Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Jets - How to play Defense 101

[dueling mullets]

Orpik was bad two years ago, really bad last year, and it only looks worse this year because he doesn't have Martin covering for him. His decline isn't that rapid, he's been awful for three years running.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Orpik was bad two years ago, really bad last year, and it only looks worse this year because he doesn't have Martin covering for him. His decline isn't that rapid, he's been awful for three years running.

He's been on a downward turn, yes, but I think his descent was also overplayed greatly by this board until this year.

Last year he looked bad because he looked indifferent, this year it looks like he's trying and still looks worse.

 

[Michael8771*]

Orpik was bad two years ago, really bad last year, and it only looks worse this year because he doesn't have Martin covering for him. His decline isn't that rapid, he's been awful for three years running.

I don't believe he was that bad a couple years ago. I respectfully disagree, this year and maybe the latter part of last year he took a big step backward.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The most disturbing thing about Orpik's decline, to me, is looking at Martin and Scuderi. Scuderi is over a year and a half older and Martin is less than half a year younger. You wouldn't think that with the way Orpik has declined compared to them, and Orpik's decline isn't something new. Martin and Scuderi still look fine, Martin was having a great season before the injury bug got him and Scuderi was Scuderi before he got injured. I know, I know, physical style of play, but Jesus. The last years of Scuderi's contract got talked about, but if Orpik gets extended, think about the final years of his.

I'm pretty sure that Oprik's physical play is catching up to him.

 

[mpp9]

I think most of us assumed Orpik was declining the past couple years. But we all let it go b/c he was "pacing himself" for the postseason. I'll give him that he had a pretty good playoffs last season. But now he's in a contract year, is forced to play well and looks even worse than before.

If we re-sign him, Shero's lost me.

 

[dueling mullets]

I don't believe he was that bad a couple years ago. I respectfully disagree, this year and maybe the latter part of last year he took a big step backward.

Fair enough, his actual hockey play didn't take a stark dip until the time you mentioed, although I'd argue it was getting slowly worse. However, I always thought his physicality was what made him a good player since his defense was only above average. He hasn't been all that physical, to me, for three years now, and his defense is now pretty poor. Every once in a blue moon, he may lay a big hit, or even land a check, but it's sad to see a shell of his former self out there. Struggles with board battles, can't clear the crease ever, can't clear the puck half the time.

Edit: He did used to be one of my favorite players. However, his play, along with his comments of saving himself for the post season makes me sick. Especially since the guys that are the Pen's stars have been getting hurt. Orpik on cruise control while Malkin and Crosby playing their hearts out and killing themselves in the regular season. That doesn't stand for me in any sport or facet of life. Give it all or sit on the bench. Half ass in practice, not a game.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'm not gonna throw the possibility of Orpik rebounding from his poor play out of the window just yet, but clearly he's had a very difficult season. I for one believe if he's met his demise it can be attributed largely to his physical play over the years. You mentioned it yourself. I really believe it's that simple.

I'm going to throw it out the window, he won't be consistently good again. He might suck less, but that's not really rebounding. He might look better in a different system, but he's physically done. His physicality was his greatest strength and that's not something he can still consistently bring.

Orpik plays a much more physically demanding game than Martin or Scuderi, though. It's not surprising that he hasn't aged into his mid-30s like a fine Port...but I don't think anyone expected the rapid deceleration that he's had in a contract year.

I'm not saying that the physical play didn't heavily contribute to it or that it's not why they look better, just to think about it in regards to a contract extension. I think that rate of decline still shocking even with the physical play, he really fell off a cliff this season. You just wouldn't think that's how their ages shook out.

Where will Brooks Orpik be when he's 35 or 37? It's not a pretty thought. I want no part of it.

 

[Penguinzilla*]

+Letang. He made a creative play on the PP for Neal's goal! That's what he needs to do.
- Bylsma. Just because. Crosby's new winger is Frodo Baggins. Or maybe Shero needs the minus? How hard is it to get a winger for the best player in hockey? Seriously. Just a winger that isn't totally terrible at hockey. WTF. God. Jezz. Jesus. Ok, Shero got Crosby Iginla and Bylsma put him on the 3rd line LW or something random, so it's no Shero's fault. I asf##$#$#

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I'm not saying that the physical play didn't heavily contribute to it or that it's not why they look better, just to think about it in regards to a contract extension. I think that rate of decline still shocking even with the physical play, he really fell off a cliff this season. You just wouldn't think that's how their ages shook out.

