Proposal: COL/MTL: S. Girard for B. Gallagher?

[Habs Halifax]

First of all. Defence in hockey is about a WHOLE lot more than playing down low in your own zone. I agree that Girard is small and does struggle there against larger opponents but he still plays well positionally and relies on his teammates to play their position as well (which there is nothing wrong with). Girard is great at forcing the other team to make sloppy plays in the neutral zone, pushing guys to skate wide (where they will never be able to cut back to the middle on Girard), forcing dump ins (which becomes a toss up on who gets the puck, and if its him it gets back out), and being positionally sound defensively against the other teams rush. That is why people are saying he is the best defensively, not because he dominates other teams players on the boards in our own zone. Secondly. You narcing on people to the mod's and threatening to report them is a lame move. You have argued with absolutely everyone and spouted off a lot of complete nonsense that you continue to defend just to be annoying. So if anyone on this thread needs to take a breather it would be you.

Playing down low and ability to neutralize in your own end is very important. So is puck moving when you have the puck. But you got to have the puck to move it. Did this quick so let me know if you see any errors

Girard:
- 225 NHL games
- 114 giveaways (0.51/game)
- 76 takeaways (0.34/game
- 251 blocks (1.12/game)
- 157 hits (0.70/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 45%

Zadorov:
- 356 NHL games
- 182 giveaways (0.51/game)
- 87 takeaways (0.24/game)
- 400 blocks (1.12/game)
- 1046 hits (2.94/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 55%

Makar:
- 57 NHL games
- 40 giveaways (0.70/game)
- 34 takeaways (0.60/game)
- 47 blocks (0.82/game)
- 45 hits (0.79/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 38%

Johnson:
- 776 NHL games
- 452 giveaways (0.58/game)
- 380 takeaways (0.49/game)
- 1351 blocks (1.74/game)
- 1200 hits (1.55/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 59%

Graves:
- 95 NHL games
- 52 giveaways (0.55/game)
- 24 takeaways (0.25/game)
- 201 blocks (2.12/game)
- 144 hits (1.52/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 58%

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

If Girard was that good in his own end, he would have a better +/- and be closer to Makar, Zadorov, Johnson. Great at moving the puck when he has the puck. He's not the Avs best defensive D man.

There's a reason why plus/minus is not used by anyone in 2020. It doesn't reflect effectiveness in either zone; it mostly reflects icetime and usage. It arbitrarily favors some types of players over others and like most goal-based metrics, it's very noisy, and doesn't predict future performance well. Basically, it's a stat that doesn't allow you to draw any conclusion, which is the worst kind of stat.

 

[Habs Halifax]

There's a reason why plus/minus is not used by anyone in 2020. It doesn't reflect effectiveness in either zone; it mostly reflects icetime and usage. It arbitrarily favors some types of players over others and like most goal-based metrics, it's very noisy, and doesn't predict future performance well. Basically, it's a stat that doesn't allow you to draw any conclusion, which is the worst kind of stat.

+/- is used and it's still tracked but you have to take it with a grain of salt. You can't ignore that Graves was +40 and Girard was +1. I said the same kid of think towards Krug with the Bruins. Just cause you have an offensive type that has good hockey IQ and they move the puck very well and have offense, it don't mean they are complete at both ends.

A guy like Petry is a - player but starts in the D zone 58% of the time and still has a good Corsi. There is a lot to factor in in terms of puck moving, offensive ability, zone starts, PK/PP time, and how the +/- looks when you compare the context with all players on the team.

 

[Meeqs]

+/- is used and it's still tracked. You can't ignore that Graves was +40 and Girard was +1. I said the same kid of think towards Krug with the Bruins. Just cause you have an offensive type that has good hockey IQ and they move the puck very well and have offense, it don't mean they are complete at both ends.

Its a deeply flawed and essentially useless stat. Everyone will be better by ignoring it in any serious conversation.

