Class action lawsuits filed against OHL, QMJHL, & WHL

[Cgytall121]

http://www.tsn.ca/flawed-whl-law-was-passed-against-legal-advice-1.345197

I try to have an open mind with topics like this, but it is so glaringly obvious that the ENTIRE media coverage of this thing has been driven by ONE guy, who obviously has an agenda. A law passes in a state with 91-7 support, and he still argues it. My view on this whole matter is starting to take the shape that this whole CHLPA/UNION/LAWSUIT business is being driven by a small, small group who have come together to drive this forward. I just want to hear from some player other than the 2 "spokesplayers" who believe in any of this stuff. I only read this thread every few weeks, but there is never anything new from anyone that matters, only articles from this TSN guy. Weird.

 

[Marchy63]

I think people forget how much money it costs to just play hockey these days at really any level. Between equipment, ice time, coaching, travel and housing, these kids have quite a bit already and on top of that they can get a car allowance and school paid for them. If these kids want to say that they should be paid minimum wage for playing then are they going to start paying for all the "perks" they have received? Are they going to be the ones buying the $250 stick that breaks every couple of shifts? Are they going to pay rent and buy groceries? Pay for ice time and "registration fees" that other players have to pay?

The thing with the scholarship program is that most kids wait until after they leave the CHL (21 years old) to take advantage of it when most kids are going off to college at 18.years old. I received a scholarship when I was 18 and never used it, now I can go to them now and say "well the choice I made not to try and make a living didn't work out for me 15 years ago. so I think I'm going to take you up on that scholarship now". There are lots of players in the CHL that are actually getting degrees while playing hockey, just because some players choose not to does not it a sham.

Players are entitled to the scholarship for up 18 months after leaving the CHL, that does not mean that they can't use part of it while still playing in the CHL.

 

[Cgytall121]

I think people forget how much money it costs to just play hockey these days at really any level. Between equipment, ice time, coaching, travel and housing, these kids have quite a bit already and on top of that they can get a car allowance and school paid for them. If these kids want to say that they should be paid minimum wage for playing then are they going to start paying for all the "perks" they have received? Are they going to be the ones buying the $250 stick that breaks every couple of shifts? Are they going to pay rent and buy groceries? Pay for ice time and "registration fees" that other players have to pay?

The thing with the scholarship program is that most kids wait until after they leave the CHL (21 years old) to take advantage of it when most kids are going off to college at 18.years old. I received a scholarship when I was 18 and never used it, now I can go to them now and say "well the choice I made not to try and make a living didn't work out for me 15 years ago. so I think I'm going to take you up on that scholarship now". There are lots of players in the CHL that are actually getting degrees while playing hockey, just because some players choose not to does not it a sham.

Players are entitled to the scholarship for up 18 months after leaving the CHL, that does not mean that they can't use part of it while still playing in the CHL.

Well written. I believe kids get post secondary paid for while playing that does not count against their scholarship, so thats a bonus. Most kids who do not go to school by 21 or 22 never go anyway, so their argument of forcing kids to make a choice so they end up using it has merit. Most teams run 50/50's to fund the scholarships (here in sask anyway), which by law can only go into a foundation or some regulated company, so the teams prob dont care if players use it bc the money cant be used for anything else anyway. This whole "forcing players to play minor pro" argument so teams arent out money for scholarships really is a bunch of hogwash. I dont know any team owners, however i would be suprised if they are a bunch of evil scheming *******s who want what is worse for the player.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Article on Sam Berg, the player who started the lawsuit against the OHL, and some more info on the lawsuit itself:

http://thewalrus.ca/hockeys-puppy-mill/

 

[jason2020]

Article on Sam Berg, the player who started the lawsuit against the OHL, and some more info on the lawsuit itself:

http://thewalrus.ca/hockeys-puppy-mill/

I think there will be a deal where the Chl will agree to increase the education package and players will get a flat salary $10,000-20,000 per year depending on the player but players wills till get free room and board.

