News Article: Chevy not pressured!

[Jet]

Having been around for awhile I can remember the previous incarnation of the Jets and some of the decisions they decided to make because they felt they "needed" to make some moves. They listened to the media(far worse back then) and the fans.

1995 - Jets were an average team with a lot of good young talent. Tkachuk,Selanne and Zhamnov where entering their prime years. It was supposed to be a promising season that turned into mediocrity with some less the stellar coaching from old guard Terry Simpson.

The Jets GM at the time was John Paddock and while yes it was a "lame duck" season he decided to make a move to "shake" things up. That move was trading Selanne to the Ducks for Tverdosky,Kilger and a 3rd round pick. Great move! That will show them!

Selanne goes on to a Hall of fame career playing the next 2000 years scoring tons of goals. Tverdosky is well a lame duck here and eventually heads back to the Ducks, ok maybe that is not fair he had a good season in Phoenix.

A rash decision and the wrong one and the one shining superstar is gone forever and he will always think of himself as a DUCK not a JET.

Selanne was a money trade, not a hockey trade. I don't know why people try to characterize it differently.

 

[Grind]

I agree with you in general that he needs to start getting better at player acquisition through other means but I have given him a pass up until this point due to a piss poor asset base upon which to trade for players. If its status quo going into next year I will agree but I don't believe it will be.

As you said the proof will be in the pudding with regards to drafting I'm another couple of years. I disagree with your notion that they are at best above average on the basis of how many players they have in the league vs others. That runs completely against the development aspect ofthe model. For instance i dont consider teams like Buffalo that are rushing all of their picks into the league superior at drafting. I would rather focus on quality and that won't be determined for a number of years.

Too soon and a crude analysis anyways. How many teams are rushing guys because they are tight to the cap? How many teams have had consistently high picks? How many of those teams are dressing 20 and unders because their team stinks? How many of the picks who are in the NHL were overagers? The Atlanta franchise was raked over the coals for rushing players to the NHL before they were ready, now we're taking a critical view of the number of guys on our NHL roster from the last 3 drafts, particularly when 2 of our 3 1st rounders are emerging as cornerstones on the NHL roster?

I'm just going to say, that shakehead emoticon is really not beneficial to constructive debate.

Regarding the bolded in both parts above. Sure, maybe using how many players have made the shown isn't a good metric, but its also the only one that makes Chevy look decent at this whoel draft and develop thing. Otherwise we should probably scrap them alltogether right? That's the option

. You can't arbitrarily decide which prospects are rushing and which ones are successful. What metric would be "success"? Boxcars? TOI? POsession stats? The problem is even if you switch the metric, Scheif and Trouba are actually pretty bad at all of these. You can either qualify it, or ignore it. Otherwise your leaving way too much up to interpretation and personal "feelings".

So yes, the option is either Too soon to evaluate, or "slightly above average". So if it's soon to evaluate, the only thing you can evaluate him on is the other stuff, which he hasn't been above average at.

That's the only point i'm trying to make. Very few business and professional positions are paid for 5 years in the hope that something positive comes out, especially if their isn't a single metric provided during that time that can give them the confidence their on the right path. Thats all i'm getting at.




I still support chevy. I'm at the very least indifferent to him. And i totally get that he's been in pretty unique circumstances. I get that we shouldn't expect any movement till the trade deadline due to cap.

My point being, if he hasn't done anything significant by next fall, my mind will be 100% made up on him, and I don't feel that's "being impatient". There's no way to show him as anything above what almost any other GM in the league could have/has accomplished since he got here.

 

[Jet]

I think it's hilarious how people expect Cheveldayoff to continually spin something out of nothing. Then we see **** like this on these boards:

Santorelli? Why did we pick up this guy? He's ****** useless player OMG!!1!!1!!

Then they turn around and:

Santorelli? Why did Chevy not resign him??? He is a great player OMG!!1!!11

No one has a crystal ball. People were calling for Chevy's head over Joki signing. They wanted him to be a buyout ffs! What would have happened around here if Chevy WOULD HAVE bought Jokinen out and he performed like he has for us this year for another team? The pitchforks would be out in full force.

Being a General Manager does not allow you to look at development or players on a day to day basis. That is the coaches job. Mike Santorelli is the same player this year he was last. Olli the same. Circumstance changes.

Chevy is very rightly taking the long view. He is trying to improve the team today by not sacrificing the future. That is not an easy task in today's NHL.

 

[Grind]

I think it's hilarious how people expect Cheveldayoff to continually spin something out of nothing. Then we see **** like this on these boards:

Santorelli? Why did we pick up this guy? He's ****** useless player OMG!!1!!1!!

