Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

[Loosie]

So I'm in the RAWs of the Summer of '97 right and not only were they great RAWs but they are bringing back some great memories.

My Grandfather is the one who got me started into wrestling around 1993. He had asked me to start taping Maple Leaf Wrestling for him around that time as we lived in an area with cable but he didn't.

Fast forward 5 years and we had moved just down the road from my grandparents (well as 'down the road' as you can get for the boonies.) Around this time RAW was being broadcast on TSN in Canada but we didn't have cable anymore. My grandfather now had a US Satellite dish so he had both USA network and TNT. During this summer I would bike down to my grandfathers and we would watch wrestling together, he would usually flip between RAW and Nitro, but we would mostly stay on RAW. (I was never much of a WCW guy, but the older wrestlers were there so it was who my grandfather was more used to) Afterwards he would usually drive me home because of how late it was (and dark it got)

This was also my last summer living at home as I graduated from high school was off to university in September. It's been great not only reliving what was a fantastic time of stories in the WWF, but just some great memories too. My grandfather turned 91 this year, although I'm not sure if he still watches RAW anymore.

 

[bruins309]

I like to look at outliers from the past. Either stuff that stands out as bring so great or so terrible and then see for myself if it was that bad. Not so much WCW 1999 because that's awful from top to bottom. I mean something like a single match from a show.

That brought me to Clash of the Champions 11, from June 1990. It's a decent enough show that doesn't waste much time, though I would have preferred Jim Cornette on color instead of Bob Caudle. But that card is mainly known for one thing: the odd main event.

Ole Anderson's first act as booker was to bring in 37 year old Junkyard Dog to challenge Ric Flair at the Clash. Dog was a bit out of shape at the time to say the least, and everything i ever read about this match talked about how Dog sold nothing. And by nothing, I mean NOTHING. Eye pokes, punches, knee drop, a chair to the head. Flair didn't even do a single chop in the match, which is very unusual. Instead he had to just kind of bump off the Dog for 5-6 minutes until the Horsemen run in.

Verdict: It's exactly what everyone says it is. Man, is this bad. And this was Ole's FIRST idea. The Black Scorpion comes later, the first fake Sting at Havoc....but this was a sign that maybe they should have found a different booker for 1990 WCW.

p.s. They tried to find someone else. They considered bringing Dusty back because of course they did. But other candidates (from newsletters of the time) really get the imagination going: imagine a 1990 WCW booked by Ted DiBiase (no booking experience), or the Portland duo of Roddy Piper and Len Denton. The Piper one really stands out because then you get Piper vs Flair even if that does nothing for Sting and his push.

 

[joshyhockey26]

Slowly watching through the older WCW ppvs, currently on Bash at the Beach '95. Slim Jim sponsorship to the max

 

[Engebretson]

So I'm in the RAWs of the Summer of '97 right and not only were they great RAWs but they are bringing back some great memories.

After recently re-upping for a free month of the Network, you've inspired me to look back at some of the old 1997 Raw's that I watched live at the time but haven't really seen since. I started around the night after Royal Rumble and I'm right about the first week of April right now. A few thoughts

-I have a greater appreciation for Bret's heel turn now, especially considering it what it did for Austin and the company at the time. Everyone talks about the double turn and their match at WrestleMania that year, but Bret's work as he turned full heel was pretty impressive. There were clearly some bigger pops for Austin after their double turn, but I give a lot of credit to Bret Hart for being a great heel to help steer Austin into a babyface position with the crowd. Before their match at WM 13, Austin was basically the same character, but now you give him a heel to go after whom the fans are just rabid about seeing get his ass kicked. You get Bret just tearing into the crowds on Raw, then Austin comes out after him and gives the crowds exactly what they wanted. Great work by both men on their character development.

-I didn't catch it much at the time, but Rocky really was a terrible face before he joined the Nation. His crowd reaction in this era is really just apathetic and his mic work is nowhere it would eventually be. Honestly, it reminds me a lot of Reigns and his crowd reactions around late 2014. It makes me wonder what Reigns might have become had they taken the same course with him as they did Rocky Maivia and given his character another layer of depth.

