Coaching or Core: Where do you prefer the change?

Pokecheque

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Despite the win, I still feel like Roy is going about fixing the team's play the wrong way. He's utilizing neutral zone play much better than he was, which is good, but it's at the expense of their forecheck when it should be at the expense of their ridiculously passive shot blocking defensive scheme. It's a band-aid solution when he should be gutting the whole damned thing.

In any event, he should never again kvetch about "boring systems" like he did at Guy Boucher, because his current scheme is not much more aggressive than Boucher's systems were.
 

henchman21

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Despite the win, I still feel like Roy is going about fixing the team's play the wrong way. He's utilizing neutral zone play much better than he was, which is good, but it's at the expense of their forecheck when it should be at the expense of their ridiculously passive shot blocking defensive scheme. It's a band-aid solution when he should be gutting the whole damned thing.

In any event, he should never again kvetch about "boring systems" like he did at Guy Boucher, because his current scheme is not much more aggressive than Boucher's systems were.

He did the same thing last year... it really stems from the lack of puck movement on the back end. If more than 2 defensemen could be relied upon to make quick and good decisions... we'd see more aggression on the forecheck. It is the right decision at this point, but long-term the personnel needs tweaked.

I recall posting on this same thing about a week or two ago saying Roy would do this.
 

henchman21

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ironically, we trade away one of the best (though he wasn't that at the time).

I don't know who you are talking about... have to guess Stollery though. ;)

Targeting somebody like Ryan Murphy would be smart IMO.. then hope he can find his groove there.
 

shadow1

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But it's hard to say "this is still a young team" when not performing, when the actual young players are the ones that are performing. Like you said, 25 out of 60 goals from Mac, Duchene and Landy.

That's true. I don't think the Avs are a young team in the sense that it's an excuse for the club's futility.

I think the Avs are a young team in the sense that they don't need to blow things up, that they can still win with it's core group of guys, assuming those guys are surrounded by better players/coaching.
 

henchman21

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ahhhh... That makes sense! Even with him turning out as well as he did, I'd still make that trade every single time.

One of my concerns is that I see nobody getting drafted with that sort skill set (if they would have drafted Roy instead of trading back, they'd have the prefect player in the system for that role... I agree with that trade still though), so it will have to be a trade or they will never make the move.
 

Pokecheque

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He did the same thing last year... it really stems from the lack of puck movement on the back end. If more than 2 defensemen could be relied upon to make quick and good decisions... we'd see more aggression on the forecheck. It is the right decision at this point, but long-term the personnel needs tweaked.

I recall posting on this same thing about a week or two ago saying Roy would do this.

Not sure I agree. If Guenin and Stuart were back there, then yes, but the team is icing Johnson, Beauchemin, Barrie, Holden, Gormley, and Redmond. All those guys are more than capable of handling the puck. I realize they all vary in terms of puck protection, but still, I don't think it's the right decision at all. In fact it plays, IMHO, against their strengths as a team. If this were the Sacco-era dump-and-chase Avs then absolutely this more passive system would be ideal. It's not though and they should take advantage of the speed and skill they've acquired and do more to stifle the opposition in the attacking zone before they even get the chance to set something up. That's something I notice when they're playing their best hockey--they forecheck with confidence and disrupt things for the other team before they can even set anything up. Right now, even last night, too often they allow the opposition to not only set things up, but sometimes enter the d-zone with speed. You can't tell me Lindy Ruff would be using these guys the same way Roy is using them.

It's not just the system either, it's how they're teaching each d-man in terms of technique. You can still tell Holden's first instinct is to flop every time the opposition has the puck. If Ossi Vaananen can go charging into the corners and play a successful, aggressive game, then so can Holden.
 

InjuredChoker

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ahhhh... That makes sense! Even with him turning out as well as he did, I'd still make that trade every single time.

One of my concerns is that I see nobody getting drafted with that sort skill set (if they would have drafted Roy instead of trading back, they'd have the prefect player in the system for that role... I agree with that trade still though), so it will have to be a trade or they will never make the move.

not saying it was a bad trade. rare, win-win for both teams. both got the pieces they wanted even though the other parts in the deal didn't pan out for either team, unless rattie does so for the blues.

i'm still personally kind of pissed about roy... kid has the 'it' factor.
 

