News Article: Chris Chelios on Babcock: Veteran FA's don't want to play for Babcock

[jaster]

Coaches and GMs are better when they have elite talent. When the elite talent goes away and the subsequent winning stops, both the coach and the GM always get 'worse'. It's harder on the coach since they usually have no power to recoup the elite talent if the GM is incapable of gathering it.

Babcock failed in the end because the talent went away and the players who 'put up' with his coaching style got sick of it when the winning stopped. Players will stop wanting to play for Q in Chicago when they stop winning too.

All issues are easier to overcome as long as a team is winning, agreed. And when that winning ends, the exact issues become more apparent. In Babcock's case, a lack of respect for/trust of vets was certainly one of them.

 

[SoupGuru]

let's say you're a middle six forward on a team with a hard-ass coach. He's constantly trying to find new ways to get every last bit out of you. The rest of the team is pretty good and you're likely to make the playoffs this year. You know everyone is pulling in the same direction. You can understand most of the things the coach doing to motivate you. You know you can't be the weak link so you trust the coach... he's got the big picture. You leave it all on the ice.

Now, a couple of years later, the playoffs are out of reach. The coach is still trying to get everything he can out of you. Why should you care? If you gave every ounce that you had, it wouldn't make a difference. You'd still be out of the playoffs. Playing at 98% is just as good as 100% in the grand scheme of things. But now the coach is pissed at you. And you're kind of pissed at him. Why is he trying to get under your skin for no reason?

I'm just saying the behavior of the coach may not change but the context makes a difference, I would imagine, in how the players perceive it.

 

[Bench]

I'm surprised we made it this far without bringing up Dan Cleary. There's one free agent veteran that simply couldn't bring himself to leave Babcock.

 

[lomekian]

Don't know why anyone would see the narratives of Babs being less appealing for veterans and him being an excellent coach that would be hired by people looking to win (particularly with younger rosters) are in any way contradictory.

The story about Flip has been going around for so long and from so many sources that it seems entirely plausible, but even if we discount that and the quotes from Cheli and Commodore and whoever, it still makes perfect sense.

Babs is a very very good coach, who is simultaneously and excellent systemic micromanager, a hard-ass motivator who won't accept coasting or deviation from his modus operandi, and a man who knows just how good he is and is known for having well established ego.

All these things will grate with a certain number of veteran player. No experienced confident person likes to be micromanaged. Most experienced professionals like to think they know what works for them, and how to manage their energy expenditure, and most confident people with egos don't like butting heads with even bigger egos. At 18-25 you are much more likely to look up to an experienced and successful mentor and put up with their idiosyncrasies, especially when they are good for your career. As we get older, we are all less willing to put up with things we don't like if they aren't obviously to our personal benefit.

If I had a young team with a lot of talent but a lack of experience, I'd be like Shanahan and chase babs hard. Likewise if like Stevie i had a boat load of talent and egos that need short term moulding into a grinding winning team. But from what I know about the man and the interviews he gives, I'd hate to work for someone like him at my age, unless it really was the best offer on the table.

As has been said, when the wings had one of the best 5 or 6 rosters in the league, vets will certainly put up with Babs, and equally if the other offers on the table are less appealing for other reasons. But If I have a choice between a better team with a coach who is more likeable and signing up for Babs, it would take a lot to make Babs happen.

Basically because Babs is a budget Bowman. Scotty not only had the winning record that just made most players willing to put up with his rubbish for a good while, but also he could turn on the charm like a pro when he needed to, and would do things to catch people off guard.

Babs however, would still hold more appeal than Blash, because the latter, in his short career to date just doesn't inspire much confidence at maximising players capacities at the NHL level, and ultimately, most players want to A) Win and b) maximise earning potential.

 

[Bench]

Don't know why anyone would see the narratives of Babs being less appealing for veterans and him being an excellent coach that would be hired by people looking to win (particularly with younger rosters) are in any way contradictory.

They aren't. You can be good at your job but also a pain to deal with. People put up with said pains when it is in the name of success. When success is less certain, they'd rather have a better day to day experience.

