Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus Minus: Pens vs. Preds - Face to face with the demons and the demons win again

[CheckingLineCenter]

The MTL NYI game was a toss.
Either way you want to look at it was good or bad. Good for home ice for the penguins if they continue to produce points, bad for the bottom seeding basement numbers to get into the post season if the penguins falter putting up points.

But pens won sooooo yeah, was a wash on the basement numbers to get in and gained ground for home ice.

Also helps us avoid WSH in RD1, something I’d prefer.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Bench him from PP1. From 3-on-3. From Malkin when he returns.

You can play him even strength on line 3 or line 4. In honesty line 4 would be best but I worry about it killing his trade value.

I don't even know if that does anything. You likely piss off a guy who has never been super in control of his emotions, and you remove a guy that, even struggling, has the talent to change a game with one shift.

It's a rough situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[LOGiK]

Also helps us avoid WSH in RD1, something I’d prefer.

Tough to say though. If we are going to have to face the envitable... which is that the penguins WILL face the capitals, I might prefer it earlier than later.
My reason for that? Because look what the flyers did to the penguins last year. Mashed out Hags and Geno jacked his knee.
Then comes the capitals and ZAR gets curb stomped.....
Penguins took a beating last post season.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Every result we could have hoped for tonight we pretty much got. Nice!

Wow even Edmonton took out CBJ. Clutch af.

 

[tread102]

I don't even know if that does anything. You likely piss off a guy who has never been super in control of his emotions, and you remove a guy that, even struggling, has the talent to change a game with one shift.

It's a rough situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Exactly you gotta let him play his way out of it, and if he doesn’t address it in the offseason

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't even know if that does anything. You likely piss off a guy who has never been super in control of his emotions, and you remove a guy that, even struggling, has the talent to change a game with one shift.

It's a rough situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The point is to maximize Malkin and the PP1, which means he doesn't get to participate with either until he earns that back again. It isn't to teach him a lesson. It's to win without him, which I actually think this team might be good enough to do.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The point is to maximize Malkin and the PP1, which means he doesn't get to participate with either until he earns that back again. It isn't to teach him a lesson. It's to win without him, which I actually think this team might be good enough to do.

I'm not even really against it, I just don't think it's gonna do anything positive for the Phil situation. Though it does mitigate his detrimental impact, I suppose.

You'd better be damned sure about it before you do it, though, because you're pretty much punching his ticket out of town. As much as I'm an advocate for this team going in another direction this summer, there's a very real potential for things to be botched regarding a Kessel trade. If you essentially bench him without removing him from the lineup (no time on the top PP unit, third or fourth line minutes), you're committing to going another direction, I think. That's a Pandora's Box that can't be closed.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm not even really against it, I just don't think it's gonna do anything positive for the Phil situation. Though it does mitigate his detrimental impact, I suppose.

You'd better be damned sure about it before you do it, though, because you're pretty much punching his ticket out of town. As much as I'm an advocate for this team going in another direction this summer, there's a very real potential for things to be botched regarding a Kessel trade. If you essentially bench him without removing him from the lineup (no time on the top PP unit, third or fourth line minutes), you're committing to going another direction, I think. That's a Pandora's Box that can't be closed.

I'm all about opening that box. The majority of this board is too I think. Phil has done a great job swaying them to this opinion with his play from last May till now (outside of a nice run in October).

Guentzel-Crosby-McCann
ZAR-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Bjugs-Hornqvist/Phil
Teddy-Cullen-Hornqvist/Phil

PP1: Sid, Geno, Bjugs, Hornqvist, Letang
PP2: Jake, Phil, Simon/McCann, Schultz, Pettersson

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

+++++++++++++++ MURRAY: I am so tired of people dogging on him. He's terrific. That's all.

But he let in a goal! Clearly it was his fault the Pens didn't win in regulation!

-----

As for your first post, my God is it getting tiresome how this team simply cannot hold a lead late in the game. It's almost comical at this point how you can predict what will happen when the Pens go into the final 5 minutes of a game up by 1 goal.

Kudos for the win and beating a strong Nashville team, but come on already. At some point it would be nice if they could prevent the opposition from scoring in the final 5 minutes.

 

[canadianguy77]

Its clear to anyone who has a set of working eyes that Phil can't physically play like he did a year or 2 ago. Its not a lack of effort. He's really trying out there.

He can't start like he used to, he can't shoot like he used to, and even his passing is way off. We're not talking about a lot here, so its not like he's Craig Adams out there, but its enough to make a difference, especially when it comes to his particular playing style.

The velocity of his shot may have only lost a few MPH, but in a league of the very best in the world, even losing 3 or 4 MPH of velocity is enough to take you from elite to barely above average. There isn't a lot differentiating the top 5 guys in the world from the next 50 best.

Aging has caught up to him and his natural talents aren't enough to get him by playing his usual game without some serious hard work on his part. If he doesn't change his game or start to take his conditioning seriously, (in a perfect world, preferably both) he's a guy I can see being out of the league in 2 or 3 years.