It's only use is flagging people who have outdated and flawed view of the sport at this time. Its essentially hockeys scarlet letter

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Girard has the higher hockey IQ and can move the puck better when it's on his stick. Without the puck? Zadorov is better in his own end

Just say you haven't watched any Avs hockey and let's move on. It is honestly embarrassing to watch someone try and argue against MULTIPLE Avs fans who actually watch our team play, and try and tell us we're all wrong about our own players.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Playing down low and ability to neutralize in your own end is very important. So is puck moving when you have the puck. But you got to have the puck to move it. Did this quick so let me know if you see any errors

Girard:
- 225 NHL games
- 114 giveaways (0.51/game)
- 76 takeaways (0.34/game
- 251 blocks (1.12/game)
- 157 hits (0.70/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 45%

Zadorov:
- 356 NHL games
- 182 giveaways (0.51/game)
- 87 takeaways (0.24/game)
- 400 blocks (1.12/game)
- 1046 hits (2.94/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 55%

Makar:
- 57 NHL games
- 40 giveaways (0.70/game)
- 34 takeaways (0.60/game)
- 47 blocks (0.82/game)
- 45 hits (0.79/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 38%

Johnson:
- 776 NHL games
- 452 giveaways (0.58/game)
- 380 takeaways (0.49/game)
- 1351 blocks (1.74/game)
- 1200 hits (1.55/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 59%

Graves:
- 95 NHL games
- 52 giveaways (0.55/game)
- 24 takeaways (0.25/game)
- 201 blocks (2.12/game)
- 144 hits (1.52/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 58%

How does zone start percentage show how good somebody is defensively? Obviously Zadorov is going to have a high D zone start percentage because who in their right mind would put him out for an offensive zone draw with the likes over Makar/Girard/EJ on the team.

Zadorov started 55% of his shifts in the D zone according to you while Girard was only at 45% yet Zadorov has only started 129 times in the D Zone this year while Girard has started 161.

Girard’s percentage might be lower because he’s also used in other areas but he’s still been trusted to start in the defensive zone more than any other player on the team besides Cole.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

This is honestly incredible to watch.


Literally every Avs fan is saying otherwise and this dude is literally just ignoring the posts.


At some point HF really needs some sort of infraction for such ignorance.

 

[Galaxydoggystyle]

This is honestly incredible to watch.


Literally every Avs fan is saying otherwise and this dude is literally just ignoring the posts.


At some point HF really needs some sort of infraction for such ignorance.

Give me a f***ing break about infractions how about infractions on you Aves fans taking jabs at the Habs for no damn reason for months now in almost every hab related thread? This also includes threads that weren't even about the Aves just the Habs like i said earlier shut this stupid thread down Aves/Habs fans are in a stupid pissing contest and it has been going on months now.

If anyone hasn't noticed these threads between our two teams ALWAYS go off topic and never get back on track and then the thread is locked....

 

[Cousin Eddie]

This is honestly incredible to watch.


Literally every Avs fan is saying otherwise and this dude is literally just ignoring the posts.


At some point HF really needs some sort of infraction for such ignorance.

Yep. It’s not Avs fans saying he’s better than players on other teams either. We’re literally just explaining he’s the best defensive defenseman on the Avalanche. There’s no bias, we like all our players. Girard is just better than the others.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Give me a f***ing break about infractions how about infractions on you Aves fans taking jabs at the Habs for no damn reason for months now in almost every hab related thread? This also includes threads that weren't even about the Aves just the Habs like i said earlier shut this stupid thread down Aves/Habs fans are in a stupid pissing contest and it has been going on months now.

If anyone hasn't noticed these threads between our two teams ALWAYS go off topic and never get back on track and then the thread is locked....

It might have something to do with the fact that names like Sam Girard keep getting brought up. When these threads suggest core players of that value being removed from a Stanley Cup contender, backlash should be expected.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

+/- is used and it's still tracked but you have to take it with a grain of salt. You can't ignore that Graves was +40 and Girard was +1. I said the same kid of think towards Krug with the Bruins. Just cause you have an offensive type that has good hockey IQ and they move the puck very well and have offense, it don't mean they are complete at both ends.

A guy like Petry is a - player but starts in the D zone 58% of the time and still has a good Corsi. There is a lot to factor in in terms of puck moving, offensive ability, zone starts, PK/PP time, and how the +/- looks when you compare the context with all players on the team.

You absolutely can ignore +/-, and frankly, you should. Just like we ignored it when Jeff Schultz was +50 in 09/10 (he averaged +3 the rest of his career) or like we ignored it when Tom Preissing was +40 in 06/07, despite barely being an NHL-level player, or like we ignored Marek Malik great +/- from 03 to 07, during which he was still a mediocre, bottom-pairing Dman. Those that don't ignore +/- tend to regret it (like the Kings when they gave Preissing that big contract).

Zone starts are not quite as useless as +/-, but they're pretty overrated. They hint at usage, but they don't actually affect performance much.