I think that's the underlying message 90% of people here are relaying.

 

[PuckDynasty]

Does he need to name the free agents who didn't want to come here for you to believe him? I doubt they'd appreciate that.

Yes, I absolutely do. If you're going to make accusations, you should have facts to back it up. Multiple veteran free agents signed with the Wings during Babcock's tenure. So clearly, what he is saying is not true. If he was just a former player, it would be one thing. But he's speaking as a current member of the Wings organization. He's trying to sell the team and make excuses for his current boss.

He tried to win his heart? Oh please, talk about sounding like a snowflake. Your boss doesn't want to be liked or to be your friend. Sounds like he liked Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, amongst many others.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

1) I know parts of Flip's situation better than the Detroit media did (or was willing/allowed to report on anyway), yes. Once he reached free agency, Flip was never going to re-sign with Detroit, and Babcock was the main reason. His contract negotiations with Detroit were likely for no other reason than to maximize what he could get from another team. Which is what a good agent will do for a player in that situation.

2) I don't know frequent instances where players didn't want to come to Detroit because of Babcock, no. I never stated that.

3) I have more insight into certain parts of Babcock's personality than you do, or most people on this board, yes. I was fortunate enough to have connections that revealed to me some things the media did not report on, or even ever know about. Cheli's comments are in line with what I know. I guess Babock is not who you thought he was

4) Because of #3, I have a strong sense of how Babcock compares to other coaches, yes. I had connections during Bowman's and Lewis's time as well, so I can directly compare some things with those two. I also know Red Berenson as a coach very well.... more comparisons, albeit at different levels.

My now-wife started working with the Wings about 15 years ago. She worked 40 feet from Scotty Bowman everyday her first year there. Her Bowman stories are numerous, that man is a gem. Through her I got to know many people with the Wings (including Mr. I's grandson and Dave Lewis's daughter), several of whom are friends to this day. All but a couple have since left the Wings, and the couple still there I have lost touch with. I had a good window into the organization for many years though. But since what I know doesn't jive with this narrative you've created for yourself, please do continue to disregard it, Mr. Smarmy. It would indeed be shamefully boring if we all agreed on everything around here

Look man, this has already been beat to death for what was an offhanded comment from Chelios.

The only narrative I've "created" is that Chelios apparently still holds a bit of a grudge that Babcock didn't play him enough as a 44 to 46 year old defenseman and that people here are taking his one sentence about no free agent wanting to play here and making it seem as if Babcock has repeatedly chased players away.

My main point was it's funny to see how the tune has changed now that he's gone. It's usually a few times a season Babcock gets retroactively blamed for something new.

And forgive me if I don't put much stock into your inside information because even if you've been around an organization a long time, what we're talking about here goes on mostly behind closed doors. So that "insider" info is still office gossip at best.

As for calling me Mr. Smarmy, maybe consider the tone you've taken in your initial response to me and every one since. Repeatedly laughing at someone's statements isn't exactly going to foster civil discussion. I guess I just couldn't win your heart, so I really can relate to how Cheli feels.

 

[Bench]

I guess I just couldn't win your heart, so I really can relate to how Cheli feels.

This is literally the best possible time I could ever post this image again.

 

[Run the Jewels]

For whatever reason?? The reason is pretty obvious. Cheli was 44 years old and slow. He was playing 18 and a half minutes a night Babcock's first year. That's a lot.

Yes, he got his icetime cut as a 46 year old. There's a fairly obvious reason for that and if Cheli thinks he deserved more icetime at that point in his career he's delusional. He's not Nick Lidstrom.

I think it was time for Babcock to move on but I get overly annoyed at people completely revising history to downplay what Babcock did here. Or stating things as facts that weren't at all.

The simple answer is Chelios was old. It's amazing he played as long as he did, but if he seriously can't figure out why he wasn't getting more icetime as a 46 year old, he has a completely unrealistic perception of his play at that point in his career. It had nothing to do with "winning Babcock's heart."