 

[Seattle Totems]

I think people forget how much money it costs to just play hockey these days at really any level. Between equipment, ice time, coaching, travel and housing, these kids have quite a bit already and on top of that they can get a car allowance and school paid for them. If these kids want to say that they should be paid minimum wage for playing then are they going to start paying for all the "perks" they have received? Are they going to be the ones buying the $250 stick that breaks every couple of shifts? Are they going to pay rent and buy groceries? Pay for ice time and "registration fees" that other players have to pay?

The thing with the scholarship program is that most kids wait until after they leave the CHL (21 years old) to take advantage of it when most kids are going off to college at 18.years old. I received a scholarship when I was 18 and never used it, now I can go to them now and say "well the choice I made not to try and make a living didn't work out for me 15 years ago. so I think I'm going to take you up on that scholarship now". There are lots of players in the CHL that are actually getting degrees while playing hockey, just because some players choose not to does not it a sham.

Players are entitled to the scholarship for up 18 months after leaving the CHL, that does not mean that they can't use part of it while still playing in the CHL.

People seem to have no consideration for the fact that major junior players are the product. It is ridiculous to suggest that they are getting "perks" such as sticks when private interests are selling them for entertainment and making money off of their backs. Junior players are not factory workers. They are highly skilled athletes that can not be replaced by anyone that walks in off the street. They are the business.

At the very least they deserve a few basic rights such as the right to freely choose employment in a professional minor league before the age of 20. They also deserve to be given the scholarships they were promised and not be frozen out by technicalities like so often is the case.

 

[jason2020]

People seem to have no consideration for the fact that major junior players are the product. It is ridiculous to suggest that they are getting "perks" such as sticks when private interests are selling them for entertainment and making money off of their backs. Junior players are not factory workers. They are highly skilled athletes that can not be replaced by anyone that walks in off the street and they drive the business.

At the very least they deserve a few basic rights such as the right to freely choose employment in a professional minor league before the age of 20. They also deserve to be given the scholarships they were promised and not be frozen out by technicalities like so often is the case.

As for the right to choose employment most sports league have a draft why should they not have a draft.

 

[Seattle Totems]

As for the right to choose employment most sports league have a draft why should they not have a draft.

I mean the right to play in the AHL before 20. This is an agreement between the NHL and the CHL. It has nothing to do with the CBA and junior players have no say in it. European players are not bound by it. Why should the CHL be allowed to restrict a players right to seek employment? It's an unjust rule and should be struck down.

 

[jason2020]

I mean the right to play in the AHL before 20. This is an agreement between the NHL and the CHL. It has nothing to do with the CBA and junior players have no say in it. European players are not bound by it. Why should the CHL be allowed to restrict a players right to seek employment? It's an unjust rule and should be struck down.

The issue with that is many players say hey i think i am ready and why not make a ton of money while in reality there not ready and it hurts them more then it helps as the Ahl is not a developement league.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

As for the right to choose employment most sports league have a draft why should they not have a draft.

Very few sports leagues have a draft where it hasn't been agreed upon between management and a players union.

 

[jason2020]

Very few sports leagues have a draft where it hasn't been agreed upon between management and a players union.

If your talking about jr types league very few have unions and most have drafts.

 

[seanlinden]

Very few sports leagues have a draft where it hasn't been agreed upon between management and a players union.

Not only that.... but it would be ridiculously illegal to conduct a draft of employees amongst competitors. The only reason minor hockey gets away with it (in the few leagues where drafts are present) is because they aren't considered employees.

MLS gets away with it because they are technically one legal entity... the CHL doesn't have that luxury.

The restriction on free movement of labour (to the AHL) would likely be susceptible to legal challenge as well.

Reality is, if the players can win the fight to be considered employees, they'll get unionized, and agree to some of these restrictions to earn a better wage and keep the league viable.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

If your talking about jr types league very few have unions and most have drafts.

Which we should all recognize as a problem, especially since they aren't paid.

 

[PBandJ]

I think there will be a deal where the Chl will agree to increase the education package and players will get a flat salary $10,000-20,000 per year depending on the player but players wills till get free room and board.

If I'm a CHL owner, I'm arguing that paying them a salary negates me having to pay them room and board.

 

[gstommylee]

If I'm a CHL owner, I'm arguing that paying them a salary negates me having to pay them room and board.

