Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Isles - YIKES

[Darth Vitale]

God, I felt horrible last night but the first thing I thought when he smashed into the boards was "Please let him be injured"

Yeah, I had that same mixed reaction.

You guys are brutal. Funny, but brutal.

Just on KDKA:

Kennedy on the 4th line, Jeffrey up with Neal and Malkin at practice today.

Band-aid but whatever. Typical Byslma fix. Don't change the gameplan, change the lines.
Jeffrey has in the past had some really good games so I'm not going to write him off yet, but he won't get the necessary time to mesh with those guys anyway. As soon as Kennedy has a "hungry game" on line 4 and Jeffrey has a couple bad giveaways, the next game Kennedy will be on Line 2. It's a ****ing joke the way this team is run right now.

 

[bradshaw06]

Those lines will change 50 times before the first intermission.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Before the year started, I don't think anyone (outside the usual suspects like me) envision Bylsma learning nothing from the last quarter of last season.

This goes back to whether you believe 6 games into a season that started in a very unusual way is enough to give one a representative impression of what a team will do throughout the year.

Like I said earlier, so far this year Marleau is the league MVP, Martin is better than Suter, and the Isles are superior to Philly.

I wouldn't count on those statements remaining true all year either.

Oh, by the way, the game before the game that led to Therrien being fired was a 2-1 OT win over San Jose (Therrien actually was 3-2 in his last five games and 7-12-1 before then . . . it included a five game losing streak about five weeks before his termination, and the team was .500 after that). So, his last 25 games, with a top six that included Sykora, Satan, Dupuis, and Fedotenko AND a defense without Gonchar or Whitney AND Crosby dealing with groin injuries, Therrien went 10-14-1. Oh, and in his last 15 games, Therrien was 7-7-1.

The trend then included surprising wins against strong teams (NYR, Anaheim, San Jose) and really flat efforts other times. Sound familiar?

From the Philly game on March 18, when the Pens blew a first period lead (Sid's third game back), the Pens record is 12-10.

Frankly, this makes the case WORSE for Bylsma that I initially assumed. Therrien had SO MUCH LESS to work with and only had 1 point less than Bylsma has in his last 15 games).

Hey, thanks for making me go through that exercise. I hadn't realized how much more profound the case against Bylsma actually was.

RESULTS MATTER, AND THERRIEN IN HIS LAST 15 GAMES DID JUST ABOUT AS MUCH AS BYLSMA HAS DONE IN HIS LAST 15 GAMES, EXCEPT THERRIEN DID IT WITH A LOT LESS. YESTERDAY'S GAME WAS TORONTO REDUX, EVEN IF SHERO FAILS TO SEE ALL THE PARALLELS.

KIRK, you conveniently neglect to mention that not only were 6 of DB's 25 games in a heated playoff battle against a formidable rival (rather than mid-season tilts against a wide quality spectrum of teams), but the 25 games split seasons where the last 6 have come with little camp and no pre-season. The situations are not analogous.

Honest question here:

How many points do you think we'll have after 15 games?

 

[JTG]

We need a guy like Chris Stewart, I think. Someone who is really hard to handle in front of the net, and can draw guys away from the perimeter, but also someone who is a right handed shot, can find that soft spots in the slot and let it rip.

The PP needs to be dumbed down. These are the points I'll make about the PP, and what I've seen other teams do that has worked well.

1. I don't like the fact that we have a guy lugging the puck from behind the net all the way up the ice. It makes no sense to have 4 guys standing stationary while one guy tries to get it across the blue line. I think Letang should pick the puck up with speed, should hit Geno with speed, and then Geno can carry it in deep. Point here...with speed, and in deep.

2. This powerplay needs to create some isolation plays where we can work 1 guy with 2 players. I think this would work particularly well down low with Sid, Geno, and Neal, where they can work some give and go's and can set defensemen up. I don't personally feel the puck should ever really go up to the point, and if it does, it should be going right back down as fast as it comes up. Keep things as low as possible.

