News Article: Chris Chelios on Babcock: Veteran FA's don't want to play for Babcock

WingedWheel1987

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Jan 11, 2011
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This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.

Babcock was a tough coach to play for. That wasn't an issue till Detroit started to falter in the standings.

Babcock never changed though out his entire tenure with the Wings, and yet players like Rafalski and Hossa came to Detroit.

Attempting to blame Babcock for the Wings FA strikeouts is moronic.

Suter and Parise went to Minny cause they were raised in the area. Wings sign those players and Babcock is still coaching this team.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Mar 4, 2004
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Multiple - Definition - consisting of, including, or involving more than one
I understand the definition. I also understand that Commodore has shown himself to be kind of an idiot.

Hearsay is third hand information. Direct quotes from both Chelios and Commodore are not hearsay. A reporters opinion of why Flip left for Tampa is.
Hearsay also means unverified information, gossip or rumor.

It's not a reporters opinion. There are multiple sources stating that Holland offered $4.5 million. Flip got $5 million from Tampa.

I can't answer what evidence Chelios has without my own speculation, so here goes. Chelios is likely friends with a good portion of the NHL. He was also a big part of the union and a popular player for long enough that there really isn't any reason to doubt his opinion on the matter. I'm sure he knows of multiple players that hit free agency during Babs tenure that didn't want to play for him. Was he being hyperbolic when he said that "no" veteran would want to come here? probably, but I don't doubt he's telling the truth at his greater point.


You speculated that Chelios is only saying this because he was an old man who wasn't getting enough ice-time.

I didn't say Fugu wasn't also speculating but if you're going to call someone out for something you probably shouldn't do the very same thing in the same post.
See my previous post where I gave actual links refuting Fugu's revisionist history.

And Chelios's claim that Babcock didn't want him in the lineup seems odd considering the icetime he was getting as a player in his late 40s.

As for why these things are coming up now that he's gone, when else would the come out? Commodore said his piece as soon as he no longer played for Babcock and Chelios waited until he was no longer a co-worker of Babs. Why would he say these things while Babs was still here? that would make for an awkward workplace.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not talking about why Chelios would say this now. It was an off the cuff statement in an interview.

I was referring to how different Wings fans perspective and memory of Babcock is now that he's coaching the Leafs.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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The two Minnesota players to start.

You mean Parise, who's from Minnesota (as is his wife) and Suter, who's from Wisconsin and was recruited by his good friend Parise?

Parise, who is from Minneapolis, said he recruited his good friend Suter to join him in Minnesota.

"We kept in touch throughout this whole thing and we decided that we thought for both of us that the best fit would be Minnesota," Parise said in a conference call. "We're excited that it worked out and we get a chance to play with each other.

"My parents were so excited when they knew that I was considering coming back home. When I made the decision they were real excited as well. That played a big part. I grew up here, I love coming back here in the summers, and I thought, 'We enjoy it here so much it would be great to be here year round.'"

And it's a relative homecoming for Suter, who is from Wisconsin, as well.

"It came down to where I felt my family would like to live," Suter said. "My wife's from Bloomington, Minn. That had a lot to do with it. ... Minnesota has a lot of good young players that I think will help make this team successful."

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/8127442/free-agents-zach-parise-ryan-suter-sign-minnesota-wild

This is the kind of revisionist history I'm talking about.
 

FlashyG

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Dec 15, 2011
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He actually said:

He doesn't even seem to be referencing any specific instances other than maybe Suter who he says is a close friend of his.

Does he need to name the free agents who didn't want to come here for you to believe him? I doubt they'd appreciate that.

If you listen to the interview he refers to Babcock "not wanting him in the lineup." During the first couple years under Babcock Chelios got over 18 minutes a night, which is pretty good for an aging Dman who wasn't exactly fast. Yes sadly in 08 Cheli was only playing 16+ minutes a night as a 46 year old. Sounds like Babcock sure didn't like him.

Chelios went from 2nd on the team (for defenceman) in ice-time the year before Babs took over to last on the team in ice-time under Babs. (He was playing less than Andreas Lilja) That seems to jive with Chelios account of things.

Holy hyperbole. Do you really think Babcock has been immune to criticism?

Yes it was hyperbole, and no I don't think he's immune to criticism, but I do think there are people here who seem to come to his defence when he's slighted even the tiniest bit. He's a great coach, but he has flaws and one them appears to be that veterans don't like to play for him.