-Holy crap does Vince act like he is in love with HBK during this time. Every single time Vince is interviewing Michaels in the ring he's giving him these googly-eyes and smiling/laughing at everything HBK does. It's not quite on the levels of Bobby Heenan ogling Lex Luger circa 1993, but I think it's more sad because Heenan was clearly going over the top and Vince kind of makes you wonder. Also, Shawn is really overrated on the mic around this time while he was trying to be a face. About the only time he was decent was when he was trying to pull back the curtain about his and Bret's hatred for each other which happened just about every time he had a mic in his face.

-Speaking of HBK, I got to see the whole 3-4 weeks where Shawn "lost his smile" and then found it, and you'd have to be the biggest HBK mark in the world to believe this was all 100% legit. On the night he was supposed to fight Sid for the title, he vacates the title and honestly talks more about how he can't take it anymore emotionally than physically, then proceeds to come back the week before WrestleMania and hop around like nothing was ever wrong while still saying he was a couple months away from a ring return. The more I watch this stuff, the more I truly believe that he pulled all this to get out of his match with Bret at WrestleMania 13 because honestly, it was all pointing to that in storyline. Shawn was supposedly going to retain at Thursday Raw Thursday against Sid and then Bret would win the Final Four match that weekend to set up their main event match at Mania. Pretty obvious where it was heading and it was very convenient timing for Shawn to all of a sudden be so damaged physically and emotionally, then come back absolutely fixed a few weeks later.

 

[Loosie]

-Holy crap does Vince act like he is in love with HBK during this time. Every single time Vince is interviewing Michaels in the ring he's giving him these googly-eyes and smiling/laughing at everything HBK does. It's not quite on the levels of Bobby Heenan ogling Lex Luger circa 1993, but I think it's more sad because Heenan was clearly going over the top and Vince kind of makes you wonder. Also, Shawn is really overrated on the mic around this time while he was trying to be a face. About the only time he was decent was when he was trying to pull back the curtain about his and Bret's hatred for each other which happened just about every time he had a mic in his face.

Vince's love of HBK has been going for years at that point. Vince was marking out for Shawn in 95 even when Shawn was still a heel. Going back and watching it, it's a little disturbing to see how excited Vince would get during all Shawn's 'strip shows'

 

[Engebretson]

Vince's love of HBK has been going for years at that point. Vince was marking out for Shawn in 95 even when Shawn was still a heel. Going back and watching it, it's a little disturbing to see how excited Vince would get during all Shawn's 'strip shows'

I just watched the April 7th, 1997 Raw where Shawn cuts huge promo where he throws kayfabe directly into the garbage can and blasts Bret for his backstage politics. Knowing what we know now about what was going on between them, I can follow along, but this was mostly pre-internet at the time and I can't imagine anyone at home or in the crowd was totally following along with Shawn while he was ripping back the curtain on their backstage relationship. Anyways, at the end he decides he's going to spite Bret by doing a little dance and Vince has a look on his face like he's 5 years old again and about to open a present on Christmas morning. Reminds me of that Vince/WBF.gif which is definitely disturbing.

 

[Kimi]

I always remember how Vince would gush over Luger when he debuted. He really was the perfect example of a Vince guy in every single way.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Slowly watching through the older WCW ppvs, currently on Bash at the Beach '95. Slim Jim sponsorship to the max

WCW 95 was a special kind of crazy. The beginnings of the dungeon of doom!!!

 

[Emperoreddy]

I always remember how Vince would gush over Luger when he debuted. He really was the perfect example of a Vince guy in every single way.

Well he is the total package.

 

[bruins309]

Reading all the recent posts again makes me nostaglic for RAW 1997. Maybe I'll just go thru July and watch all those again.

For now, I am watching a truly bizarre match from November 1988 from Philly. Brain Busters, new to WWF at the time against the Young Stallions. Dick Graham, Rod Trongard, and Lord Alfred Hayes are the commentary team. The first part of the match sees TULLY playing babyface in peril and the Stallions cheating. I know this is Philly, but Philly 1988 was still different from a few years later. Stallions cheat by switching places a time or two. Hayes tells us that "Jack Tunney the president of the WWF reviews the tapes to evaluate the officials." That one made me laugh.