3. We have got to find a net front presence as I've said above. A guy who can take some attention away from the perimeter, but also has a shot where he can let it go from the slot. Ideally, as I said, Chris Stewart I think would work wonders. How I see it working, Stewart would go opposite of the puck. If the puck is high, he's standing at the top of the crease. If the puck is low, he shifts left or right of the slot, or maybe at the top of the circles, and tries to get into a shooting position. I stated I'd like to see Stewart, but it could be anyone playing the slot.

4. If Kris Letang is playing the top point, there has got to be a dumbed down way of helping him make a decision. Whether someone has to call out for him to shoot, or if there has to be a set play...I don't know. Something has to be done to curb his triple and quintuple clutching at the point that ends up with blocked shots and pucks going the other way.

5. The staff was talking about James Neal being the rover, and that's great and all, but I think it should be 87. He should move from side to side, and represent someone to move the puck to on both walls. He should be the rover...not James Neal. That would allow Neal to move into Sid's spot and play lower and closer to the net, it would give Geno more of the wall, and if Sid were to move to the opposite side of the play, it'd open up the strong side of the ice more.

6. We have to find a way to work both walls of the powerplay. It's crucial, and this PP will never have success if we cannot run it from both sides. It's the same premise why it's so hard to score from the goal line in football. We are playing on one half of the offensive zone ever powerplay. 9 guys, in half of the offensive zone.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Just on KDKA:

Kennedy on the 4th line, Jeffrey up with Neal and Malkin at practice today.

When asked about the powerplay, all involved said that it's just been a rough 3 games, that they lack confidence, and that they are working to make changes. When asked about splitting up Sid and Geno, both disagreed that it needed to happen, along with Bylsma saying that they are not looking into splitting them up, and keeping them together is best for the unit.

Im sure im gonna get people telling me im crazy for posting this but does anybody else think it might be a good idea to either take kunitz off pp and put on despres or take letang off and put despres on for him? In the little bit of time despres has played for the pens hes showed he can get the shot on net from the point. And hes actually willing to shoot the puck unlike the other def who just pass the puck back to sid and malkin

 

[Hophog]

Im sure im gonna get people telling me im crazy for posting this but does anybody else think it might be a good idea to either take kunitz off pp and put on despres or take letang off and put despres on for him? In the little bit of time despres has played for the pens hes showed he can get the shot on net from the point. And hes actually willing to shoot the puck unlike the other def who just pass the puck back to sid and malkin

Yeah your crazy. Clearly there is nothing wrong with the guys and set up they have now. Nothing needs to change. Obviously this group and system is the best, they just need to work harder at doing the same thing, that hasn't worked, over and over again until it works

That's uncomfortably close to the definition of insanity.

 

[KIRK]

This goes back to whether you believe 6 games into a season that started in a very unusual way is enough to give one a representative impression of what a team will do throughout the year.

Like I said earlier, so far this year Marleau is the league MVP, Martin is better than Suter, and the Isles are superior to Philly.

I wouldn't count on those statements remaining true all year either.



KIRK, you conveniently neglect to mention that not only were 6 of DB's 25 games in a heated playoff battle against a formidable rival (rather than mid-season tilts against a wide quality spectrum of teams), but the 25 games split seasons where the last 6 have come with little camp and no pre-season. The situations are not analogous.

Honest question here:

How many points do you think we'll have after 15 games?

Next 9 Games: Devils (three times), Capitals (twice), Rangers, Islanders, Jets, Senators . . .

I'd call 18 points the over under (i.e., 6-3 in the next nine games).

Anything less, and my guess is that it will be because of continued skittish play (like the last 20 or so), and I think that Bylsma's future could be in immediate jeopardy if we're talking under 9 points in the next 9).

Anything more, and the team will have regained a sense of confidence (although, my guess is that it at least as likely will be a false sense of confidence as one that is justified). In this case, I think Bylsma's safe barring a major losing streak thereafter.

 

[KIRK]

We need a guy like Chris Stewart, I think. Someone who is really hard to handle in front of the net, and can draw guys away from the perimeter, but also someone who is a right handed shot, can find that soft spots in the slot and let it rip.

The PP needs to be dumbed down. These are the points I'll make about the PP, and what I've seen other teams do that has worked well.