Im' not criticizing Cheli for it. He's never been afraid to say what he thinks. But it doesn't mean that Babcock actually chased away a bunch of potential free agents during his time here and ran roster players out of town.

Note that I didn't accuse you of criticizing Cheli, the post I quoted was PuckDynasty's. Who called him a backstabber and something that the site censored.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Does he need to name the free agents who didn't want to come here for you to believe him? I doubt they'd appreciate that.

No, but that doesn't mean they exist either.

Chelios went from 2nd on the team (for defenceman) in ice-time the year before Babs took over to last on the team in ice-time under Babs. (He was playing less than Andreas Lilja) That seems to jive with Chelios account of things.
Because of the lockout it wasn't actually the year before. It was 2004 and also a season where Kronwall only played 20 games and Hatcher only played 15 due to injury. There weren't a lot of options.

Chelios wasn't last in TOI under Babs in the first season. He was above Wooley and Lebda and played 18:29 minutes a night, which is a lot for a 44 year old who's slow as molasses.

Yes it was hyperbole, and no I don't think he's immune to criticism, but I do think there are people here who seem to come to his defence when he's slighted even the tiniest bit. He's a great coach, but he has flaws and one them appears to be that veterans don't like to play for him.

Other than one comment from Chelios and the rantings of Commodore, there's no solid evidence of this. Especially when you consider how many vets are on the Wings. And more than that I'm not sure it's a flaw. As has been mentioned, no one exactly loved Bowman either.
 

FlashyG

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Dec 15, 2011
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I understand the definition. I also understand that Commodore has shown himself to be kind of an idiot.

Idiot or not, his comments on Babcock didn't come off as lies, they came off as the honest rantings of an idiot.

Hearsay also means unverified information, gossip or rumor.

It's not a reporters opinion. There are multiple sources stating that Holland offered $4.5 million. Flip got $5 million from Tampa.

That he was offered 4.5 million is a fact, that he left because of that extra 500k is a speculative opinion of the writer. I could just as easily post the opinion of a different writer who claims that Flip would have left even if the Wings offered 5.5 million. As to which one is correct only Flip knows and its ultimately irrelvant.

See my previous post where I gave actual links refuting Fugu's revisionist history.

And Chelios's claim that Babcock didn't want him in the lineup seems odd considering the icetime he was getting as a player in his late 40s.

I wasn't agreeing with Fugu's post, I was just pointing out that you did the EXACT same thing in your post that you were criticizing.

The second point I addressed in my last point. Chelios did have his ice-time cut pretty significantly under Babcock. Perhaps that was a good decision, but it still supports Chelios statement.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not talking about why Chelios would say this now. It was an off the cuff statement in an interview.

I was referring to how different Wings fans perspective and memory of Babcock is now that he's coaching the Leafs.

I'll admit I skimmed most of the thread, but what has really changed as far as Wings fans perceptions and memories of Babcock?

I think he's a very good coach, somewhat overrated due to his success coaching Team Canada, but still among the very best in the league. I think that he's not a coach players love playing for, and that he tends to coach a style that isn't always the most exciting but is very effective.

I also think that he's a better coach than Blashill but after a decade it was time for a different message.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Nov 8, 2011
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I think he's a very good coach, somewhat overrated due to his success coaching Team Canada, but still among the very best in the league. I think that he's not a coach players love playing for, and that he tends to coach a style that isn't always the most exciting but is very effective.

I also think that he's a better coach than Blashill but after a decade it was time for a different message.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel as well. Babs has a very impressive resume and is likely a shoe-in to be in the HHOF. Still he is not without faults and I don't view him as the unquestioned best coach in the game. I think there are a few guys in front of him and was really hoping the change could jump start the franchise, it didn't but I don't think we are wildly different if Mike Babcock was our coach right now.
 

FlashyG

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No, but that doesn't mean they exist either.


Because of the lockout it wasn't actually the year before. It was 2004 and also a season where Kronwall only played 20 games and Hatcher only played 15 due to injury. There weren't a lot of options.

Technically it wasn't the year before but it was the season before.

Hatcher was his defence partner IIRC, and Chelios was averaging more ice-time per game than him before he got injured. He was ahead of Kronwall on the depth chart as well who was a rookie splitting time between Grand Rapids and Detroit.

In the first year under Babcock Chelios had his even strength ice time cut by almost 5 minutes a game. He was basically turned into a PK specialist.

Again, that's not to say that Babcock's decision was the wrong one, but it does give evidence to what Chelios was saying. Babs, for whatever reason didn't like him.