One thing I'll add about Girard: he consistently draws more than 2x as many penalties as he commits, which is very rare for a Dman. I'll take that over simply being good on the PK.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Yep. It’s not Avs fans saying he’s better than players on other teams either. We’re literally just explaining he’s the best defensive defenseman on the Avalanche. There’s no bias, we like all our players. Girard is just better than the others.

Exactly.

We are talking about our own players here. The guys we watch for 82 games a season. And now we have one guy using terribly outdated stats who maybe watched 2 Avs games all year(Against Montreal) tell all of us that we are wrong and he is right about our players.

Like what in the world

 

[Meeqs]

Yep. It’s not Avs fans saying he’s better than players on other teams either. We’re literally just explaining he’s the best defensive defenseman on the Avalanche. There’s no bias, we like all our players. Girard is just better than the others.

I'm not surprised this isn't apparent to fans who don't watch a decent amount of Avs games during the season though. He is a truly exceptional and unique player without many comparisons and in general 'defense' is a broad and vague subject that even the brightest of minds struggle to quantify let alone standard fans. We have also seen some fast paced evolution of understanding of the topic, so some of these concepts may take longer for more seasoned fans who have been conditioned into an older way of thinking about things that the game has shifted away from.

We usually see a 3 year lag on the general consensus of dmen. I mean even EK was criminally underrated for 3 years of being flat out elite. Its somewhat expected.

 

[Meeqs]

You absolutely can ignore +/-, and frankly, you should. Just like we ignored it when Jeff Schultz was +50 in 09/10 (he averaged +3 the rest of his career) or like we ignored it when Tom Preissing was +40 in 06/07, despite barely being an NHL-level player, or like we ignored Marek Malik great +/- from 03 to 07, during which he was still a mediocre, bottom-pairing Dman. Those that don't ignore +/- tend to regret it (like the Kings when they gave Preissing that big contract).

Zone starts are not quite as useless as +/-, but they're pretty overrated. They hint at usage, but they don't actually affect performance much.

One thing I'll add about Girard: he consistently draws more than 2x as many penalties as he commits, which is very rare for a Dman. I'll take that over simply being good on the PK.

Piggy back on this that more Dmen should be considered for the lady byng trophy and we have seen Slavin get some love for it.

Also its kind of funny as like 80% of Girards career penalties have come from wanting to punch Alex Debrincat in the face haha

 

[Galaxydoggystyle]

It might have something to do with the fact that names like Sam Girard keep getting brought up. When these threads suggest core players of that value being removed from a Stanley Cup contender, backlash should be expected.

Actually some of the threads were about tatar/petry for your spare parts and thats when the pissing contest started and it just snow balled from there. I believe the biggest thread was where Aves fans were trying to shove Zadorov down Habs fans throats and asking for the far too much value when we habs fans specifically over and over again said we did not need Zadorov because we had a similar player in Chariot. Now I am not saying the Habs are clean either but this shit has been going on months now and it needs to stop and I just found it funny an Aves fan was calling for infractions when I have seen more jabs thrown from his own fan base towards my own.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Yep. It’s not Avs fans saying he’s better than players on other teams either. We’re literally just explaining he’s the best defensive defenseman on the Avalanche. There’s no bias, we like all our players. Girard is just better than the others.

Not all the others , but yeah he’s clearly viewed differently by some posters in this thread.

 

[Mackinn on your girl]

Playing down low and ability to neutralize in your own end is very important. So is puck moving when you have the puck. But you got to have the puck to move it. Did this quick so let me know if you see any errors

Girard:
- 225 NHL games
- 114 giveaways (0.51/game)
- 76 takeaways (0.34/game
- 251 blocks (1.12/game)
- 157 hits (0.70/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 45%

Zadorov:
- 356 NHL games
- 182 giveaways (0.51/game)
- 87 takeaways (0.24/game)
- 400 blocks (1.12/game)
- 1046 hits (2.94/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 55%

Makar:
- 57 NHL games
- 40 giveaways (0.70/game)
- 34 takeaways (0.60/game)
- 47 blocks (0.82/game)
- 45 hits (0.79/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 38%

Johnson:
- 776 NHL games
- 452 giveaways (0.58/game)
- 380 takeaways (0.49/game)
- 1351 blocks (1.74/game)
- 1200 hits (1.55/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 59%