Second half of the match gets more traditional: Tully hits an Okada-like dropkick and a bunch of dudes down front are marking out for it. Arn and Tully go back to their usual stooging which is awesome: the holding hands while doing an abdominal stretch, the tagging of feet instead of by hand, Arn comically trying to keep his balance off a sunset flip. Busters get the win when Tully nails Powers with a clothesline while running the apron.

Bonus: ring announcer is a vocal dead ringer for Jim Cornette.

 

[Loosie]

Holy Crap!!! A young Tajiri sighting in 1997 WWF, during their 'Light Heavyweight' stuff. He lost to Taka Michinoku on the July 14th RAW from San Antonio Texas. He was billed here as Tajiri Yoshihiro.

 

[boredmale]

For now, I am watching a truly bizarre match from November 1988 from Philly. Brain Busters, new to WWF at the time against the Young Stallions. Dick Graham, Rod Trongard, and Lord Alfred Hayes are the commentary team.

I know he is little know but I loved Ron Trongard as an announcer. He sounded like a professional sports announcer. I heard him a few times watching AWA on ESPN Classic channel. Seems like he signed in the WWF in the late 80s just because Vince could do it(to rub it in Verne's face). lol

 

[bruins309]

Finally back to writing proper reviews of shows after a break of a few weeks, and it's a look at WCW Slamboree 1998. I was at this show in Worcester, MA and um, this doesn't seem to hold up despite some real star power.

http://section309.com/2016/06/06/slamboree98/

- Fit Finlay and Chris Benoit and why they are like mashed potatoes and potato chips respectively.
- Chris Jericho introduces cruiserweights and cracks everyone up.
- My own anger at WCW's policy of invalidating PPV results the next night on free TV.
- The early signs of Eric Bischoff's mental breakdown as WCW was starting to lose the rating war; this is the show where he "challenged" Vince McMahon to a match.
- Goldberg and his organic popularity and why he was a better worker than I recalled
- Macho Man vs the Hitman: several years too late
- Sting's reaction to the finish of the main event: a meme for all things WCW?

 

[GKJ]

I watched the Doomsday Cage Match. Literally nobody knew what the hell to do, or what was really going on, and the lighting was incredible. That whole thing was so awful that it was amazing.

Also saw parts of NWO Souled Out. A pretty good ladder match between Eddie Guerrero and Syxx, even though Eddie dropped the belt. Other than that, it sucked that the show was so bad because it wasn't really that bad of a concept.

 

[bruins309]

Now up to 1988 for Saturday Night's Main Event for the Jan. 88 edition.

http://section309.com/2016/06/09/snme14/

- Andre the Giant chokes out Hulk Hogan and gives young Bruins309 nightmares throughout 1988.
- I explore the "this does not reflect the WWE's corporate views" and identify the exact moment/reason why that was added for this show. I'll give you a hint: someone makes a racist comment
- Mr. Fuji and his hat. Was it stapled to his head? Also, the guy who played the Mr. Fuji-esque character from Austin Powers is a truly terrible person.
- I ponder the possibility that Slick may have had something to do with the Reagan-Gorbachev talks going on in Washington in the days after this show was taped, and also compare Gorbachev to Hulk Hogan.
- Jimmy Hart and how he was so giving toward Brutus Beefcake to try and get that guy over.
- Boris Zhukov: everyone thinks you're terrible, dude.
- The obsession with implying that Rick Martel is too small. NEVER!

Also, I started a new thing to actually give me a purpose for reading wrestling books on the Kindle. I've been reading Bret Hart's book and over the course the next few days I will cover passages that I highlighted in the book with some commentary. Part 1 is up and Parts 2 and 3 will be up Friday and Saturday at 8 AM ET.

http://section309.com/category/bret-hart-book/

 

[Emperoreddy]

Watching old stuff makes me remember how awesome Fink was.

The way he calls "The NNNEEEEEWWWW xxx Champion". Amazing.

 

[joshyhockey26]

Watching the older round table talks "Legends of Wrestling" currently the Best of the 70s episode. Wish this this series would return, even if they only had a handful of episodes a year.