Other than one comment from Chelios and the rantings of Commodore, there's no solid evidence of this. Especially when you consider how many vets are on the Wings. And more than that I'm not sure it's a flaw. As has been mentioned, no one exactly loved Bowman either.

I'd say those statements by 2 separate players is as solid evidence as you're ever going to get about whether players like playing for a coach.

Zetterberg is too professional to come right out and say it, but even he said that it was time for Babcock to move on and that they needed that.

Who said it was a flaw? even Chelios didn't say that. He just said veterans didn't want to play for him.

There's a good chance that if a player won't sign somewhere because the coach will be too hard on them, that we were better off not signing them.

That still doesn't mean that what Chelios is saying isn't true.
 

14ari13

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Babcock seems to be really good with a limited lineup. He can bleed a stone like few others. I'm not sure he's that hot when he starts getting handed a lot of talent, because he still has that bleed a stone mentality.

Good point. I have always thought that was the case. But he has been around for a while, maybe he will/has learn/ed.
 

Shaman464

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Technically it wasn't the year before but it was the season before.

Hatcher was his defence partner IIRC, and Chelios was averaging more ice-time per game than him before he got injured. He was ahead of Kronwall on the depth chart as well who was a rookie splitting time between Grand Rapids and Detroit.

In the first year under Babcock Chelios had his even strength ice time cut by almost 5 minutes a game. He was basically turned into a PK specialist.

Again, that's not to say that Babcock's decision was the wrong one, but it does give evidence to what Chelios was saying. Babs, for whatever reason didn't like him.



I'd say those statements by 2 separate players is as solid evidence as you're ever going to get about whether players like playing for a coach.

Zetterberg is too professional to come right out and say it, but even he said that it was time for Babcock to move on and that they needed that.

Who said it was a flaw? even Chelios didn't say that. He just said veterans didn't want to play for him.

There's a good chance that if a player won't sign somewhere because the coach will be too hard on them, that we were better off not signing them.

That still doesn't mean that what Chelios is saying isn't true.

2 players of literally over 90 to play for the Wings since. One who has an ego a mile wide in Chelios, who in his mid 40s was still being played nearly 1/3rd of a game despite him being slow and an offensive blackhole. The other was a 7th d-man who had "career AHL/NHL tweener" written all over him. Neither are what I would call unbiased sources. If veterans didn't want to play for Babs why did they land Hossa and Rafi? Why would Stuart resign when he had the best possible out? There is a lot of counter evidence to this article. I would say that the fact that Detroit's decline was becoming obvious had a lot more to do with it to be honest.
 

Syckle78

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Nov 5, 2011
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Players will play for hard ass coaches if they have a chance to win. If the team ia struggling they're not going to sign up for that headache. Not a big mystery why we did fine pre 2011 and not so well after.
 

PuckDynasty

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The two Minnesota players to start.

Both have said multiple times that they went to Minnesota for family reasons. We're supposed to believe Chelios, yet you won't believe Suter and Parise despite how many times they've said that.

I know it's hard for so many to believe in this day and age, but one person spouting a personal opinion doesn't make something fact. Multiple veteran free agents DID sign here with Babcock as the coach. Those are the facts.

Chelios is now the mouthpiece for an organization that has to explain why the playoff streak of 25 years has ended. Easiest person to throw under the bus is someone no longer with the organization. Who were all these great guys we've gotten since Babcock left?
 

obey86

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Jun 9, 2009
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Players will play for hard ass coaches if they have a chance to win. If the team ia struggling they're not going to sign up for that headache. Not a big mystery why we did fine pre 2011 and not so well after.

Has anyone said otherwise?

No doubt that if a team is great, vets would be much more willing to play for a coach they dislike, play for less money, play in a city they don't particularly like, etc etc. When the team is average at best, not so much.

That doesn't change anything Chelios said or make it incorrect.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Technically it wasn't the year before but it was the season before.

Hatcher was his defence partner IIRC, and Chelios was averaging more ice-time per game than him before he got injured. He was ahead of Kronwall on the depth chart as well who was a rookie splitting time between Grand Rapids and Detroit.

In the first year under Babcock Chelios had his even strength ice time cut by almost 5 minutes a game. He was basically turned into a PK specialist.

Again, that's not to say that Babcock's decision was the wrong one, but it does give evidence to what Chelios was saying. Babs, for whatever reason didn't like him.

