/Orpik needs to be moved for cap purposes). Don't get me wrong: I would happily trade Niskanen if we could get great value and a great return for him right now, but I just think we are more likely to get a more significant return if we hold on to him for a bit longer. And if we have to move an Orpik/Martin in the summer, we will need Niskanen next season for one more year.

 

[KIRK]

Could arguably be a similar situation to Neal's first year although he did have the benefit of being settled and a shortened camp, etc.

Takes a while to learn the system and where you get your opportunities within it... I don't necessarily expect a big change in the playoffs but with some useful acquisitions, perhaps next year. Him playing with Cooke and Dupuis would be a pretty righteous 3rd line.

But, that would mean adding two top six wingers, and that would mean you share what I've been saying for the last year, that this team is a proper second wheel for Sid and a proper third wheel from Geno from being as well set as they can be.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

I don't see much difference between what's out there now and what was going on last March. When I do, I'll join the optimist list. Until then, I got fooled in 2010 and am loathe to be fooled twice.

Until the last few games we were playing much better defensively at even strength, granted our offense has been a little stagnant. I'd be surprised if we didn't make a few deadline additions. One legitimate top 6 winger would do wonders to solidify this offense.

 

[IcedCapp]

This is simply the problem that is going to continue to come up when you're swapping out young Dmen like Despres or Bortuzzo. We've got 7 good NHL Dmen, but these Despres & Bort aren't experienced/accomplished enough to sit out for games at a time and come back into the line-up and not make mistakes. Despres will probably also get 9-10 mins in his first game back into the line-up. This is just the way it's going to be until both are regulars in the line-up (probably next season).


I would like to see us not let either of Despres or Bortuzzo sit too long without playing. This means they should be utilized a bit more how Fleury & Vokoun or other similar 1a/1b goalie tandems are used (getting a bit more of an even split in playing time). This may mean that Despres and Bortuzzo each sit in exchange for each other a bit more; and I would also like to see Dan Bylsma, at least occasionally, dress 7 Dmen for some games to get both of these guys in. We need them both to develop for the future and both be ready for bigger roles this season in case of injury, so we need to work them both into games more regularly.





A: while I am very happy with Desres' development thus far, I do not believe he is really ready for consistent top-4 minutes this season, and I would expect his warts would be even further exposed come this year's playoffs. Martin and Orpik aren't being broken up anytime soon, and Letang does not look comfortable with Despres at this point, which automatically puts Despres on the bottom pairing right now, which is about where he should be this season.

(And even longer term, I envision Letang being paired with more of a defensive guy like Harrington or Dumoulin, and Despres also paired with more of a defensive type -- like Bortuzzo or Engelland -- so Simon can play more of his offensive game)

B: trading Niskanen right now (especially if it's just so we can bump Despres up the roster) is a bad idea and premature. I say this because I think we need the extra depth this year for a playoff run, because Despres isn't quite ready for top-4 yet like I said above, and also because I think we would be "selling low" a bit on Niskanen right now. Niskanen has definitely turned things around since he's been here, but I thinkhe needs more time to prove Crosby is right by calling him the "breakout player of the season", and obviously being out with injury the last few weeks did not help this.

I think Niskanen's trade value is only 50-60% of what it could be if he plays the balance of the season & playoffs, and perhaps even next year as well (if one of Martin/Orpik needs to be moved for cap purposes). Don't get me wrong: I would happily trade Niskanen if we could get great value and a great return for him right now, but I just think we are more likely to get a more significant return if we hold on to him for a bit longer. And if we have to move an Orpik/Martin in the summer, we will need Niskanen next season for one more year.

Ok, I won't disagree with that, but will say I'd they aren't going to give him top-4 minutes, which I think he needs/deserves, then I have t agree with your earlier suggestion:he needs to be sent down. I think he's goods enough to play top-4 minutes on this team, but 24-minutes/night in the A is better than 0 minutes in the N.

 

[Darth Vitale]

But, that would mean adding two top six wingers, and that would mean you share what I've been saying for the last year, that this team is a proper second wheel for Sid and a proper third wheel from Geno from being as well set as they can be.

I was thinking next year WRT to Dupuis moving down. Not happening this year even if we get a nice winger at the deadline. Not likely anyway. Bennett will make the team out of camp next season IMO, he will effectively take Dupuis' place even if he's not in the same slot.

Bennett - Sid - Acquisition
Kunitz - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis
Glass- Vitale - Vitale

 

[KIRK]

Until the last few games we were playing much better defensively at even strength, granted our offense has been a little stagnant. I'd be surprised if we didn't make a few deadline additions. One legitimate top 6 winger would do wonders to solidify this offense.

Hope so. Then again, I was surprised that Shero stood pat last year.

 

[KIRK]

I was thinking next year WRT to Dupuis moving down. Not happening this year even if we get a nice winger at the deadline. Not likely anyway. Bennett will make the team out of camp next season IMO, he will effectively take Dupuis' place even if he's not in the same slot.

Bennett - Sid - Acquisition
Kunitz - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis
Glass- Vitale - Vitale

What about this year?