1. I don't like the fact that we have a guy lugging the puck from behind the net all the way up the ice. It makes no sense to have 4 guys standing stationary while one guy tries to get it across the blue line. I think Letang should pick the puck up with speed, should hit Geno with speed, and then Geno can carry it in deep. Point here...with speed, and in deep.

2. This powerplay needs to create some isolation plays where we can work 1 guy with 2 players. I think this would work particularly well down low with Sid, Geno, and Neal, where they can work some give and go's and can set defensemen up. I don't personally feel the puck should ever really go up to the point, and if it does, it should be going right back down as fast as it comes up. Keep things as low as possible.

3. We have got to find a net front presence as I've said above. A guy who can take some attention away from the perimeter, but also has a shot where he can let it go from the slot. Ideally, as I said, Chris Stewart I think would work wonders. How I see it working, Stewart would go opposite of the puck. If the puck is high, he's standing at the top of the crease. If the puck is low, he shifts left or right of the slot, or maybe at the top of the circles, and tries to get into a shooting position. I stated I'd like to see Stewart, but it could be anyone playing the slot.

4. If Kris Letang is playing the top point, there has got to be a dumbed down way of helping him make a decision. Whether someone has to call out for him to shoot, or if there has to be a set play...I don't know. Something has to be done to curb his triple and quintuple clutching at the point that ends up with blocked shots and pucks going the other way.

5. The staff was talking about James Neal being the rover, and that's great and all, but I think it should be 87. He should move from side to side, and represent someone to move the puck to on both walls. He should be the rover...not James Neal. That would allow Neal to move into Sid's spot and play lower and closer to the net, it would give Geno more of the wall, and if Sid were to move to the opposite side of the play, it'd open up the strong side of the ice more.

6. We have to find a way to work both walls of the powerplay. It's crucial, and this PP will never have success if we cannot run it from both sides. It's the same premise why it's so hard to score from the goal line in football. We are playing on one half of the offensive zone ever powerplay. 9 guys, in half of the offensive zone.

7. In the offensive zone, you have to have more player movement than one player at any one time. Move multiple players (even all of them like San Jose). Stop playing checkers on the PP. Play chess. Uses pieces to attack in combination.

8. There must be puck support in the offensive zone. Players need options, and you never should find yourself in a 1 on 2 battle for the puck when you're on the PP.

9. Players have to be moving on the breakout. Come up as a unit. Provide options for the initial puck carrier. Nobody should be standing still as the puck carrier hits the blue line. When you're standing still, you're in no position to support (if the puck carrier enters) or chase (if the puck carrier dumps). The idea that Sid and/or Geno almost always is standing still at the far blueline as Letang starts lugging the puck up ice is criminal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Next 9 Games: Devils (three times), Capitals (twice), Rangers, Islanders, Jets, Senators . . .

I'd call 18 points the over under (i.e., 6-3 in the next nine games).

Anything less, and my guess is that it will be because of continued skittish play (like the last 20 or so), and I think that Bylsma's future could be in immediate jeopardy if we're talking under 9 points in the next 9).

Anything more, and the team will have regained a sense of confidence (although, my guess is that it at least as likely will be a false sense of confidence as one that is justified). In this case, I think Bylsma's safe barring a major losing streak thereafter.

Do you think the Pens will hit the over/under?

 

[KIRK]

Do you think the Pens will hit the over/under?

You'd think that they SHOULD go 6-3 or better. That's why I said the explanation for worse would be a continuation of the skittish play (and the especially glaring issues).

But, I honestly don't know how it plays out.

I mean, Sid or Geno could go God mode and save the day in a few games, and Fleury could go on one of his good regular season runs, and we could hit the over under in spite of themselves (and the coaching).

OR, the wheels could come off a little more.

OR, they could just go 7-2 or better in overwhelming fashion.

You want odds: 40% chance of the first, 40% chance of the second, 20% chance of the third.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You'd think that they SHOULD go 6-3 or better. That's why I said the explanation for worse would be a continuation of the skittish play (and the especially glaring issues).

But, I honestly don't know how it plays out.

I mean, Sid or Geno could go God mode and save the day in a few games, and Fleury could go on one of his good regular season runs, and we could hit the over under in spite of themselves (and the coaching).

OR, the wheels could come off a little more.