 

[Guardian17]

"We also say goodbye to the original opening theme of SNME: “Obsession” by Animotion, which would be replaced with the Jim Johnston-composed ditty you hear on the WWE Network for all these shows"

Yeah, when ever I hear "Obsession" I immediately think of SNME and start posing like Hulk Hogan!

 

[Engebretson]

- I explore the "this does not reflect the WWE's corporate views" and identify the exact moment/reason why that was added for this show. I'll give you a hint: someone makes a racist comment

I just watched an episode of 1997 Raw that started out with that disclaimer and I'm thinking it had to do with Lawler's promo on Goldust during the show which included a word that starts with "f" that would get WWE lit up with a media backlash today. We're currently in the "Goldust is not gay, see, here is his wife and daughter" part of Dustin Runnels' career.

 

[Loosie]

I just watched an episode of 1997 Raw that started out with that disclaimer and I'm thinking it had to do with Lawler's promo on Goldust during the show which included a word that starts with "f" that would get WWE lit up with a media backlash today. We're currently in the "Goldust is not gay, see, here is his wife and daughter" part of Dustin Runnels' career.

Yeah I passed that episode not too long ago. He outright asks Goldust, they kept in unedited on that RAW, but RAWs after it was 'bleeped' (I'm assuming it was like in the original airing)

This was right around Golddust's face turn, two very good 'Sit Down Interviews with JR' were happening at this time and resulted in face turns for both, one was with Golddsut (although his face turn was already underway before the interview), and the other was with Mankind, and that interview kind of brought about his face turn, you can tell it was unexpected as they split it into three segments and at the end of the last segment he attacks JR with the Mandible Claw.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Yeah I passed that episode not too long ago. He outright asks Goldust, they kept in unedited on that RAW, but RAWs after it was 'bleeped' (I'm assuming it was like in the original airing)

This was right around Golddust's face turn, two very good 'Sit Down Interviews with JR' were happening at this time and resulted in face turns for both, one was with Golddsut (although his face turn was already underway before the interview), and the other was with Mankind, and that interview kind of brought about his face turn, you can tell it was unexpected as they split it into three segments and at the end of the last segment he attacks JR with the Mandible Claw.

Were those sit downs before or after the ones with Austin?

I remember not liking any of his sit downs at the time but was clear they did change things afterward.

 

[Loosie]

Were those sit downs before or after the ones with Austin?

I remember not liking any of his sit downs at the time but was clear they did change things afterward.

Before I think. I don't recall a sit down with Austin occurring yet in my viewing, I think the Austin ones occurred after his broken neck (I'm just about to watch SummerSlam)

 

[Emperoreddy]

Before I think. I don't recall a sit down with Austin occurring yet in my viewing, I think the Austin ones occurred after his broken neck (I'm just about to watch SummerSlam)

Kid me always thought those sit downs turned JR into an ultra Austin mark

 

[bruins309]

Kid me always thought those sit downs turned JR into an ultra Austin mark

I remember one thing Austin did....it had to be on Shotgun because I watched it at school and I can't find it online. He's on his ranch and he's got pictures of people hanging in tree and he's shooting them. One of the pictures was of Jim Ross and the way he ran him down before shooting to picture was quite funny.

Rock gets all the plaudits for being funny, but Austin in '97 was pretty freaking hilarious too.

So I finished the Bret Hart book and wow, do I love the concept of highlighting passages in my Kindle and then commenting on it for blog posts. Still have a ton of the book left to go through....but MAN does that book take a very very dark turn after Montreal happens. It's quite I will never begrudge Bret for being such a grump.

Any recommendations on other books? I am reading Titan Screwed by James Dixon now (in depth on WWF from 1997 thru WM14) and I was thinking I might read JJ Dillon's book next.

Now that I think of it: The Hulk Hogan one from way back would be a great one on which to provide a running commentary. There are single-cell organisms that could pick that one apart.

 

[Engebretson]

Watching Raw from June 16th 1997:

Did... did Kama just pin WWF Champion The Undertaker clean in a tag match???