If I'm Sullivan I give him less minutes and hope that he can overcome with that for the rest of this season.

If I'm JR, I get on Phils case after this season about him maybe re-inventing himself, by changing his off season habits or taking the defensive zone more seriously. The only thing is that I bet that iron man streak throws a wrench into everything.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Its clear to anyone who has a set of working eyes that Phil can't physically play like he did a year or 2 ago. Its not a lack of effort. He's really trying out there.

He can't start like he used to, he can't shoot like he used to, and even his passing is way off. We're not talking about a lot here, so its not like he's Craig Adams out there, but its enough to make a difference, espescially when it comes to his particular playing style.

The velocity of his shot may have only lost a few MPH, but in a league of the very best in the world, even losing 3 or 4 MPH of velocity is enough to take you from elite to barely above average. There isn't a lot differentiating the top 5 guys in the world from the next 50 best.

Aging has caught up to him and his natural talents aren't enough to get him by playing his usual game without some serious hard work on his part. If he doesn't change his game or start to take his conditioning seriously, (in a perfect world, preferably both) he's a guy I can see being out of the league in 2 or 3 years.

If I'm Sullivan I give him less minutes and hope that he can overcome with that for the rest of this season.

If I'm JR, I get on Phils case after this season about him maybe re-inventing himself, by changing his off season habits or taking the defensive zone more seriously. The only thing is that I bet that iron man streak throws a wrench into everything.

This could be the case but can also see him stepping it up somewhere else. I think he needs to be gone for sure this summer unless he explodes during the playoffs and helps us win. But if not..id like to see us trade him at the draft. No matter what some think I do believe he can get us a lottery pick +. Then we use his money to add another winger.

But who knows...we could all think differently after these playoffs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

-Any player who is supposed to be a ln offensive contributor.

I'm tired of this BS. Requiring your goalie to get a shutout every game to not go to OT or a SO is ridiculous. I don't care how many chances guys like Bjugstad or Simon create. I don't care how nice of a scouting report guys like Schultz have. I don't care how many points Kessel has on the year. Their play right now is unacceptable because they're not putting the puck in the net.

@Empoleon8771 channeling his inner me.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think Phil's issues are almost entirely in his head. He's probably lost a step, but confidence is absurdly important to a scorer like Phil. Exponentially more so to Phil specifically, since he's never been one to wrangle in his emotions and be able to curtail his frustrations. His confidence is shot and his emotions are running the show.

I think he can snap out of it, and I think he's got to play until he does, but I'm also perfectly fine with moving him this summer because of the impending drop off with age--a drop off that coincides with the impending drop off of Sid and Geno. Can't have all three on the roster as they begin their decline. That's way too much money.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Perspective from a fan who didn't watch the game:

In a tight playoff race with Malkin out, we take 2 points however we can get them.

 

[Common Sense]

Whenever I start getting frustrated at this team for its problems I just think that I could be a Jackets fan right now and all of a sudden I’m more thankful.

 

[cygnus47]

It's just so strange that Duchene just seems to bring losses wherever he goes. He's a great player, good defensively, can PK, skates hard and goes to the net, legit offensive production everywhere he goes. He seems like the sort of player that could just lead with their play but somehow everywhere he goes he just loses...

 

[BrookswasHere44]

I love Bjugs

 

[WayneSid9987]

It's just so strange that Duchene just seems to bring losses wherever he goes. He's a great player, good defensively, can PK, skates hard and goes to the net, legit offensive production everywhere he goes. He seems like the sort of player that could just lead with their play but somehow everywhere he goes he just loses...

I find he's a pretty soft player.
Even on Team Canada when the stakes are high, he's sorta just...there. Good player but doesn't stand out like say a ROR.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Am I the only one here that hopes Olli isn't just thrown into the line-up when he's cleared? I like the look of the D as it is. To me, Olli is the weak link here.

It's tricky.
I think the current group is best for leaning on guys in the DZ but Olli MIGHT just help in key areas like better exits/better offensive support.

It were me, i wouldn't put him in til i knew we won't face Tampa in RD1. Totally fine testing him out after that.

all dmen played great tonight. Inserting Maatta into the lineup would be a DISASTER

It could be.
I'm willing to try it out, like i said, once i knew facing Tampa was out of the way.

The fact that people are happy with our blue line as it is baffles the hell out of me. It does well at one thing and that's collapsing around the net. Its contribution to attack is next to non-existent. The fact that more people aren't jumping up and down about the attack also baffles me.



I get someone wanting Gudbranson because he's currently on fire and RD vs LD, but Maatta vs Johnson should really be a really easy decision.

Like i said above, it's tricky.
In the end, they may just throw in Olli for MP anyway so we'll get a trial by fire.
I totally get the wanting of JJ out/Olli in tho no matter what the consequence might be.