OR, they could just go 7-2 or better in overwhelming fashion.

You want odds: 40% chance of the first, 40% chance of the second, 20% chance of the third.

Any chance the team hits the over because they start executing better and playing cohesively, haha?

My problem with the blanket "Blame Bylsma" mantra is that completely independent of coaching/systems, the players themselves have looked like crap. They're making dumb decisions, giving garbage efforts, and can't handle the puck to save their lives. No matter how good a system might be, it would fail with the performances the Pens players have given so far this season.

It's not like the players have looked tuned-up and are giving 100% and falling short because of the system. The players are failing in good part because they personally haven't been up to snuff - and a good portion of that could very well be because of the extenuating circumstances of the start of this season.

 

[Iffyiffiffer]

The team just isn't as good overall as people thought they were. Losing Staal hurt.

Why would anyone think they were so good?

They gave up like 3+ goals nearly every game last season for over a month. It's like no one remembers or ever noticed because all the focus was on when Crosby would come back. Then they got a bit better, and then tanked for another 20+ games to end the season.

Then they and Bylsma looked stupid and utterly failed in all ways for the whateverth number of seasons in a row in the playoffs.

Why would this fix itself by one of your best players leaving and using the same coaches who can't manage to get a playoff PK or anytime PP together?

 

[themethod7]

Any chance the team hits the over because they start executing better and playing cohesively, haha?

My problem with the blanket "Blame Bylsma" mantra is that completely independent of coaching/systems, the players themselves have looked like crap. They're making dumb decisions, giving garbage efforts, and can't handle the puck to save their lives. No matter how good a system might be, it would fail with the performances the Pens players have given so far this season.

It's not like the players have looked tuned-up and are giving 100% and falling short because of the system. The players are failing in good part because they personally haven't been up to snuff - and a good portion of that could very well be because of the extenuating circumstances of the start of this season.

said it before and i'll say it again - they look like a team that's trying to get their coach fired.

 

[Crafton]

said it before and i'll say it again - they look like a team that's trying to get their coach fired.

im nearly willing to believe it. but i wonder why they want their buddy fired. the theory would make more sense if Bylsma was a disciplinarian. that the players would collectively dog it because they realize he isn't a great tactician, would be quite the revelation. i'm not quite sure the likes of Kunitz and Orpik are that prescient.

 

[KIRK]

Any chance the team hits the over because they start executing better and playing cohesively, haha?

My problem with the blanket "Blame Bylsma" mantra is that completely independent of coaching/systems, the players themselves have looked like crap. They're making dumb decisions, giving garbage efforts, and can't handle the puck to save their lives. No matter how good a system might be, it would fail with the performances the Pens players have given so far this season.

It's not like the players have looked tuned-up and are giving 100% and falling short because of the system. The players are failing in good part because they personally haven't been up to snuff - and a good portion of that could very well be because of the extenuating circumstances of the start of this season.

Here's my theory on the last part (at least as it applies to Sid and Geno): They go out, do their thing, try to play within the system, and see that it's not working (no adjustments or options on their end, the other team takes it away). So, their first instinct is to try to do more to compensate. That's when you see the recklessness and the attempts to dance three guys when it's just not there. Well, that obviously doesn't work. So, they just kind of resign themselves to going through the motions. I really do think that's what we're seeing now.

When Geno says today, about the PP, 'we want to do whatever works' and 'it's tough' and something like 'we'll see', I don't think his comments are limited to the PP. To me, that sounds like he's talking more generally and with a bit of loss for understanding of what's happening (and, I'll bet you Sid feels the same way).

The last time I saw them like this was January 2009. I remember listening to interviews with people talking about how you'd go into the locker room after a spanking on the ice, where Sid and Geno would play like they did last night, and Sid and Geno would just have looks on their faces that spoke to bewilderment that any of what was happening could be happening and complete loss of understanding of or explanation for why.

And, when it happens with them, I think it just trickles down to the rest of the team. In the same way that the team will feed of Sid and/or Geno's confidence or stellar play, I think they feed off of that bewilderment.

I've always said that a good coach will use everything in his arsenal-- tactics, bench management, motivation, etc-- to suit his players' strengths and to disguise their weaknesses. A good coach puts his players into the best possible position to make plays, and from there it's on the players.