Where will Brooks Orpik be when he's 35 or 37? It's not a pretty thought. I want no part of it.

Considering I was probably the last 'Orpik still serves a purpose' peg to fall, you're not really arguing with anyone on that point.

If Shero re-signs Orpik he's lost me. I'll forever love Orpik, but at some point you have to realize where the end is. This is what made the Steelers so good for so long, the knowing of when to cut the rope...so far that has proven to be Shero's biggest weakness. Maybe Brooks serves a purpose as a third pairing 14 minutes a night guy, but not at the minutes he's getting now, not over the youngsters we have (going forward...unlike most I'm not demanding he be dealt, I just want to see his role reduced and then see him walk in free agency), and certainly not at the cap hit he's going to inevitably come with.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Orpik plays a much more physically demanding game than Martin or Scuderi, though. It's not surprising that he hasn't aged into his mid-30s like a fine Port...but I don't think anyone expected the rapid deceleration that he's had in a contract year.

Better he declines in a contract year than say, next season after a new deal.

It's tough watching one of my all time favs lose it, but I've seen it with my other ones as well like Kovy and Joe Mullen.

It's painfully obvious Orpik needs to be in a third pairing role where he will be more effective and Despres should be playing top four minutes NOW. This way he can be ready come playoff time and Orpik can become more expendable at the deadline.

They can't keep holding Despres back. Not only does it hurt Despres, but it makes the lineup inferior when he is held out. Yet somehow DB doesn't get it.

It's getting ridiculous.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

+Letang. He made a creative play on the PP for Neal's goal! That's what he needs to do.
- Bylsma. Just because. Crosby's new winger is Frodo Baggins. Or maybe Shero needs the minus? How hard is it to get a winger for the best player in hockey? Seriously. Just a winger that isn't totally terrible at hockey. WTF. God. Jezz. Jesus. Ok, Shero got Crosby Iginla and Bylsma put him on the 3rd line LW or something random, so it's no Shero's fault. I asf##$#$#

Well the cap did go down, and we used the money to sign our core long term. With the cap going up to $71 million I believe that THIS is the offseason that we finally address the wing situation with a long term solution.

Then again I have believed that often in the past.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Considering I was probably the last 'Orpik still serves a purpose' peg to fall, you're not really arguing with anyone on that point.

If Shero re-signs Orpik he's lost me.

I'm not arguing, I'm just stating.


I can't sleep... again.

 

[Tender Rip]

Better he declines in a contract year than say, next season after a new deal.

It's tough watching one of my all time favs lose it, but I've seen it with my other ones as well like Kovy and Joe Mullen.

It's painfully obvious Orpik needs to be in a third pairing role where he will be more effective and Despres should be playing top four minutes NOW. This way he can be ready come playoff time and Orpik can become more expendable at the deadline.

They can't keep holding Despres back. Not only does it hurt Despres, but it makes the lineup inferior when he is held out. Yet somehow DB doesn't get it.

It's getting ridiculous.

I certainly agree with all of that, but what is more ridiculous than Despres sitting for Orpik is Despres sitting for Engelland after a Rangers game where the Despres/Orpik pairing was very good and Engelland looked more than decent as a 4th line forward.

Shero and Bylsma are committed to Orpik this season. I think we all know this, and that long Burnside article about the US Olympic selection should drive it home.
But for Bylsma to prioritize Engelland, the prototypical 7th D-man on a deep D, that drives home just how unfair DB is with Despres. And how radical a double standard exist.

Outside of the Despres situation (one could mention Bortuzzo as well of course, as he has also been very good), the best example of this double standard remains Gladams, because on D at least the kids are up against some quality guys for spots.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I certainly agree with all of that, but what is more ridiculous than Despres sitting for Orpik is Despres sitting for Engelland after a Rangers game where the Despres/Orpik pairing was very good and Engelland looked more than decent as a 4th line forward.

Shero and Bylsma are committed to Orpik this season. I think we all know this, and that long Burnside article about the US Olympic selection should drive it home.
But for Bylsma to prioritize Engelland, the prototypical 7th D-man on a deep D, that drives home just how unfair DB is with Despres. And how radical a double standard exist.