Graves:
- 95 NHL games
- 52 giveaways (0.55/game)
- 24 takeaways (0.25/game)
- 201 blocks (2.12/game)
- 144 hits (1.52/game)
- Starts in defensive zone 58%

I never disagreed with you that down low play is important. As a matter of fact I agreed with you that Girard does struggle there a bit due to his size but luckily he's not the only person on the ice at the time. The Avalanche have bought into the system and play extremely well as a team to cover each other's deficiencies. Cherry picking stats on young players compared to older players is easy. They obviously are developing and their roles are constantly changing. Girard really came into his own defensively last year and it was evident when you watched the games. You really need to stop now. No one agrees with your assessment of Girard. All of us watched him every game (or most) all year, and have a pretty solid idea of what he brings to this team. If Sakic were to ever put him on the trade block (which he won't) there would be 30 GM's running to their phones.

 

[Spilot23]

Actually some of the threads were about tatar/petry for your spare parts and thats when the pissing contest started and it just snow balled from there. I believe the biggest thread was where Aves fans were trying to shove Zadorov down Habs fans throats and asking for the far too much value when we habs fans specifically over and over again said we did not need Zadorov because we had a similar player in Chariot. Now I am not saying the Habs are clean either but this shit has been going on months now and it needs to stop and I just found it funny an Aves fan was calling for infractions when I have seen more jabs thrown from his own fan base towards my own.

The problem with threads where a fanbase wants one of our players is that they aren't available. We like our team what we have right now and have a chance at going far these playoffs. I don't want to act cocky saying that because I'm pretty sure that's what most of Flames fans thought when they played us but we like our team probably the best team we've had in the last decade. Trying to trade for one of our players well it's usually one of our core player that people wants. We tell you no then some Avs fans try to offer you what we've available so the Zadorov, Jost or Graves proposals. Again any sane Avs fan know that Zadorov and Jost's value are probably 2nd/3rd rounders nothing much we don't expect getting a core player for both of them. Graves is a different story thought he could be traded probably the player that could get us some value but I'm still reluctant doing it without seeing how Byram does in the NHL.

 

[PAZ]

This is honestly incredible to watch.


Literally every Avs fan is saying otherwise and this dude is literally just ignoring the posts.


At some point HF really needs some sort of infraction for such ignorance.

Just add these posters to your ignore list. I realized after having a days worth of debates and there being zero effort to comprehend other people's post there's no point even seeing their posts.

 

[Meeqs]

Just add these posters to your ignore list. I realized after having a days worth of debates and there being zero effort to comprehend other people's post there's no point even seeing their posts.

This is the 1st time I am realizing this is a thing lmao

 

[Flyer lurker]

What few fan bases do is look at the other teams needs. Avs are stacked at f and d and have cap space. If someone is trading 2 for 1 or 3 for 1, i will be the avs giving up the depth for higher end pieces because they are that good. The original Gallagher for Girard offer showed logic. I get why Avs fans would say no and I can see where a 22 year d-man is more valuable than 27 year old winger. Fun discussion looking in.

Now this is the funny thing about hfboards. When one fan base says no to an offer the other tries to retaliate and says well the player we are asking for isn't as good as you think and here is why.... And its begs the question.

So why are your fans so interested in him?

 

[Meeqs]

What few fan bases do is look at the other teams needs. Avs are stacked at f and d and have cap space. If someone is trading 2 for 1 or 3 for 1, i will be the avs giving up the depth for higher end pieces because they are that good. The original Gallagher for Girard offer showed logic. I get why Avs fans would say no and I can see where a 22 year d-man is more valuable than 27 year old winger. Fun discussion looking in.

Now this is the funny thing about hfboards. When one fan base says no to an offer the other tries to retaliate and says well the player we are asking for isn't as good as you think and here is why.... And its begs the question.

So why are your fans so interested in him?

What bums me out is I do think there is actual discussions to be had here, namely:

If MTL wants Timmins, would there be a Domi related package

and

If MTL is certain on moving Tatar, would a lesser package around someone like Zadorov be possible. (I think this one was mostly a thing at the TDL and doesn't likely make sense now)

or

MTL seemingly has interest in Graves (and while I expect HFB as an entity to just pretend he is a bust), if that is the case what would be some pieces that they could possibly try to move for him if they were strongly interested.

 

[Hasbro]

Re: Girard.

One does not simply trade a player who just signed a multi year deal.

 

[Richard88]

Makar
Hughes

Niiiiice.

#CaleForCalder

 

[Richard88]

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