In 2009, Dan Bylsma was a good coach in every respect. He was exactly the antidote to Therrien that the team needed. Today, I don't see how anyone can argue that Dan Bylsma puts his players in the best possible position to make plays and that even Sid and Geno's play reflects how they are reacting to being at a perceived competitive disadvantage.

Is it fair? Not 100%. Maybe they should continue to buy in and do what the system and the coach requires regardless of outcome. But, when you see it's not working (especially in the playoffs), then competitive instinct takes over and that's when the downward spiral begins.

It's not all the coach's fault. But, it's the coach's responsibility to try to arrest that process. The problem is that it's hard to recognize early enough where a coach can make a difference.

Sorry for the tangent, but I could see the next 9 games playing out in any number of ways. But, my gut says it's more likely that the Pens are .500 (or slightly below) OR Sid/Geno/Fleury save the day than it is that the Pens go on some tear because of changes in terms of Dan Bylsma's part.

said it before and i'll say it again - they look like a team that's trying to get their coach fired.

I don't think they're trying to get him fired-- in the way Orpik wanted Therrien gone-- but I do think that they're not buying what he's selling and that it starts with Sid and Geno. That comment about the PP was scary and telling . . . 'we want to do what works' and 'it's tough' smacks of a loss for understanding/explanation for the team's problems and a resignation about the ability to control events . . . i.e., we have no clue what will work and it's a tough situation because of that, but we just want to do what works. They're desperate for answers from a coach who has shown no inclination to give a different one.

 

[Hophog]

im nearly willing to believe it. but i wonder why they want their buddy fired. the theory would make more sense if Bylsma was a disciplinarian. that the players would collectively dog it because they realize he isn't a great tactician, would be quite the revelation. i'm not quite sure the likes of Kunitz and Orpik are that prescient.

It also seems odd that they'd start the season by beating the Rags and Flyers then suddenly decide it was time to put the brakes on and decide they want their coach gone. They had all off season and the lockout to make that decision and one would think that if they decided they wanted a new coach they would have begun the season with a losing streak. I find it hard to believe the players would want a new especially when you consider DB has a "player's coach" reputation. Logic would suggest that if Shero believes that's the problem than they can count on the next coach being a real ballbreaker.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Here's my theory on the last part (at least as it applies to Sid and Geno): They go out, do their thing, try to play within the system, and see that it's not working (no adjustments or options on their end, the other team takes it away). So, their first instinct is to try to do more to compensate. That's when you see the recklessness and the attempts to dance three guys when it's just not there. Well, that obviously doesn't work. So, they just kind of resign themselves to going through the motions. I really do think that's what we're seeing now.

But...it was working. We beat two quality division rivals right off the bat - the two best teams we've faced yet - and had stretches of utterly dominant play during those wins.

Not only that, but it's hardly like Sid and Geno are the only ones making elementary mistakes out there. Most of the forwards are just making goofy decisions. Kunitz, Neal, Sutter, you name it...and they're all smart hockey players. I don't think contagious idiocy is a very likely answer.

Rust, timing, and consistency seem like much more likely culprits.

The last time I saw them like this was January 2009. I remember listening to interviews with people talking about how you'd go into the locker room after a spanking on the ice, where Sid and Geno would play like they did last night, and Sid and Geno would just have looks on their faces that spoke to bewilderment that any of what was happening could be happening and complete loss of understanding of or explanation for why.

They do explain why though: execution. It's not the answer as often as Bylsma trots it out but I think it's a valid reason here, especially given the circumstances.

If our players start making and receiving simple passes and bringing the requisite compete level, and we're still struggling, then I think we can shift focus to the coaching.

You can't justifiably blame a system if it's not being executed as planned.

 

[#66]

MAF has always had problems when the play is behind the net. Montreal and especially TB exploited that weakness in the playoffs.

I'm not overly familiar with the specifics of goaltending beyond the basics, so I don't usually criticize MAF, unless it is obvious stuff.

Very true but what I'm saying is that a defensemen like Gill would have MAFs back so he could focus on the puck more. Once the Pens lost Gill and once Disco had HIS system in place MAF has to now play the shot and worry about the pass to someone back door.