 

[IcedCapp]

Until the last few games we were playing much better defensively at even strength, granted our offense has been a little stagnant. I'd be surprised if we didn't make a few deadline additions. One legitimate top 6 winger would do wonders to solidify this offense.

I'd like to see a bottom-6 player brought in, too, unless Shero does what I don't expects and completely remakes the top-6 and moves dupuis to the 3rd line

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

But, that would mean adding two top six wingers, and that would mean you share what I've been saying for the last year, that this team is a proper second wheel for Sid and a proper third wheel from Geno from being as well set as they can be. And, sharing my opinion would mean that you need your head examined.

Plenty of people have been agreeing with that opinion. It hasn't been a secret what we need. Most just realize there's other teams in the league that want to make the playoffs so they aren't going to hand us all of their wingers a month and a half away from the deadline. Most are anxiously waiting for the deadline, making countless fantasy lineups of who we are going to acquire while enjoying the sloppy wins in the meantime. Most don't feel the need to constantly harp on Shero and the Fo when we are a month and a half away from deadline.

That is all.

 

[SirBrad]

Hahaha.. glad someone caught and saved that. The Clash were playing, as I recall.

That's awesome. Disco Dan rocking the casbah.

 

[vodeni]

++ Sid is playing just OK and he's still the best player in the league. That is insane.
++Duper. He has never ever been our problem, what a steal for that money
+Kuni, I am his hater, but he plays better, still hate to see him on the PP.
+Martin, I forgot who said before but even at the apex of hate I never stopped thinking that he was way better than the crap thrown at him. I was watching him today, solid game but he made 3 big mistakes that could have been goals, this year it doesn't and he is fine.
=Our second line center. I have no fear about his delivery, his performance, Bylsma will in his Jack adams winning style try many different things and eventually something will work. His line for one or another reason is playing PK most of the time. Two out of three players on his line do not make any defensive or forechecking plays, combined with having Bortuzzo, engo, or Orpik and Martin behind results on defense clearing that puck and not letting that line any chance. Even playing like that Geno still has many great looks and not much luck. see an excellent article
http://thehockeywriters.com/evgeni-malkin-goal-scoring-drought-just-bad-luck/
my biggest problem is our third line. We get very little out of that line. I just don't see excitement about Sutter, he doesn't seem to have any offensive skills, his puck handling doesn't appear to be anything special, and his much louded defensive game, I don't know, I pay special attention to his game and all I see him loosing every battle...
+MAF is fine, just what we need above average NHL goalie with hopefully 920 percentage

All in all, most of us are not happy with the way Pens played, no seemingly working concept more of the lets rush and throw and whatever stick, however I have been watching a lot of other games and most of the teams are not any better, actually worse, so my question is How Good We Can Actually Be. That is a scary thought and a lot to look forward.

 

[Jacob]

I think Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis is the ideal 3rd line and we should do whatever it takes as far as acquiring top 6 wingers to bump Dupuis down into his proper role.

 

[KIRK]

Plenty of people have been agreeing with that opinion. It hasn't been a secret what we need. Most just realize there's other teams in the league that want to make the playoffs so they aren't going to hand us all of their wingers a month and a half away from the deadline. Most are anxiously waiting for the deadline, making countless fantasy lineups of who we are going to acquire while enjoying the sloppy wins in the meantime. Most don't feel the need to constantly harp on Shero and the Fo when we are a month and a half away from deadline.

That is all.

If it makes you feel better, I was harping a month out from the deadline last year, and you see where it got me.

 

[jmelm]

Ok, I won't disagree with that, but will say I'd they aren't going to give him top-4 minutes, which I think he needs/deserves, then I have t agree with your earlier suggestion:he needs to be sent down. I think he's goods enough to play top-4 minutes on this team, but 24-minutes/night in the A is better than 0 minutes in the N.

Well if that was/becomes the plan, then it will prove to be a big mistake by letting Strait go this season. I don't mind the loss of Strait if the Pens want to give Despres the opportunity instead, but I do think Despres AND Bortuzzo can both still benefit by playing 70-75% of the remaing games each. (sometimes by bumping each other out of the line-up, or sometimes by dressing 7 Dmen).

I think we'll need both of these guys to play signficant roles next year, so I can justify giving both of them the opportunity to grow this season. Sitting out one or two games in a row isn't going to hurt a player. Sitting them for 4 or 5 games in a row will. This is why I don't like what they're doing with Jeffrey; and it's too early to judge the Bort/Despres situation yet because Niskanen has only been back for 2 games at this point.

 

[IcedCapp]

If it makes you feel better, I was harping a month out from the deadline last year, and you see where it got me.

I don't think anyone gives you any grief because you think the team needs two top-6 wingers... Most agree with that. I think all grief is related to other opinions :p

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

I think Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis is the ideal 3rd line and we should do whatever it takes as far as acquiring top 6 wingers to bump Dupuis down into his proper role.

Dupuis doesn't have that " name" to look good on paper on the first line , but when you see him penciled in on that 3rd line it looks pretty damn nice.