For whatever reason?? The reason is pretty obvious. Cheli was 44 years old and slow. He was playing 18 and a half minutes a night Babcock's first year. That's a lot.

Yes, he got his icetime cut as a 46 year old. There's a fairly obvious reason for that and if Cheli thinks he deserved more icetime at that point in his career he's delusional. He's not Nick Lidstrom.

I'd say those statements by 2 separate players is as solid evidence as you're ever going to get about whether players like playing for a coach.

Zetterberg is too professional to come right out and say it, but even he said that it was time for Babcock to move on and that they needed that.

Who said it was a flaw? even Chelios didn't say that. He just said veterans didn't want to play for him.

There's a good chance that if a player won't sign somewhere because the coach will be too hard on them, that we were better off not signing them.

That still doesn't mean that what Chelios is saying isn't true.

I think it was time for Babcock to move on but I get overly annoyed at people completely revising history to downplay what Babcock did here. Or stating things as facts that weren't at all.

The simple answer is Chelios was old. It's amazing he played as long as he did, but if he seriously can't figure out why he wasn't getting more icetime as a 46 year old, he has a completely unrealistic perception of his play at that point in his career. It had nothing to do with "winning Babcock's heart."
 

Wingsfan 4 life

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Apparently, I'm the only one who thinks what Chelios said is nothing more than a weird kind of sales pitch.
 

jaster

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Jun 8, 2007
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Flip left for more money and more icetime that he wouldn't get behind Dats and Z.

Filppula, like any player, left for a variety of reasons, including money. But his main reason was Babcock. This happened back when I still had some personal connections with the Wings, used to get all kinds of fun tidbits. I can't speak to every individual case of a player vs. Babcock, but I can confirm that the frequency of players not wanting to play for Babcock was seemingly much higher than with a vast majority of other coaches in the league. Pretty funny to see people spin this Babcock criticism against players like Chelios by calling them whiners or needing to be coddled :laugh: Yes, Chris freaking Chelios needed to be coddled :laugh:

Thing is, Babcock is a great hockey coach, but he's a control freak to the max. Sometimes to the detriment to his team. While other coaches realize the value in trusting their veteran leaders to be resources to help lead the team, Babcock is the kind of guy who finds this very difficult to do, at least on the ice and outside the lockerroom. He extends very little trust. He's a micro-manager.
 

jaster

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And yet Shanny is part of the brain trust to give Babcock the largest contract an NHL coach has ever seen. Weird. Then there's Steve Yzerman as executive director of Team Canada has Babcock coaching that team, and strongly influencing player selections, twice.

For really wanting to get away from the guy, these boys sure do find ways to keep him close and put him into positions of influence.

All of that said, I'm confident Babcock is a pain in the ass to play for just like Belichick, but without the billion titles.

A team led by youth like Toronto and an international squad that plays a handful of games are not good comparisons to a veteran-heavy NHL squad. Babcock's faults just don't apply to the former two nearly as much.
 

Bench

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A team led by youth like Toronto and an international squad that plays a handful of games are not good comparisons to a veteran-heavy NHL squad. Babcock's faults just don't apply to the former two nearly as much.

Sure, that's fine. But if the argument is that Babcock drove Shanny and Yzerman away, they both hired the guy when they needed a top coach. Which kind of erodes the argument that they truly disliked him that much.

If a boss caused me to leave a company, and then I was in charge of hiring at a new company, I wouldn't speed dial that old boss first, you know?
 

Shaman464

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Sure, that's fine. But if the argument is that Babcock drove Shanny and Yzerman away, they both hired the guy when they needed a top coach. Which kind of erodes the argument that they truly disliked him that much.

If a boss caused me to leave a company, and then I was in charge of hiring at a new company, I wouldn't speed dial that old boss first, you know?

The whole 'Babcock drove people out' is much easier for some to accept than Detroit just lost its luster, and wasn't as attractive as it was in the past. The former is a personality problem, the latter is a systemic problem. I would say the results under Blash show that the latter is the more likely case. (IE the continue decline, still not being a first destination for FAs, mismanagement of players, etc)
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Filppula, like any player, left for a variety of reasons, including money. But his main reason was Babcock. This happened back when I still had some personal connections with the Wings, used to get all kinds of fun tidbits. I can't speak to every individual case of a player vs. Babcock, but I can confirm that the frequency of players not wanting to play for Babcock was seemingly much higher than with a vast majority of other coaches in the league. Pretty funny to see people spin this Babcock criticism against players like Chelios by calling them whiners or needing to be coddled :laugh: Yes, Chris freaking Chelios needed to be coddled :laugh:

Thing is, Babcock is a great hockey coach, but he's a control freak to the max. Sometimes to the detriment to his team. While other coaches realize the value in trusting their veteran leaders to be resources to help lead the team, Babcock is the kind of guy who finds this very difficult to do, at least on the ice and outside the lockerroom. He extends very little trust. He's a micro-manager.