Foppa2118

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Focus and mental toughness I can give you. Consistency usually fades with age. Also earlier than people think.

I'm just allergic to the saying "Finding ways to win". Hate when coaches uses that when they have been totally outplayed but managed a lucky win thanks to a hot goalie.

You may dislike the cliche and that's fair, but that idea is literally what makes a player or a team a "winner." They find a way to push the edge in their favor when the game is on the line.

The goalie makes a big save at the key moment of a 5-5 game where they played like crap most of the night prior.

They give up two PP goals because the PK let them down, but then they're gifted a couple late PP's of their own and bury their chances on both to tie the game sending it to OT for a point they never deserved.

They've got a one goal lead but have been dominated most of the game and are getting hemmed in their own zone again. Then a guy like Duchene gets a semi breakaway with a good d man all over him, and he buries his chance to give his team a much needed cushion to pick up a huge two points they never should have had.

It's the little moments, and clutch plays at key times, and they add up over the course of a season. With so much parity in the league that little edge is even more important, and that's why Roy keeps bringing it up.
 

henchman21

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Not sure I agree. If Guenin and Stuart were back there, then yes, but the team is icing Johnson, Beauchemin, Barrie, Holden, Gormley, and Redmond. All those guys are more than capable of handling the puck. I realize they all vary in terms of puck protection, but still, I don't think it's the right decision at all. In fact it plays, IMHO, against their strengths as a team. If this were the Sacco-era dump-and-chase Avs then absolutely this more passive system would be ideal. It's not though and they should take advantage of the speed and skill they've acquired and do more to stifle the opposition in the attacking zone before they even get the chance to set something up. That's something I notice when they're playing their best hockey--they forecheck with confidence and disrupt things for the other team before they can even set anything up. Right now, even last night, too often they allow the opposition to not only set things up, but sometimes enter the d-zone with speed. You can't tell me Lindy Ruff would be using these guys the same way Roy is using them.

It's not just the system either, it's how they're teaching each d-man in terms of technique. You can still tell Holden's first instinct is to flop every time the opposition has the puck. If Ossi Vaananen can go charging into the corners and play a successful, aggressive game, then so can Holden.

Beauch, Holden, Redmond, and Gormley are not what I'd call good puck movers. They can all do it, but they all have faults when pressured to make a quick decision. A good puck mover can mostly make good decisions under pressure. Beauch is adequate and good enough for his role, but it isn't a strength. Holden isn't good at decision making period... let along making a quick one. Redmond has one tool... long stretch passes. Beyond that, his skill set and decision making are suspect. Gormley... he has some potential there. He is finally getting used to the speed of the game and is starting to relax a bit. He can be somebody that helps the issue.

The Avs absolutely need to play a faster game, but in order to do that, you need defensemen you can rely on consistently to make good decisions so the forwards can play a bit riskier and faster. The Avs only have 2 that I would trust relying on in Barrie and EJ... and Barrie can play hesitant at times. Roy wants to play that way... look how quickly forwards exit the zone once the Avs have the puck. The problem is a majority of the defensemen are incapable of playing that way, so they have to adapt to find a method that allows them to win games. Being more passive allows the defensemen a bit more help and time to make better decisions with the puck... it also kills the forwards ability to create offense. They are just trying to find a way to win games right now.

not saying it was a bad trade. rare, win-win for both teams. both got the pieces they wanted even though the other parts in the deal didn't pan out for either team, unless rattie does so for the blues.

i'm still personally kind of pissed about roy... kid has the 'it' factor.

I really like Roy and think he is a sure thing to be an excellent defensemen in the NHL. He doesn't really fit with what Sakic and Roy seem to be building, but the type of defensemen he is will be a need here at some point.

Roy is a bit fragile, I like the guy but I don't know that I'd prefer him over Meloche.

I don't think they would prefer Roy given their tendencies, but Roy is going to be a hell of a player.
 

henchman21

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I should probbaly ask this elsewhere but we are talking about basically the same thing in every thread anyway, who would you consider PP QBs in this draft, Hench?