Yeah, IIRC Cheli didn't play a minute in the playoffs in 2008 when we won the Cup. He was old and ineffective so he got time during the regular season but was a healthy scratch when it mattered. Dom Hasek was sat down in the middle of that first round series against Nashville and never played another minute on the way to that Cup win. To Hasek's credit he admitted it was the worst he'd ever played in his life. It would be nice if Cheli could man up, but nope: gotta whine about how much Babs doesn't love him. I'm sure he's heartbroken about Atlanta putting him on waivers during his final year. No love for Cheli there either!!

Nick Lidstrom also had his minutes cut during his final years. Babs doesn't ride his guys into the ground, unlike Darryl Suter who plays Drew Doughty way too many minutes. That's straight out the Jeff Blashill school of coaching, only Blash does it with guys in their mid 30s.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

1) I know parts of Flip's situation better than the Detroit media did (or was willing/allowed to report on anyway), yes. Once he reached free agency, Flip was never going to re-sign with Detroit, and Babcock was the main reason. His contract negotiations with Detroit were likely for no other reason than to maximize what he could get from another team. Which is what a good agent will do for a player in that situation.

2) I don't know frequent instances where players didn't want to come to Detroit because of Babcock, no. I never stated that.

3) I have more insight into certain parts of Babcock's personality than you do, or most people on this board, yes. I was fortunate enough to have connections that revealed to me some things the media did not report on, or even ever know about. Cheli's comments are in line with what I know. I guess Babock is not who you thought he was

4) Because of #3, I have a strong sense of how Babcock compares to other coaches, yes. I had connections during Bowman's and Lewis's time as well, so I can directly compare some things with those two. I also know Red Berenson as a coach very well.... more comparisons, albeit at different levels.

My now-wife started working with the Wings about 15 years ago. She worked 40 feet from Scotty Bowman everyday her first year there. Her Bowman stories are numerous, that man is a gem. Through her I got to know many people with the Wings (including Mr. I's grandson and Dave Lewis's daughter), several of whom are friends to this day. All but a couple have since left the Wings, and the couple still there I have lost touch with. I had a good window into the organization for many years though. But since what I know doesn't jive with this narrative you've created for yourself, please do continue to disregard it, Mr. Smarmy. It would indeed be shamefully boring if we all agreed on everything around here

Everything here matches what I have heard from people around the organization. They came down in avalanche fashion when Babs left, but a part of why I soured on Babcock earlier than most was the smoke around his relationships and the descriptions I had heard from people I trust.

You can look at that as unsubstantiated rumor that cannot be confirmed or denied. But Jaster isn't alone in what he is writing here.

What sort of surprises me is that Holland unflinchingly loved Babs to the bitter end.

 

[Bench]

What sort of surprises me is that Holland unflinchingly loved Babs to the bitter end.

Babcock did bring a level of prestige and even panache to the position. Even when the Wings were first round fodder, more casual fans still held the Wings in very high regard as an organization and Canadians in particular felt Babcock was a top coach, if not THE top coach, in the NHL.

You have to think that's an appealing quality for an organization build upon such a linage, even if some feathers are ruffled time to time.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

This is literally the best possible time I could ever post this image again.

Glad some good has come of my rambling.

 

[PuckDynasty]

Filppula, like any player, left for a variety of reasons, including money. But his main reason was Babcock. This happened back when I still had some personal connections with the Wings, used to get all kinds of fun tidbits. I can't speak to every individual case of a player vs. Babcock, but I can confirm that the frequency of players not wanting to play for Babcock was seemingly much higher than with a vast majority of other coaches in the league. Pretty funny to see people spin this Babcock criticism against players like Chelios by calling them whiners or needing to be coddled Yes, Chris freaking Chelios needed to be coddled

Thing is, Babcock is a great hockey coach, but he's a control freak to the max. Sometimes to the detriment to his team. While other coaches realize the value in trusting their veteran leaders to be resources to help lead the team, Babcock is the kind of guy who finds this very difficult to do, at least on the ice and outside the lockerroom. He extends very little trust. He's a micro-manager.

