Player Discussion: Cole Perfetti 10th OA pick

[Finster8]

Perfetti us nothing like Seguin in anyway. Seguin's problem was maturity not talent. Perfetti's problem is talent not maturity.

You are a liar

 

[DRW204]

Cole had a good game last night, can’t change his slump the last l will say to you is let’s hope he can help the team the rest of the year. Oh the kid has plenty of talent and that even you can’t argue that. The blame is on both more Cole but a coaches job is to motivate, develop and help all guys be more efficient. That’s what he is doing. I’m not saying Perfetti is the next Gretzky just think it helps the whole team if he gets on track for the playoffs.

Just wondering how do you think Bowness should've handled him from Dec-end of Feb?

At 5v5: He had a 0.87 pts/60 while playing primarily in a top 6 role-2nd line through those 36gp. And his highest toi/gp came in Jan.

He never played with Lowry in the defense/shut down role, and played 4th line toward the tail end. Maybe time with scheifele? But Ehlers and Connor are superior options though.

I think Bowness has been around long enough to be given the benefit of the doubt on motivating and the softer-skills/interactions with players, but could be wrong.

 

[gojetsgo]

Agreed. Idk how people are putting this on Bowness lol. Well mostly the Perfetti stans I guess. We have our best 4th line since 17-18 along with a potentially excellent top 6. This team is deep at fwd, with potentially a top line that can dominate the comp with scheifele and ehlers.

If he performed and produced he'd be playing top 6. And we probably wouldn't have traded for 2 certified top 6ers.

Perfetti had a hot start to the year, and his 5v5 pts/60 has trended down each month thereafter, while playing primarily in a top 6 offensive role. He actually received his most 5v5 toi/gp in January too so its not like they shafted him completely. he wasn't really adding anything. I don't agree with Iafallo being a top 6er either for the record, bc I know that "well what about" is a commonly brought up.

I hate that when you mention that perfetti shouldn't be in the top 6 role people always bring up iaffalo, we know he shouldn't be in a top 6 role... so does the coaching staff as well... that's why iaffalo was the first 1 out of the top 6 over perfetti when we got monahan, that's why we traded for toffoli at the deadline

 

[Finster8]

Done you are right l am wrong lmao

 

[DRW204]

I hate that when you mention that perfetti shouldn't be in the top 6 role people always bring up iaffalo, we know he shouldn't be in a top 6 role... so does the coaching staff as well... that's why iaffalo was the first 1 out of the top 6 over perfetti when we got monahan, that's why we traded for toffoli at the deadline

The what aboutisms or deflections are always strong and prevalent.

It's not even just Iafallo... Look at this shit below.

Can't understand why kc or pld may be afforded more leeway and top 6 time... Like really?

So what's Bones excuse then for leaving the current iteration of that line together. They suck but they get to keep sucking because they are vets.

Same thing happened with KC last year who stunk up the joint the entire second half of the year but kept getting top 6 minutes. Ditto for Dubois.

Lowry and Appelton also stunk the entire second half last year and didn't get their minutes cut.

Double standard is a double standard. But coaches really only have the guts to scratch young players. Which imo isn't guts at all.

 

[Buffdog]

I'm curious as to what people think happens at the NHL level between coaches and players regarding communications and expectations

If Bones demoted Cole to the 4th line for any reason, I'd be fairly certain that he called him into his office and explained exactly why and what his expectations are for him to move back up the line up. If it wasn't done explicitly, then the door would always be open for Cole to walk in and ask

With services like InStat and similar, each player in the NHL will have a video package of every one of their shifts in their inbox by the time they're done with their cool down after each game. Coaches will point out specific deficiencies to players to work on

The last unknown is the state of Cole's wrist. Depending on the type of injury, those can be notoriously nagging.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Iafallo is there for some defensive integrity on that line.
He has played with Toffoli before as well.

Yeah, I knew that. And I knew as soon as I posted that that Iafallo would score last night too.
You're welcome.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I feel ya. Got lit Saturday night, then couple litres of coffee and the time change Sunday really screwed my sleep.