Chychrun should be a good one (along with all of his other skills), but I'm not sure how realistic it is to hope for him. After him... I've heard great things about Fabbro in that area (only seen him twice, but he showed off the charts creativity and smarts with the puck then). Who I'd realistically target for that role though would be Luke Green (probably a 2nd rounder sort). The kid has an electric skill set and exudes that feeling of control when he has the puck. I see him as a real offensive force from the backend... legit 60 point potential if he can carve out enough minutes in the NHL (his defense needs a ton of work).
 

henchman21

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I don't think they will ever target that sort of player... at least not until it becomes a glaring need and they are forced to address it. Our best hope is probably for Meloche or Butcher to carve it out. I have doubts about the latter ever being a NHL player though.
 

StayAtHomeAv

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I'm liking Butcher more for the NHL. His skating has gotten better, and he brings exactly what you were talking about early- quick, smart decisions with the puck while under pressure. Has a very accurate pass as well, and shot. With his mind and above average skill, if he continues to work on his skating I think he will become a legit prospect that we should have some hope for. Maybe already is.
 

Pokecheque

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Beauch, Holden, Redmond, and Gormley are not what I'd call good puck movers. They can all do it, but they all have faults when pressured to make a quick decision. A good puck mover can mostly make good decisions under pressure. Beauch is adequate and good enough for his role, but it isn't a strength. Holden isn't good at decision making period... let along making a quick one. Redmond has one tool... long stretch passes. Beyond that, his skill set and decision making are suspect. Gormley... he has some potential there. He is finally getting used to the speed of the game and is starting to relax a bit. He can be somebody that helps the issue.

The Avs absolutely need to play a faster game, but in order to do that, you need defensemen you can rely on consistently to make good decisions so the forwards can play a bit riskier and faster. The Avs only have 2 that I would trust relying on in Barrie and EJ... and Barrie can play hesitant at times. Roy wants to play that way... look how quickly forwards exit the zone once the Avs have the puck. The problem is a majority of the defensemen are incapable of playing that way, so they have to adapt to find a method that allows them to win games. Being more passive allows the defensemen a bit more help and time to make better decisions with the puck... it also kills the forwards ability to create offense. They are just trying to find a way to win games right now.

These guys are all pros. Even Holden, who, I agree, thinks about as quick as he skates, can handle getting the puck out of the zone. Redmond obviously has giant holes in his game, but he's just as capable of skating it out as he is of making a long stretch pass. I don't think Roy is implementing the only system that can work for this personnel. He's implementing the only system he knows.

Obviously the personnel on the blueline are not ideal by any means. But this is way, way better than what it was under Sacco where it was EJ, Hejda, SOB, ROB, and Zanon. These guys are capable of handling the puck. They just need to be taught better and have a more organized system in place that allows for them to move it out of the zone. There is simply no cohesion when it comes to Roy's system. None. The reason the decision-making of these guys looks slow is possibly because they have no idea what to do with the puck once they get it on their stick. Better coaches like Ken Hitchcock, Lindy Ruff, or Alain Vigneault make it clear to their players on how to organize when the opposition is in the defensive zone and the best ways on getting it out once they've regained possession. I don't feel Roy and his staff have done that at all. They came into the season with a real loser of a system and just keep tweaking it in hopes the players figure it out on their own.
 

landy92mack29

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not saying it was a bad trade. rare, win-win for both teams. both got the pieces they wanted even though the other parts in the deal didn't pan out for either team, unless rattie does so for the blues.

i'm still personally kind of pissed about roy... kid has the 'it' factor.

I'd rather have Meloche especially if Barrie is on the team long term. I'm still pissed about taking Greer over Sprong, Harkins and Chlapik.
 

henchman21

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These guys are all pros. Even Holden, who, I agree, thinks about as quick as he skates, can handle getting the puck out of the zone. Redmond obviously has giant holes in his game, but he's just as capable of skating it out as he is of making a long stretch pass. I don't think Roy is implementing the only system that can work for this personnel. He's implementing the only system he knows.