Outside of the Despres situation (one could mention Bortuzzo as well of course, as he has also been very good), the best example of this double standard remains Gladams, because on D at least the kids are up against some quality guys for spots.

After the last four games and the **** I have seen Quicksand get away with... Atrocious turnovers, stupid penalties, piled on top of him being a complete zero 5-5, it's a far away dream he ever sits. We all see it, but not DB. That cat literally can do no wrong through DB's steamy glasses.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's getting ridiculous.

This statement can be applied to a lot of things this organization does lately, sadly.

For me, the question always is: how can they not see the decline of these players?

We joke about them, even mock them, but Shero, Bylsma and Co. are paid big dollars to know this stuff. They're not stupid people. Yet, Orpik is still a key cog and logging 20+ minutes a night, Dupuis is glued to Crosby's wing, and Gladams is utilized as the shutdown duo.

What does the club see in these guys that I'm missing?

 

[billybudd]

Maatta needs a rest. Despres should be in his spot for 5 games or so...maybe even more. Maatta, aside from the rest, could also probably use some work from up top, seeing the game at that level. I know many NHL'ers have said it has helped them when they were forced to sit up in the box due to injury. It's just a different perspective.

I wouldn't want to sit Maata for five consecutive games.

But it's a joke that Despres is scratched while Mr "It's the other guy's fault" Olympian is booting soft little feathers up the wall and getting stuck out there for 3 minutes on 50% of his shifts.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The sad thing is that once most of even the greats hit 30, they decline. Oh they still put up great numbers, comparatively to everyone else, but compared to what they did in their mid 20's, often there is a decline. We have maybe 3 more years of these guys at their peak. Wasting it is such a sin, and will be something we will spend out lives talking aobut might have beens.

 

[madinsomniac]

When I was a senior in high school the varsity Soccer team had an large amount of Seniors and juniors on it, we had a few very young kids on the squad, kids that were basically JV level but were really, really good. They never played. During a blowout loss the coach inserted the JVrs in for the last 20 minutes or so, The forward center scored twice. Several games later he went in late in a game we were winning and scored again.

When I asked the coach about why we didn't use him more, he simply said he would have his shot in the future, but the seniors needed to play now... It was a stupid decision then, and a stupid one now. There are times when experience matters, particularly on a young team with few guys who have been through the wars, but typically talent needs to play, and play a lot... that way they get experience.

If Dan bylsma honestly told Rossi that he isn't playing Despres because of inconsistency in his play, then Bylsma is either Blind or stupid, or doesn't watch tape of any of his Vet defensemen. Orpik has either been dogging it all season or is just done. Engellend makes several bad plays a game. Niskanen has had many games where poor decisions fail to convert to scores and he is destroyed in the crease, but doesn't give up a goal. Despres plays better than any of them right now.

Bortuzzo does everything Orpik and engellend are supposed to do. Matta is what Nisky ought to be. Evven Letang hasn't been a good fit to the new defensive structure, because it doesn't accentuate his skating with the puck as it should... The young guys are simply better right now... and they have to wait because guys like Engellend, who is a good guy and served the team well as a low level defenseman, has put in the time... its a bad and foolish philosophy.

These two are big and physical defensemen who were scratched every game of the Bruins series last year... so Mark eaton and Engellend could play? Heck they could have sat the non physical Niskanen, who was a minus player in every one of those games except the last, where engellend gave up the goal...

Its just stupid how this team sees players...

 

[stardog]

The most disturbing thing about Orpik's decline, to me, is looking at Martin and Scuderi. Scuderi is over a year and a half older and Martin is less than half a year younger. You wouldn't think that with the way Orpik has declined compared to them, and Orpik's decline isn't something new. Martin and Scuderi still look fine, Martin was having a great season before the injury bug got him and Scuderi was Scuderi before he got injured. I know, I know, physical style of play, but Jesus. The last years of Scuderi's contract got talked about, but if Orpik gets extended, think about the final years of his.