It was pointed out that Perfetti did get a chance with Monahan to start and performed pretty unspectacularly. I agree on iafallo, he's been non-productive too, Esp considering role /toi.

Neither are top 6 worthy atm. I'd like to see Barron given an opportunity given how he's done in a 4th line role. I think he does the minimums that Iafallo can, while adding speed, size and has scored pretty well given his role/toi.

How long did Perfetti get with Monahan? Not long.

Perfetti's underlying numbers have remained pretty good right through his slump. He has been good on the 4th line, creating chances.

Iafallo might actually return to life on that line, we'll see. But as soon as Vilardi gets back he will be back on the 4th line.

I'd like to see Barron get an opportunity further up. Lets see what he can do.

 

[raideralex99]

I'm curious as to what people think happens at the NHL level between coaches and players regarding communications and expectations

If Bones demoted Cole to the 4th line for any reason, I'd be fairly certain that he called him into his office and explained exactly why and what his expectations are for him to move back up the line up. If it wasn't done explicitly, then the door would always be open for Cole to walk in and ask

With services like InStat and similar, each player in the NHL will have a video package of every one of their shifts in their inbox by the time they're done with their cool down after each game. Coaches will point out specific deficiencies to players to work on

The last unknown is the state of Cole's wrist. Depending on the type of injury, those can be notoriously nagging.

Obviously a good coach will tell the players what they did wrong and why the moves and what they need to do better.
In fact Bones did tell Perfetti he was going to have a few shifts on the second but because the fourth line was playing so good he did get more ice time 12:09 mins.
If the Jets were out of the playoffs ... Perfetti would get top 6 mins and I bet Heinola would even be up playing and the rest of the rookies would get a shot too like Lambert but unfortunately the Jets are in the playoffs fighting for 1st place and there's no room to experiment and making errors.
Why do you think non playoff teams sell off so they can get their rookies playing time to see what they can do.

 

[surixon]

Yeah this story gets played out over and over again. Fan fave (usually a youngster/ prospect) isn't immediately elevated to best player on the team and there's outrage.

Cole is living this right now, and if people think he isn't intimately aware of his shortcomings and what he needs to do to get more icetime and better situational deployment - they are kidding themselves.

When Cole was playing well and producing, he was getting appropriate minutes for a sofomore with less than 100 NHL games. When his production dried up and he started struggling, and it persisted, the coaches made the right decision for the team.

That's it. The drama is with the fans, not the player or coaches.

I don't know if I agree with all of this. First the media were writing about a lack of ice time by Cole early in the year and wondering why he wasn't getting more. He was fourth on this team in scoring and top of the team in metrics through the firat 25 games. He was something like 8th among forwards in ice time and was routinely getting benched to close out games. That to me is a coach who was very slow in recognizing the players contributions and slow to trust playing the kid to close out games. This despite all the defensive data that showed he could handle it.

Reward recognition is a real thing and I don't think there was much of it by Bones the first half.

As for limiting his minutes for his struggles, I'm fine with it in a vacuum. But my issue is he doesn't hold all players to the same standard here and Cole being a Sophmore shouldn't result in him being treated differently.

 

[Jet]

I don't know if I agree with all of this. First the media were writing about a lack of ice time by Cole early in the year and wondering why he wasn't getting more. He was fourth on this team in scoring and top of the team in metrics through the firat 25 games. He was something like 8th among forwards in ice time and was routinely getting benched to close out games. That to me is a coach who was very slow in recognizing the players contributions and slow to trust playing the kid to close out games. This despite all the defensive data that showed he could handle it.

Reward recognition is a real thing and I don't think there was much of it by Bones the first half.

As for limiting his minutes for his struggles, I'm fine with it in a vacuum. But my issue is he doesn't hold all players to the same standard here and Cole being a Sophmore shouldn't result in him being treated differently.

Well I'll just disagree, then.

I'm just glad our coach seems to align with my thoughts.

I know I know 'appeal to authority' but he has 40 years experience doing this in the best league in the world.