I guess you missed the part where Filppula's agent came back to the Wings after he saw what he could get on the UFA market and Detroit said, thanks, but no thanks.

So the middle of the road underacheivers didn't like playing for Babcock. Oh, what a loss for the Wings. Looks like Cooper really liked Flip too. I'll bet those 30 points were totally worth the 5 million cap hit. Next thing you know, Carlo Colovaccio is going to come out and say how horrible it was to play for Babs.

What's it they used to say about Bowman? You hated him 364 days of the year, on day 365, you picked up your Stanely Cup ring.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I guess you missed the part where Filppula's agent came back to the Wings after he saw what he could get on the UFA market and Detroit said, thanks, but no thanks.

So the middle of the road underacheivers didn't like playing for Babcock. Oh, what a loss for the Wings. Looks like Cooper really liked Flip too. I'll bet those 30 points were totally worth the 5 million cap hit. Next thing you know, Carlo Colovaccio is going to come out and say how horrible it was to play for Babs.

What's it they used to say about Bowman? You hated him 364 days of the year, on day 365, you picked up your Stanely Cup ring.

OH NOES! Val Filppula left in free agency! Is this really the crux of why Mike Babcock is considered to be not a nice person?

Can we blame Babs for Marty Lapointe going to Boston?

 

[Heaton]

All issues are easier to overcome as long as a team is winning, agreed. And when that winning ends, the exact issues become more apparent. In Babcock's case, a lack of respect for/trust of vets was certainly one of them.

It's weird though, because it wasn't like Babcock ever called Filppula out. Filppula was one of Babcock's 'favorites' from the very beginning. He made the team early out of camp (hurt his finger right at the beginning IIRC). He was given a ton of minutes on the PK and the PP. But I guess maybe he didn't like how Babcock communicated? Who knows. But it wasn't like Babcock held him back. Filppula owes a lot to Babcock for playing him as much as he did. He obviously returned the favor by playing well the majority of the time, but I don't agree that Babcock didn't trust him, because he sure as hell played him a lot.

 

[Red Stanley]

Leafs were the worst team in the league last year and are in the playoffs. Jeff "golden boy" Blashill took a team on a 25 year playoff streak and turned it into one of the worst 5 teams in the league this season. So now the Wings organization has to throw shade at Babcock.

I'm sure he's concerned having a young roster of elite talent. He'll stay classy, it's easy to do when you get the hell out of dodge and move on to a team on the rise in a city where he will be deified. They should have asked Cheli if the organization should have kept Dave Lewis as coach.

Not bad. I give it 5 out of 10 on the trolling scale Looking forward to seeing the rest of the Babcock Toronto saga unfold. Hoping for a 10/10.

 

[chances14]

It's weird though, because it wasn't like Babcock ever called Filppula out. Filppula was one of Babcock's 'favorites' from the very beginning. He made the team early out of camp (hurt his finger right at the beginning IIRC). He was given a ton of minutes on the PK and the PP. But I guess maybe he didn't like how Babcock communicated? Who knows. But it wasn't like Babcock held him back. Filppula owes a lot to Babcock for playing him as much as he did. He obviously returned the favor by playing well the majority of the time, but I don't agree that Babcock didn't trust him, because he sure as hell played him a lot.

babcock did call him out, especially in his last year here

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/02/red_wings_coach_mike_babcock_v.html

 

[jaster]

Look man, this has already been beat to death for what was an offhanded comment from Chelios.

The only narrative I've "created" is that Chelios apparently still holds a bit of a grudge that Babcock didn't play him enough as a 44 to 46 year old defenseman and that people here are taking his one sentence about no free agent wanting to play here and making it seem as if Babcock has repeatedly chased players away.

My main point was it's funny to see how the tune has changed now that he's gone. It's usually a few times a season Babcock gets retroactively blamed for something new.

I don't see where he revealed a grudge. As I understand it, he was asked a question about Babcock and he answered it honestly. Just because he offered some criticisms doesn't mean he has a grudge, yeah? Again, it's strange to me how quick fans on message boards can assume players take things personally or hold grudges. I don't see evidence of that in this case.