Obviously the personnel on the blueline are not ideal by any means. But this is way, way better than what it was under Sacco where it was EJ, Hejda, SOB, ROB, and Zanon. These guys are capable of handling the puck. They just need to be taught better and have a more organized system in place that allows for them to move it out of the zone. There is simply no cohesion when it comes to Roy's system. None. The reason the decision-making of these guys looks slow is possibly because they have no idea what to do with the puck once they get it on their stick. Better coaches like Ken Hitchcock, Lindy Ruff, or Alain Vigneault make it clear to their players on how to organize when the opposition is in the defensive zone and the best ways on getting it out once they've regained possession. I don't feel Roy and his staff have done that at all. They came into the season with a real loser of a system and just keep tweaking it in hopes the players figure it out on their own.

They might be pros, but they are limited hockey players. You can't win forcing the Holden's of the world to make good and quick decisions.

I can say with 100% certainty, this is not the system Roy ran in juniors. He has a much different system that I think he really wants to run at this level, but simply doesn't have the personnel. We see them inch towards it, and then shy away when the results are not going their way. When they start winning, they inch towards it again. When this team is playing with confidence and is super aggressive they can pull the system off... not perfectly, but produce winning hockey at a rate that would get them in the playoffs. When that confidence slips, it falls apart and things get tweaked to try to win... even if ugly.

I said in that post a bit ago that my issue with Roy is he isn't forcing his system enough as a base system. The Avs pretty much come in with a different gameplan every game and sometimes period by period. It isn't cohesive enough, and the Avs are not forcing their will at this point. I think this will change as the personnel changes. Getting better puck movers and bigger forwards who can play at multiple paces will improve this team greatly. The players that fit are getting built up in the system, it is just taking time. I want to see how things unfold when the roster is build around the vision before crucifying Roy.

I'd rather have Meloche especially if Barrie is on the team long term. I'm still pissed about taking Greer over Sprong, Harkins and Chlapik.

Sprong I totally get... Harkins and Chlapik, I would have picked them over Greer. I get the Greer pick from the angle of the team they want to build and if he pans out, he will fit their profile to a T.
 

tigervixxxen

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Systems is not my strong suit, can you explain a bit of what you mean Hench? Like what do the Avs want to run and then how they are forced to be more passive? And if you know how the Rampage system differs? It seems they have a more rigid forecheck offensive system
 

dahrougem2

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These guys are all pros. Even Holden, who, I agree, thinks about as quick as he skates, can handle getting the puck out of the zone. Redmond obviously has giant holes in his game, but he's just as capable of skating it out as he is of making a long stretch pass. I don't think Roy is implementing the only system that can work for this personnel. He's implementing the only system he knows.

I absolutely think he's implementing a system that fits his personnel as best he can, because he just doesn't have the requisite personnel yet to run his true desired system. Beauchemin can make quick decisions but isn't the best puck mover. Holden, we know what he is and isn't capable of. Redmond, same thing. Odd stretch pass here and there but otherwise hangs onto the puck for what seems like ages (He's been better in his games this season). Gormley is finally starting to relax out there, he can move the puck but still needs more time to get into his comfort zone. Barrie is hit or miss, he'll either be making great outlet passes or he'll be trying to do too much and hold onto the puck.

Really, as Hench said, when Roy has his preferred personnel, I think we'll be able to fairly critique Roy as a coach. Just as every coach should be given leeway until they have a suitable roster. When this team's defence is consisting of EJ, Barrie, Zadorov, Bigras, and two other defensemen (Beauch/Gormley/Meloche/draft pick), I think we'll see Roy's system implemented better and less trouble breaking out.
 

AslanRH

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My question,

if they aren't fits for his system, why did Holden, Stuart, and Beauch get deals with term on Roy's watch? Seems odd to handcuff yourself from finding better fits to the system if you are locking up 2-3 roster spots on guys with term who don't fit.
 

henchman21

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I absolutely think he's implementing a system that fits his personnel as best he can, because he just doesn't have the requisite personnel yet to run his true desired system. Beauchemin can make quick decisions but isn't the best puck mover. Holden, we know what he is and isn't capable of. Redmond, same thing. Odd stretch pass here and there but otherwise hangs onto the puck for what seems like ages (He's been better in his games this season). Gormley is finally starting to relax out there, he can move the puck but still needs more time to get into his comfort zone. Barrie is hit or miss, he'll either be making great outlet passes or he'll be trying to do too much and hold onto the puck.