Its also a super common practice by other coaches amongst different sports.

I like how Bones has handled the situation.

 

[surixon]

Well I'll just disagree, then.

I'm just glad our coach seems to align with my thoughts.

I know I know 'appeal to authority' but he has 40 years experience doing this in the best league in the world.

Its also a super common practice by other coaches amongst different sports.

I like how Bones has handled the situation.

That's fine. I think he earned more the first half and we shall see if Bones approach gets him back on track or not through the last 20ish games.

 

[Jet]

That's fine. I think he earned more the first half and we shall see if Bones approach gets him back on track or not through the last 20ish games.

I also think that giving Cole something to strive for could be a great motivator for next season. Might give him that extra drive to work on strength and explosiveness.

As I said earlier, I really liked his game yesterday, I saw a lot of first half Cole and I wonder out loud if the new aquisitions and his recent scratching has gotten his mindset rebooted? Hunger can really overcome other things you are thinking.

 

[Buffdog]

Well I'll just disagree, then.

I'm just glad our coach seems to align with my thoughts.

I know I know 'appeal to authority' but he has 40 years experience doing this in the best league in the world.

Its also a super common practice by other coaches amongst different sports.

I like how Bones has handled the situation.

I don't get "appeal to athority" being thrown around

We appeal to authority all the time. We trust trained pilots to fly us around. We trust surgeons to operate on us. We trust accountants to do our taxes. It would be pretty stupid for someone to pull up a couple of web pages and then perform a tonsillectomy on someone

Yet some people can't wrap their head around the idea that a guy who has been behind an NHL bench in some capacity for over 40 years has a better idea of how to handle things like line combos and playing time

It's gotta be some sort of Dunning Kruger effect

 

[surixon]

I also think that giving Cole something to strive for could be a great motivator for next season. Might give him that extra drive to work on strength and explosiveness.

As I said earlier, I really liked his game yesterday, I saw a lot of first half Cole and I wonder out loud if the new aquisitions and his recent scratching has gotten his mindset rebooted? Hunger can really overcome other things you are thinking.

As I said earlier, nothing wrong with extra motivation. I don't think his off ice training Is at all an issue though as he changed his program last summer. Scheifele was also raving about the shape he came into camp in. Might take a few offseasons for it to really show sizable gains though, just as we saw with Mark.

 

[Buffdog]

I don't know if I agree with all of this. First the media were writing about a lack of ice time by Cole early in the year and wondering why he wasn't getting more. He was fourth on this team in scoring and top of the team in metrics through the firat 25 games. He was something like 8th among forwards in ice time and was routinely getting benched to close out games. That to me is a coach who was very slow in recognizing the players contributions and slow to trust playing the kid to close out games. This despite all the defensive data that showed he could handle it.

Reward recognition is a real thing and I don't think there was much of it by Bones the first half.

As for limiting his minutes for his struggles, I'm fine with it in a vacuum. But my issue is he doesn't hold all players to the same standard here and Cole being a Sophmore shouldn't result in him being treated differently.

By "media", was is just Murat? Seems par for the course

 

[cbcwpg]

I think this all comes down to the fact that the team has a 70 year old coach with his last chance at a Cup who generally doesn't like young players and loves vets no matter what. It is what it is, but it has affected Cole's ability to produce more throughout the year. The coach does not care about his development at all because he won't be here past this season.

I don't think this is the case at all. IMO the Jets / Bowness are in a playoff position fight and hopefully a run for the Stanley Cup, and they will put out the lineup that will give the team the best chance to succeed. Bones is here to make the team succeed now, not years down the road, so yes people can argue player usage to obtain that goal, but it is the goal.

And as far as player development, the NHL is generally NOT a developmental league, unless you are out of the playoffs with no chance of making it, then teams will play the young guns more.

Take the 16 teams currently in the playoffs, and imagine Perfetti on everyone of those teams...how many of those 16 teams wouldn't have shipped him to the AHL weeks ago? I argue he is still with the Jets because they see the potential, but they will not risk team success for the benefit of one player, and that's why he's playing where he's playing.