I can't speak to any change in tone here regarding Babcock, I haven't spent much time on this forum the past year. I can say my opinion of Babcock is the same as it was when he was here. Great coach, not perfect, has warts.... one of which is not trusting his veteran players, which has resulted in some veterans wanting to avoid him. Fin.

And forgive me if I don't put much stock into your inside information because even if you've been around an organization a long time, what we're talking about here goes on mostly behind closed doors. So that "insider" info is still office gossip at best.

You don't need to request forgiveness from me. This is the internet and you don't know me, so I don't expect you to *automatically* believe my claims. But from my end, I'm just relaying information I have, take it or leave it.

As for office gossip.... there really isn't much in the way of office gossip at the Joe. We're talking about a small number of people in a small office. There are certainly private conversations among front office staff alone, sure, all the time, but otherwise the communications people, marketing people, etc., are in the loop on a lot of things, including who isn't getting along with who. You can't hide the day-to-day style of a head coach from people working right in front of him for 9 years.

As for calling me Mr. Smarmy, maybe consider the tone you've taken in your initial response to me and every one since. Repeatedly laughing at someone's statements isn't exactly going to foster civil discussion. I guess I just couldn't win your heart, so I really can relate to how Cheli feels.

What tone? Laughing about Chelios needing to be coddled and assuming his criticisms of Babcock had to do with IT? Sorry, I find that hilarious. Wasn't meant to be a personal jab. Chelios is a self-motivator if there ever was one.

 

[jaster]

I guess you missed the part where Filppula's agent came back to the Wings after he saw what he could get on the UFA market and Detroit said, thanks, but no thanks.

Agents go back and forth between teams when pursuing a contract for their client. That's negotiating.

 

[19 for president]

Blash is the perfect coach for taking a good team and putting them over the top. He eeks out every last bit of oomph from his grinders all the way up to stars. He rides his players hard. Guys that have already won and are in the twilight of their careers aren't going to love that treatment. Its also going to be hard on younger players that aren't superstars. If you get in his dog house you are basically done.

Honestly I don't know if Toronto was the best fit for him. I question if his message isn't going to wear on the Nylanders, Marners, and Mathews before they are really ready to compete for a cup. He'll get them into the playoffs probably earlier than expected, but when their real window opens in 3 or so years, will the guys already be fed up with him, much the way he sort of wore out his welcome in Detroit.

Personally I think he would have been a perfect fit for Pitts or St. Louis, but we'll see.

 

[JPE123]

I like Cheli, one of my favorite all time players. I like Babcock and think he is a good coach. The rest is cocktail talk

 

[Dotter]

Since this is a public forum; a place where we are allowed to talk about our personal opinions, feelings and unfounded theories... I'll mention that I honestly believe, without a doubt Lidstrom would have extended his contract if not for Mike Babcock.

My sense (nothing to back this up, just a feeling) is Lidstrom didn't enjoy his final years playing under Mike Babcock. But I think he loved the guys he played with, however Mike Babcock made his retirement decision very easy.

Two more years of Lidstrom wouldn't have won us the cup, but it sure would have been nice to see him bloat his all-time personal stats more.

 

[Hammettf2b]

This is nothing new. Wings fans have been saying this for a while now. This just adds some more legitimacy to it.

 

[Run the Jewels]

babcock did call him out, especially in his last year here

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/02/red_wings_coach_mike_babcock_v.html

Babcock came across as highly skeptical on the Stephen Weiss signing. Said if Weiss played the way he needed to play he'd be fine. We all know how that turned out. Perhaps Babcock knew something about Weiss the rest of us and Ken Holland didn't know?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Babcock came across as highly skeptical on the Stephen Weiss signing. Said if Weiss played the way he needed to play he'd be fine. We all know how that turned out. Perhaps Babcock knew something about Weiss the rest of us and Ken Holland didn't know?

That he was hiding a serious sports hernia injury?