Really, as Hench said, when Roy has his preferred personnel, I think we'll be able to fairly critique Roy as a coach. Just as every coach should be given leeway until they have a suitable roster. When this team's defence is consisting of EJ, Barrie, Zadorov, Bigras, and two other defensemen (Beauch/Gormley/Meloche/draft pick), I think we'll see Roy's system implemented better and less trouble breaking out.

Yep. I think there are as many issues up front as well, but they are noticed less because of the defense issues.

My question,

if they aren't fits for his system, why did Holden, Stuart, and Beauch get deals with term on Roy's watch? Seems odd to handcuff yourself from finding better fits to the system if you are locking up 2-3 roster spots on guys with term who don't fit.

To give the kids time to develop. This is a long-term plan and vision, not a 1-2-3 year fix. Having Beauch allows Bigras and Zadorov to not be rushed. Stuart was thought to be a fit, but his issues being a fit (along with him not really being their top choice) caught them off guard. If Stuart works well here, Beauch isn't signed. Holden was locking a player up coming off a good season before a big payday comes. He was bad last season, but this year he is fine. If he plays this way, he will be a great 3rd pairing defensemen for this teams as the kids get ready.

TV... I'll try to find time to write something up.
 

henchman21

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Alright TV... I can't speak to much of the Rampage this year, I've only seen a small amount of games and can't really judge them from that. Typing these things is not my strong suit, so hopefully it is clearer than swamp mud.

At a high level, what Roy wants is a team that plays with the puck at a high pace in the defensive and neutral zone... then when they get into the offensive zone they need to be able to work from behind the goal line and half boards if the quick plays are not there. Defensively, he wants to collapse towards the middle, but still be very aggressive defensively below the faceoff dots (try to keep the pucks out of the dangerous areas basically). He wants a team that reads the play well and can quickly pounce on mistakes and quickly counterattack... but when that doesn't work he wants players that can cycle and create offense through movement below the goalline.

The breakout is the biggest change that Roy keeps making. When Roy is trying to run his system... the very second the defensemen gets the puck, the forward (they are segmented by forwards and where they fell defensively, not position... Roy's system is more of a F1/2/3 vs LW/C/RW) on that same wall will shoot up the ice looking for the 2nd pass in this equation. The forward playing the center will open themselves up for a pass up the middle... usually curling towards the puck or going straight up the middle. The forward on the opposite will hang back, but inch toward the middle of the ice to be a secondary outlet. Now ideally, the defensemen can push the puck up quickly or hit the center in stride up the middle. Which then the system is designed for the player to continue with the puck or hit the winger streaking... whatever allows the team to enter the zone with puck possession. If that center isn't available, nor is the defensemen able to skate the puck out... the opposite boards forward is the next outlet. It is designed as a longer pass that if can be executed properly will allow that winger to immediately get the puck and hit the streaking winger or skate the puck through the middle to dump in the puck. The last option is to go straight up the boards to the streaking forward... a pass that is rarely open and hard to hit... results in an icing more often than not. If nothing looks good they hit the other defensemen and reset... Holden, Guenin, and Redmond do this far, far too often to be real successful in this system.

What this requires of the defensemen is to make 4 really quick reads over a wide view of the ice. They have to evaluate their pressure and if they can shake it, if the forward playing low is open in the middle, then across the ice if that winger is open, and then finally going back across the ice for the streaking winger. Depending on where the defensemen has the puck, they might have to scope a ~65 degree view in a split second. That is asking a lot from a defensemen and is quite an unusual read progression. Usually they are in layers that progress from one side to another to make it easier to read. Roy wants his defensemen to scan middle to opposite to same side ideally.