 

[surixon]

By "media", was is just Murat? Seems par for the course

Friedman on his pod cast a number of times as well.

 

[AlphaLackey]

I don't get "appeal to athority" being thrown around

We appeal to authority all the time. We trust trained pilots to fly us around. We trust surgeons to operate on us. We trust accountants to do our taxes. It would be pretty stupid for someone to pull up a couple of web pages and then perform a tonsillectomy on someone

Yet some people can't wrap their head around the idea that a guy who has been behind an NHL bench in some capacity for over 40 years has a better idea of how to handle things like line combos and playing time

It's gotta be some sort of Dunning Kruger effect

It's not as simple as that, at least not to me.

The chances that I know more about the piloting and operation of an airplane than an experienced pilot is zero percent.

On the other hand, I could fill a medium-sized concert venue with people I've met in the casino industry (from players all the way up to casino managers) who assert their decades of experience in the industry mean they know more than I do about some aspects of our industry, banking only on superstition and half-information and conspiratorial thinking.

Ever see a grown man with silver hair in a $5k suit flicking birdseed under a craps table at one of the dealers with the genuine heartfelt belief that this would help? That doesn't even crack my top 10.

Now yes, I know that "casino industry" and "airline industry" are different; the former is soggy with superstition whereas there's none in the latter (Dr. Jason Leong's comedy routine about 'traditional pilots' not withstanding) but when it comes to sports, in terms of superstition and "traditional thinking", it's also a whole lot closer to the former than the latter. There's a lot that still gets done that's provably rubbish or just plain sub-optimal, but that's how it's been done for decades so by god, they're going to be done by practitioners for decades.

Appeal to authority is, overall, a pretty solid sign, but it's by no means infallible. And when you have people who think experience makes them infallible, well, like you said, Dunning-Kruger in action.

 

[Buffdog]

I don't think this is the case at all. IMO the Jets / Bowness are in a playoff position fight and hopefully a run for the Stanley Cup, and they will put out the lineup that will give the team the best chance to succeed. Bones is here to make the team succeed now, not years down the road, so yes people can argue player usage to obtain that goal, but it is the goal.

And as far as player development, the NHL is generally NOT a developmental league, unless you are out of the playoffs with no chance of making it, then teams will play the young guns more.

Take the 16 teams currently in the playoffs, and imagine Perfetti on everyone of those teams...how many of those 16 teams wouldn't have shipped him to the AHL weeks ago? I argue he is still with the Jets because they see the potential, but they will not risk team success for the benefit of one player, and that's why he's playing where he's playing.

This is a great point. How many cup contenders have players with as many or less carreer games played as Perfetti in their top 6 right/top 3 right now?

 

[AlphaLackey]

This is a great point. How many cup contenders have players with as many or less carreer games played as Perfetti in their top 6 right/top 3 right now?

On the other hand, I bet you many of those contenders would see a 4th line with talent like Namestnikov and Perfetti as a very good sign of a team's depth at forward. I like Perfetti a lot but he's definitely not one of our six best forwards and that third line is playing together for life, so his current positioning seems obvious.

 

[Buffdog]

It's not as simple as that, at least not to me.

The chances that I know more about the piloting and operation of an airplane than an experienced pilot is zero percent.

On the other hand, I could fill a medium-sized concert venue with people I've met in the casino industry (from players all the way up to casino managers) who assert their decades of experience in the industry mean they know more than I do, banking only on superstition and half-information and conspiratorial thinking.

Ever see a grown man with silver hair in a $5k suit flicking birdseed under a craps table at one of the dealers with the genuine heartfelt belief that this would help? That doesn't even crack my top 10.

Now yes, I know that "casino industry" and "airline industry" are different; the former is soggy with superstition whereas there's none in the latter (Dr. Jason Leong's comedy routine about 'traditional pilots' not withstanding) but when it comes to sports, in terms of superstition and "traditional thinking", it's also a whole lot closer to the former than the latter. There's a lot that still gets done that's provably rubbish or just plain sub-optimal, but that's how it's been done for decades so by god, they're going to be done by practitioners for decades.