And this concerns me as well. To the point of actual hatred and loathing if he is resigned (I kid, I kid...kind of). Yet here we are. A few days removed from the revelation that our brilliant coach still thinks that he is one of the best in the business still. And this is a coach with a history of favoritism, a lack of accountability for vets as well as a guy who refuses to play better rookies over declining vets.
Given all of that I find it hard pressed to convince me that the Penguins will actually let him walk. E5. Brooksie gets 2 years sometime between now and August.

 

[jmelm]

+ Kris Letang: was easily our best Dman all the way around this game. The play he made on Neal's goal is one of the best plays of the year, and one that only a small handful of Dmen (or even most players at any position) would make. Amazing, especially for his first game back. I hope he keeps this up and that his critics are silenced.


- Scratching Despres and Bortuzzo. Scratching Despres after arguably the best game of his career is not a good move any way you slice it; and Bortuzzo has been solid and also deserves to play. Simple solution: scratch Sill and keep Engelland at forward, so Despres can play. Heck, Maatta has been great this season (and even today was good), but has had some rough patches recently, which is to be expected. Sitting him for a game or two to help get these guys in would not be a problem. I get that there's no perfect solution when you have only 1 or 2 spots for 3 players, but scratching a guy after such a great performance (Despres) is just the wrong message to send to that player, and to all other players on the team.


I'd be very curious to know, even though I don't believe Shero has the balls to do it, if we wouldn't be at least as good if we traded Orpik (to say nothing of a sizable return we could get) and have Despres or Maatta take his place with Martin, and the other with Bort or Niskanen? Would we really be a worse team? Is it not conceivable that we might be even better?


Scuderi--Letang
Despres/Maatta--Martin
Maatta/Despres--Bortuzzo/Niskanen
Engelland

 

[Tender Rip]

+ Kris Letang: was easily our best Dman all the way around this game. The play he made on Neal's goal is one of the best plays of the year, and one that only a small handful of Dmen (or even most players at any position) would make. Amazing, especially for his first game back. I hope he keeps this up and that his critics are silenced.

You forgot the first period, I think, because Letang was terrible there.
Niskanen was our best all round D-man yesterday because he did well in every part of the game and wasn't a liability at any point - Maatta however had his moments again. Letang was second best and had quite a number of good plays, but being better than the rest of the group didn't say much yesterday and certainly his performance was a long way away from where we'd want him to be.

- Scratching Despres and Bortuzzo. Scratching Despres after arguably the best game of his career is not a good move any way you slice it; and Bortuzzo has been solid and also deserves to play.

Truth.

Simple solution: scratch Sill and keep Engelland at forward, so Despres can play.

Well, more like 'realistic' solution. Sill is doing so much better than Adams and Glass it isn't even funny.

I'd be very curious to know, even though I don't believe Shero has the balls to do it, if we wouldn't be at least as good if we traded Orpik (to say nothing of a sizable return we could get) and have Despres or Maatta take his place with Martin, and the other with Bort or Niskanen? Would we really be a worse team? Is it not conceivable that we might be even better?

We would be better and no, you are right, Shero isn't going to do it. The way he and Bylsma obviously pulled for Orpik for team USA says enough about that.

Scuderi--Letang
Despres/Maatta--Martin
Maatta/Despres--Bortuzzo/Niskanen
Engelland

Yes, exactly. But in a pinch one could deal any of the other upcoming UFA D-men also depending on the return. If Engelland is going to be prioritized over Despres and Bortuzzo, he is worth more to us bringing a draft pick back.

 

[Cardboard Orpik]

The list of wingers plugging that hole on Sid's line until Bennett gets back is going to be hilarious.

 

[Tender Rip]

A funny tidbit from the Jets forum:

"Tanner Glass had CF% of 0 and Corsi Rel % of -52.9%"


This is a serious accomplishment. It suggests that you are parked in a wheel chair in your own zone.

 

[cygnus47]

A funny tidbit from the Jets forum:

"Tanner Glass had CF% of 0 and Corsi Rel % of -52.9%"


This is a serious accomplishment. It suggests that you are parked in a wheel chair in your own zone.

He follows the x's and o's (which I bet Bylsma loves) and doesn't bother to watch the play or his man so he's always 2 steps further away from the puck than he should be. He shouldn't be in the NHL, though he'd probably dominate the AHL physically.

 

[BHD]

Orpik is going to be signed to an extension by February. You all know it.