The big changes Roy makes are to the read progression, the forward playing low, and the same side winger. Instead of streaking, the same side winger typically holds the wall, the forward playing center curls then streaks up the middle, the opposite winger remains the same. Then the defensemen reads same side to middle to opposite side in that order. The first option is to hit the same side winger who will chip it to the center, hopefully with speed. Secondary option is to hit the center hopefully with speed. This simplifies the progression and gets the puck into better hands quicker. It also kills their speed through the neutral zone because instead of two forwards with speed streaking up the ice (with the potential of a pass to catch the other team flat footed), you have just one. There is no reason for the defense of the other team to back off and give the blue line. This leads to a lot more dumps. It allows the Avs to actually get the puck out of the zone, with easier reads and options... but it kills the counterattack.

On the forecheck, the Avs really want to run a very aggressive 1-3-1 (not a trapping 1-3-1 like Boucher's system). With the pure lack of footspeed on the backend, they are being forced to run a 1-2-2 with the speedy (relative term) forward on the line being the attacker. With the 1-3-1 that Roy wants to run best forchecker attacks up front while the 2 forwards up front and the defensemen eliminate any options for the other team. I'd rather Roy switch up to a simple 2-1-2 system there as it offers a better balance... but there might be more limitations than I'm seeing.

Roy's philosophy on offense is first to counterattack and try to have players that can win one on one battles... then secondarily, win the corners and attack from the half boards feeding the slot. The counter attack works for the Avs when the breakout is working well. That is what happened a couple years ago and the offense can come in spades off that is because the Avs have/had a bunch of dynamic forwards who can make some awe inspiring plays. The secondary part is where the Avs have some issues. MacK for all his talents isn't great down low yet (he is getting there). Landy and Duchene are good down low and creating offense from the corners and half boards. The rest of the team isn't very good there yet, but look at who they have brought in... Iggy's reputation was a player that could do that, and he can in spurts... but mostly is a shooter out of that cycle. Soderberg is a player who works the best off the half boards. Grigs is a player who has great potential in that area with his size, IQ, and hands combo... it just has to come together (seemingly it is). This is Rantanen's calling card. They don't have a great mix of players at the moment that can play at multiple paces and can win board battles with consistency. It isn't a secret as to why Roy's first year had the best offensive output... he had two players that could mesh well with speed, but also worked great down low and on the half boards (Stastny and ROR). The replacements are not as good in those areas (Soderberg and Iggy), but the Avs are working on it. If Grigs can pan out into a decent 2nd line player and Rantanen continues his progression... then the Avs can potentially have one player as good or better in that area of the offense and be more well rounded in the rest of the top 9 with regards to creating offense. To Roy's fault, he isn't tweaking the offensive system enough to compensate for the forwards not being as capable. He is just putting the best 3 together and telling the others they need to work harder and win more battles. Iggy isn't going to do that... partially because he isn't capable anymore, and probably partially because the fire isn't there as much. Soderberg can play the secondary offense part well, but paired with Comeau/Iggy/Grigs... there isn't a counter attack threat. Comeau is just Comeau... a bottom 6 player that shouldn't be in the top 6. The third line is more of a mess of a mix.

Long-term... I think we need Landy-MacK and Rantanen-Duchene pairings in the top 6 with a slower more cerebral player that can slow things down with MacK and Landy (maybe Grigs can fill that role). Then a faster higher energy player (preferably with size to just be a forechecking machine... but high energy is probably most important) with Dutchy and Rantanen. I think the system is moving in the right direction here with regards to the mix... Beaudin can play with speed has some size and is a multi pace player. Greer is the high energy player with huge forechecking potential. Rantanen fits to a T. Bleacks when on his game can fit. Compher even lacking size will be a forechecking machine in the NHL that can compliment in the middle 6. On defense Bigras is a prototype fit... 2 way player that isn't undersize and makes really good quick reads. Zadorov is supremely talented... just needs refined with regards to making correct decisions. Meloche is a great fit with the nasty streak. Wood... if his skating can come around (still a substansial question), he will be a good fit as well. If Siemens can clean up his decision making, he will fit as a complimentary player with his skating abilty.

When the system starts producing for the big club, I think we will really see Roy's vision. The question there is how patient are Sakic and Roy going to be?
 

tigervixxxen

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Thanks Hench for taking the time to write that up, it helps me to understand these things. I never played the game so the systems stuff is the most foreign to me.

If they can draft that power forward we can go a long way to having one of those slots filled.
 

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