The funny thing is that at the other end of the ice the Pens never put anyone back door and set up plays to go across the ice. Everything was so easy for Roloson in that TB series because every shot was funneled right into him.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

I was keeping an eye particularly on Kunitz last night and boy, he is looking so much like Fedotenko of 2009-2010 it's uncanny.

He pretty much looks like a borderline NHLer or at times even worse, the other team's 6th man.

Similarities don't end there, just like Fedotenko was glued to Malkin, he is glued to Crosby. (Thanks to DB)
Icing on the cake he is getting 1st unit PP time. (thanks to you know who)
The emphasis on playing disciplined hockey and the way boarding penalties are dished out this year has kind of neutralized his physical game as well.

However, make no mistake about it, he wasn't playing that great last year either, but what wasn't so obvious with him in a 3rd wheel role (with Neal and Malkin playing their 2 man game), is magnified on a struggling line where he is asked to play a role that goes beyond 3rd wheel duty.
To sum this up, by playing him on Crosby's line they're in fact asking more out of a player worse than he was last year.

BTW, I hope he hasn't lost a step but it sure looks like it.

Oh, and flying under the radar as one of the most useless winger at the moment is Cooke, he's killing the 3rd line but I don't expect Bylsma to treat him any differently than #14.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

But...it was working. We beat two quality division rivals right off the bat - the two best teams we've faced yet - and had stretches of utterly dominant play during those wins.

That's sarcasm, right? These teams were without a doubt the worst teams we've faced so far.(the Rangers especially were completely out of sync)

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's sarcasm, right? These teams were without a doubt the worst teams we've faced so far.(the Rangers especially were completely out of sync)

I don't make definitive judgements on teams based on the first week of an abbreviated regular season.

Shocking, I know.

 

[ColePens]

I don't make definitive judgements on teams based on the first week of an abbreviated regular season.

Shocking, I know.

I still think we should take the end of last year and the lack of intensity into this debate as well. I still think you have a fair point to be more patient, but not as patient as some think.

Bylsma needs to show he's different from MT here and accept things need changed. I still cannot believe we've never gone back to the Cup winning formula. If anyone could answer this for me, I'd be astonished.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I still think we should take the end of last year and the lack of intensity into this debate as well. I still think you have a fair point to be more patient, but not as patient as some think.

We know good teams can go through lulls, and I believe Sid coming back was the subconscious catalyst for ours last year. I don't think it's a coincidence that our slip in accountable play arrived with His return. We'd been rolling along great - in spite of multiple injuries to key players - under DB's system up to that point.

This year...a lot of historically very good teams look just as disoriented as we do. Some moreso.

This season's rough start might be symptomatic of bigger problems beginning late last season, or it might be the product of the abrupt start. There's too many extra variables involved this year for me to judge based on two weeks of play.

Bylsma needs to show he's different from MT here and accept things need changed. I still cannot believe we've never gone back to the Cup winning formula. If anyone could answer this for me, I'd be astonished.

I can't comment on a lot of the finer systemic details of the game, but I can see when players are losing 50/50 battles, making low-percentage plays, hesitating where instinct usually takes over, and can't make or receive passes without a lot of fumbling. Those are execution issues, and I know you agree with me here.

I want to see what a well-oiled Pens team can do with what Bylsma has planned for this season before I start calling for his head (he's claimed to make some adaptive tweaks). No system would look good with the performances the Pens have put out so far.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Does anybody think Laviolette should be fired?

The Flyers' record over the last 25 games is 10-14-1.

How about Tortorella?

The Rags are 12-13 in their last 25.

Sometimes we look at our team in a bubble and ignore what's happening with the other supposedly elite teams in the division.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

I don't make definitive judgements on teams based on the first week of an abbreviated regular season.

Shocking, I know.

??
When you said

But...it was working. We beat two quality division rivals right off the bat - the two best teams we've faced yet - and had stretches of utterly dominant play during those wins.

I'm positive you were implying "at the moment we faced them" or your post doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't matter these team were better on paper that those we faced after, they were, at the moment we met them, the two worst teams we have played against so far...