 

[canadianguy77]

It's just so strange that Duchene just seems to bring losses wherever he goes. He's a great player, good defensively, can PK, skates hard and goes to the net, legit offensive production everywhere he goes. He seems like the sort of player that could just lead with their play but somehow everywhere he goes he just loses...

Expectations were/are too high for that draft. JT was supposed to be the next Sid, and Hedman was supposed to be the next Pronger. Neither came close to happening.

Duchene came after both of those guys.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It would be for Pettersson though, and I think you know that.

Logically though, and you all know my vigorous disdain for Maatta, it would make sense to take out a guy like Johnson for a couple of games and get Maatta in for 2-3 games. Johnson takes a lot of hits, it wouldn't be a bad thing to rest him for a few games before the playoffs to get him some time to heal up.



I can't believe I said that.

Dumoulin, Letang
Maatta, Schultz
Pettersson, Gudbranson

I won't like it, but I can live with it for a couple of games.

 

[chethejet]

Olli is better than petts but the fact is that third pairing is playing well. I do rest JJ and Dumo and Olli can play with Schultz and Letang for a couple of games. But in the end, Olli is a trade chip in the off season. Kessel with Malkin may still be a playoff tested pairing and be the line most want. But yes Kessel stupid iron man streak is useless as it pertains to actually be the best player for the playoffs. He just has less juice and needs to realize he needs to sit a couple out. He will be a good pickup in the off season for a team needing a really good second line RW.

 

[Peat]

Don’t mean to be a dick at all but honestly can’t say I agree with this.

The superstars have to score to win a Cup regardless of other areas of the team. That’s why they are who they are. Would say that for any team. The goalie has to be great to win a Cup. Again, same with any team.

You can't expect them to do it every night to such a degree. It isn't long term tenable to rely on a ~.95 save percentage just to get you to Overtime. It isn't long term tenable to rely on two players to score 40% of your goals. Or to rely on the Power Play to go goal a game. Because sooner or later they will slip and you'll start getting losses.

As far as the D play, check the heat map for tonight. Nashville got crushed. 5v5, all situations. They’re pressuring the slot very well imo. Defending zone entries haven’t stuck out to me like earlier in the year, so don’t see much there. Exits seem completely fine, maybe we’re not getting these sick controlled breakouts, but they’re getting the puck out consistently without turning it over.

And yet it ended 1-1 with Murray having to make a lot of saves, some of them very smart, so that wasn't good enough.

The point has gone totally unpressured at vital moments. The exits are mostly slow, allowing the opposition time to rally and take away grade A opportunities. It beats failing to exit at all but it shouldn't be happening in a unit considered beyond improvement.

Offense will come. They’re missing one of the best to ever play the game right now, a guy their team is built around AND they’re running into hot goalies. Line 3 is due for some to start going in.

Will it? I feel like we've been saying this for a while. We were saying it when Malkin was here too - in fact he was one of the chief culprits. And one of the realities of constantly running into hot goalies is you've got to look at what you're doing and ask why are they so hot. Is it because our dmen can't shoot or make o-zone plays, that we don't move the goaltender around, don't elevate pucks when we shoot, and don't generate Grade A opportunities unless our forecheck is on fire? Partially yes. I'm sure some goals will come eventually... and then dry up again unless we change what we're doing.

As we saw right after the TDL, it’s very possible for the team to play a simpler, structured 200 ft game and score. I think that’s the best path to a Cup. I don’t see this roster as the type that’s gonna play a up and down, let’s trade chances and out-talent you style anymore.

Sure... if Sid's on fire, the PP's on fire, and all the ENers go in.

Elsewise... the team needs to pick option 3 from the two you're presenting. And maybe this team's defence isn't capable of doing that. But that would strike me as a really good reason not to be happy with them.

Goalscoring starts from the back. This team is currently awful at goalscoring. Don't be happy with awful.

Stats don’t necessarily agree with you. Schultz is doing better with JJ than away from him.

Last season Maatta/Schultz
Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

This season JJ/Schultz
Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

It is currently true that Schultz's results are better away from JJ. However, that's a small sample featuring Schultz doing a lot worse than we know he can; while Schultz with JJ is also Schultz doing a lot worse than we know he can, but its a lot larger. Its a change to look at.

Also by the eye test its hideous.

 

[LittleSpoon]

Thought Phil had a great game last night. Glorious chance after glorious chance. Hang in there bud, one will go in soon. Same thing with horny last night too. Defense looked solid, and Murray played lights out minus one blemish. JJ looks great, as does Guds. Keep Maatta on the bench until given a reason not to. Leave lines like they are and let the chemistry keep building. Except once we are able to get Wilson out it should be done. Plays a solid try hards game, but I feel that as well as that line does to keep it in the ozone, you just know that nothing is gonna come from it other than maybe tiring out their guys a little bit. I’d rather a goal here and there.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Reading this thread, itseems they played well. Thats a good sign that they can hang with a team like the preds.

Keep it up. Only points back of the caps.