Exactly, the moment they start getting paid a wage is when they lose their benefits.

 

[GordonGecko]

Exactly, the moment they start getting paid a wage is when they lose their benefits.

and find a better paying owner

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Exactly, the moment they start getting paid a wage is when they lose their benefits.

We've been over this before: There are numerous occupations in which people are paid for where they are staying for work. Others, such as trades people, are paid for their transportation to and from a job, so if you're going to start taking benefits away from them you better be ready to start paying for ancillaries that are a part of the job on top on their salaries.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

If I'm a CHL owner, I'm arguing that paying them a salary negates me having to pay them room and board.

...and as a CHL owner you'd be completely entitled to do that. Having done that, I trust you wouldn't start complaining when players decline to report to your team.

Exactly, the moment they start getting paid a wage is when they lose their benefits.

You're aware that many jobs (especially those that depend on a highly skilled workforce) pay both salary and benefits, right?

and find a better paying owner

Exactly.

 

[PBandJ]

...and as a CHL owner you'd be completely entitled to do that. Having done that, I trust you wouldn't start complaining when players decline to report to your team.

Wouldn't be my problem, they want to be treated like pros, they can pay for everything the pros pay for.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Wouldn't be my problem, they want to be treated like pros, they can pay for everything the pros pay for.

what do the pros pay for?

 

[DyerMaker66*]

what do the pros pay for?

Flights to other cities, their hotels, and gym time, apparently.

 

[superdeluxe]

I think there will be a deal where the Chl will agree to increase the education package and players will get a flat salary $10,000-20,000 per year depending on the player but players wills till get free room and board.

Free Education, 20k salary and free room and board? Yeah that is not going to fly.

 

[Shawa666]

Free Education, 20k salary and free room and board? Yeah that is not going to fly.

And Free equipment...

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Free Education, 20k salary and free room and board? Yeah that is not going to fly.

And Free equipment...

Let's use these numbers as a baseline:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/b...ates-showcase-big-market-small-160225333.html

The article suggests an average of $2,719,177.38/team in ticket revenue alone. Let's divide that by two to get a reasonable share for the players and we get $1.35 million/per team rounded down to the nearest 10K.

Using the Hamilton Bulldogs as an example, they have 25 players on their roster this season. 1.35/25 = $54, 000 per player. Let's subtract the 20K salary = 34K. Now let's say two of them rent a two bedroom apartment.
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5209421-apartment-vacancy-plunges-in-hamilton/

In Hamilton that's about 960/2 = 480 a month each. 480*12= ~5700. We're left with 29K for tuition. Tuition is about 10k a year at U of T (The McMaster website is difficult to decipher), which leaves us with 19K to live off of.

It all seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[CharlieGirl]

Let's use these numbers as a baseline:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/b...ates-showcase-big-market-small-160225333.html

The article suggests an average of $2,719,177.38/team in ticket revenue alone. Let's divide that by two to get a reasonable share for the players and we get $1.35 million/per team rounded down to the nearest 10K.

Using the Hamilton Bulldogs as an example, they have 25 players on their roster this season. 1.35/25 = $54, 000 per player. Let's subtract the 20K salary = 34K. Now let's say two of them rent a two bedroom apartment.
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5209421-apartment-vacancy-plunges-in-hamilton/

In Hamilton that's about 960/2 = 480 a month each. 480*12= ~5700. We're left with 29K for tuition. Tuition is about 10k a year at U of T (The McMaster website is difficult to decipher), which leaves us with 19K to live off of.

It all seems pretty reasonable to me.

As long as we're happy with 35% to 50% of the CHL surviving, it may be able to be done. However, more teams may end up folding because after sharing half their total revenue, they'd likely be unable to cover all their expenses. Most teams have to pay for the venue they play in, along with coaching/scouting expenses, equipment, travel expenses (unless you're surmising that the players would cover those).

A few questions:

a) Are you saying that players should cover their own tuition after they're done playing? How many do you think would actually put that money aside? Isn't that a bit irresponsible?

b) Are you indicating that 16 year olds should rent an apartment and provide for themselves?