So you had inside information on the Wings including knowing for sure the main reason Flip left, know frequent instances where people didn't want to play in Detroit due to Babcock, know Babcock's management style on the ice and in the lockerroom, and have a perspective on how that relates to other coaches around the league.

:laugh:

Sure thing buddy. Thanks for the scoop! :thumbu:
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
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Coaches and GMs are better when they have elite talent. When the elite talent goes away and the subsequent winning stops, both the coach and the GM always get 'worse'. It's harder on the coach since they usually have no power to recoup the elite talent if the GM is incapable of gathering it.

Babcock failed in the end because the talent went away and the players who 'put up' with his coaching style got sick of it when the winning stopped. Players will stop wanting to play for Q in Chicago when they stop winning too.
 

jaster

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Jun 8, 2007
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Sure, that's fine. But if the argument is that Babcock drove Shanny and Yzerman away, they both hired the guy when they needed a top coach. Which kind of erodes the argument that they truly disliked him that much.

If a boss caused me to leave a company, and then I was in charge of hiring at a new company, I wouldn't speed dial that old boss first, you know?

Sports message boards are funny. Posters are often quick to take things personally on behalf of certain players/coaches when, in the actual world of the NHL, these players/coaches are not taking things personally very often at all. The point I'm driving at is that just because Shanny may (I don't know this to be true like I do with Filppula) not have liked Babcock as a coach, that doesn't mean he took it personally. And Shanny is a pretty bright guy; I would expect him to be rational about the situation. Meaning: while he may not have liked Babcock as a coach and felt he didn't mesh well with veterans, he knew that Babcock is still a great coach and fits well with younger players, which makes him a perfect fit for a young, up-and-coming Leafs team.

And even if Shanny didn't like Babcock, players make choices like leaving an organization based on numerous factors. It would not have been solely because of Babcock. Some people in this thread want to argue that it was because of Babcock or not because of Babcock, period. The reality is that it's somewhere in between, and one factor of many. Different players are going to have different levels of tolerance for coaches they may not like. For guys like Chelios and Filppula it may be a much bigger factor than for other players. But all these players always consider things like coaches, talent level of team, overall fit, $$$, term, location/quality of living, etc.
 

jaster

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So you had inside information on the Wings including knowing for sure the main reason Flip left, know frequent instances where people didn't want to play in Detroit due to Babcock, know Babcock's management style on the ice and in the lockerroom, and have a perspective on how that relates to other coaches around the league.

:laugh:

Sure thing buddy. Thanks for the scoop! :thumbu:

1) I know parts of Flip's situation better than the Detroit media did (or was willing/allowed to report on anyway), yes. Once he reached free agency, Flip was never going to re-sign with Detroit, and Babcock was the main reason. His contract negotiations with Detroit were likely for no other reason than to maximize what he could get from another team. Which is what a good agent will do for a player in that situation.

2) I don't know frequent instances where players didn't want to come to Detroit because of Babcock, no. I never stated that.

3) I have more insight into certain parts of Babcock's personality than you do, or most people on this board, yes. I was fortunate enough to have connections that revealed to me some things the media did not report on, or even ever know about. Cheli's comments are in line with what I know. I guess Babock is not who you thought he was :laugh:

4) Because of #3, I have a strong sense of how Babcock compares to other coaches, yes. I had connections during Bowman's and Lewis's time as well, so I can directly compare some things with those two. I also know Red Berenson as a coach very well.... more comparisons, albeit at different levels.

My now-wife started working with the Wings about 15 years ago. She worked 40 feet from Scotty Bowman everyday her first year there. Her Bowman stories are numerous, that man is a gem. Through her I got to know many people with the Wings (including Mr. I's grandson and Dave Lewis's daughter), several of whom are friends to this day. All but a couple have since left the Wings, and the couple still there I have lost touch with. I had a good window into the organization for many years though. But since what I know doesn't jive with this narrative you've created for yourself, please do continue to disregard it, Mr. Smarmy. It would indeed be shamefully boring if we all agreed on everything around here :laugh:
 

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