Appeal to authority is, overall, a pretty solid sign, but it's by no means infallible. And when you have people who think experience makes them infallible, well, like you said, Dunning-Kruger in action.

OK, so let's say I read a couple of books on playing poker and then take part in some local low level poker tournaments.

Would that mean that I could step into a world poker championship and contend with guys that do it as pros? I'd last two hands... and I know that... which is why I'd never watch the pros play and think I could do a better job than them

 

[AlphaLackey]

OK, so let's say I read a couple of books on playing poker and then take part in some local low level poker tournaments.

Would that mean that I could step into a world poker championship and contend with guys that do it as pros? I'd last two hands... and I know that... which is why I'd never watch the pros play and think I could do a better job than them

I don't think you could do an overall better performance, no. But it's entirely possible that you could be ahead of your time in some way, and understand some part of the game better than even seasoned veterans. I played exactly one tournament series at that level in my life (Four Queens Classic 2002) and while wildly outclassed overall once the preliminary events had passed, I can confidently say that my understanding of (specifically) preflop short-stack play, and the mathematics behind all-in-preflop shoves, was ahead of even a couple of very experienced and elite-level successful players whose understanding of that phase was still stuck back in the 1970s.

And to relate it to hockey: no, I don't think for one minute that I could do better than any NHL coach at running the team. But it's certain that I understand coaches challenge math better than most of them (Rob Brind'amour who apparently has a lifetime record of 7-20 might be the only one close, and the PBP guys made fun of him for it). I'm confident, but less certain, about goaltender pulling math.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

I don't get "appeal to athority" being thrown around

We appeal to authority all the time. We trust trained pilots to fly us around. We trust surgeons to operate on us. We trust accountants to do our taxes. It would be pretty stupid for someone to pull up a couple of web pages and then perform a tonsillectomy on someone

Yet some people can't wrap their head around the idea that a guy who has been behind an NHL bench in some capacity for over 40 years has a better idea of how to handle things like line combos and playing time

It's gotta be some sort of Dunning Kruger effect

I just spent 30 seconds googling Dunning-Kruger effect and I am now an expert on the topic!

 

[scelaton]

I don't get "appeal to athority" being thrown around

We appeal to authority all the time. We trust trained pilots to fly us around. We trust surgeons to operate on us. We trust accountants to do our taxes. It would be pretty stupid for someone to pull up a couple of web pages and then perform a tonsillectomy on someone

Yet some people can't wrap their head around the idea that a guy who has been behind an NHL bench in some capacity for over 40 years has a better idea of how to handle things like line combos and playing time

It's gotta be some sort of Dunning Kruger effect

There are some weaknesses with this line of reasoning. Both pilots and surgeons are formally trained and closely evaluated throughout their careers--using advanced metrics, believe it or not.
The process is far more old school with hiring, evaluating and firing NHL coaches. Coaching is not rocket science and, unlike the professions, there is now a plethora of publicly available data.

Also, when a co-pilot or surgical assistant sees someone in authority making a mistake, they are now taught to challenge them, for the sake of the passenger/patient. We know from case studies that traditional appeals to authority can costs lives. In that sense, we are all just virtual co-pilots, trying to prevent the playoff Jets plane from crashing.

Another interesting point is that you will find very few pilots or surgeons engaged in the most challenging cases/flights beyond the age of 65, often well earlier. This is because, as we age, we have more difficulty with gruelling schedules, with assimilating and responding to new information at short notice, and tend to default when tired to what we are familiar with. The sweet spot for hard jobs like these is definitely not 40 years of experience and 69 years of age.

Bottom line--I'm not losing sleep with how Bowness is handling Perfetti, but NHL coaching is not neurosurgery, so I think it is fair game for smart people to weigh in on these decisions, while having a bit of fun. Some of those HFJ smartasses might even be retired pilots or surgeons, with nothing better to do with all their spare time.