Then they turn around and:

Santorelli? Why did Chevy not resign him??? He is a great player OMG!!1!!11

No one has a crystal ball. People were calling for Chevy's head over Joki signing. They wanted him to be a salary dump ffs. What would have happened around here if Chevy WOULD HAVE bought Jokinen out and he performed like he has for us this year for another team? The pitchforks would be out in full force.

Being a General Manager does not allow you to look at development or players on a day to day basis. That is the coaches job. Mike Santorelli is the same player this year he was last. Olli the same. Circumstances changes.

Chevy is very rightly taking the long view. He is trying to improve the team today by not sacrificing the future. That is not an easy task in today's NHL.

which is fine and I understand that. My point being, he has done less to improve the team today and most other gm's have with there own, while at the same time, there is no way to quantify/qualify that he is improving our team in the long run MORE then other GMS are improving their own. Now i'm assuming your post wasnt targeted at me as this isn't impatience or kicking and screaming, this is just logical deduction.

Short term = - (we are worse then last year)
Long term = ?
chevy = +

.....how does that work? That' s my only question. I think it's totally fair to call it a leap of faith at this point. One that i'm getting less and less comfortable taking.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Selanne was a money trade, not a hockey trade. I don't know why people try to characterize it differently.

It doesn't matter what kind of trade it was. It was the wrong trade to make. It was a rush trade to help a team struggling to win. Lets move one of the young guys out and shake things up. Oh we had to do it because of money but in the end it was absolutely the wrong thing to do.

 

[Jet]

which is fine and I understand that. My point being, he has done less to improve the team today and most other gm's have with there own, while at the same time, there is no way to quantify/qualify that he is improving our team in the long run MORE then other GMS are improving their own. Now i'm assuming your post wasnt targeted at me as this isn't impatience or kicking and screaming, this is just logical deduction.

Short term = - (we are worse then last year)
Long term = ?
chevy = +

.....how does that work? That' s my only question. I think it's totally fair to call it a leap of faith at this point. One that i'm getting less and less comfortable taking.

No I wasn't aiming that at you at all. I agree with you as well, I think that the GM has to continually try and improve the team now, as long as it doesn't negatively impact the longer term goals.

I don't think we are worse than last year. I think if we were in the Eastern Conference we'd be firmly in a playoff spot. I also believe that if a couple of his moves would have turned out the way we wanted them to the past couple seasons (Mittens, Fehr, Joki last year, Seto this year) we wouldn't be complaining so much.

I do think that Chevy could have done more about the goaltending but inexplicably he and the rest of the org. seem to think that Pav/ Monty is somehow going to get you in the postseason.

I've said this many, many times but this off season will really solidify my opinion of Cheveldayoff as a GM. There are 3 things he clearly needs to do: Fire the coach, upgrade the goaltending, and trade Byfuglien. This is the year he needs to do it -- Buff's value just plummets from here, our goaltending is OBVIOUSLY not good enough and I won't go on about the coaching.

Just as I gave Noel a very fair chance to prove to me he was the appropriate coach for this team, I think Chevy should get the same opportunity, and GM's by nature of what they do just get longer.

 

[Jet]

It doesn't matter what kind of trade it was. It was the wrong trade to make. It was a rush trade to help a team struggling to win. Lets move one of the young guys out and shake things up. Oh we had to do it because of money but in the end it was absolutely the wrong thing to do.

But I am saying it WASN'T that. Selanne got traded because there was no way the org was going to afford him and they were offloading salary. It wasn't a hockey deal at all.

PS I totally agree with you. I am NOT behind trading for trading's sake.

 

[Grind]

No I wasn't aiming that at you at all. I agree with you as well, I think that the GM has to continually try and improve the team now, as long as it doesn't negatively impact the longer term goals.

I don't think we are worse than last year. I think if we were in the Eastern Conference we'd be firmly in a playoff spot. I also believe that if a couple of his moves would have turned out the way we wanted them to the past couple seasons (Mittens, Fehr, Joki last year, Seto this year) we wouldn't be complaining so much.

I do think that Chevy could have done more about the goaltending but inexplicably he and the rest of the org. seem to think that Pav/ Monty is somehow going to get you in the postseason.

I've said this many, many times but this off season will really solidify my opinion of Cheveldayoff as a GM. There are 3 things he clearly needs to do: Fire the coach, upgrade the goaltending, and trade Byfuglien. This is the year he needs to do it -- Buff's value just plummets from here, our goaltending is OBVIOUSLY not good enough and I won't go on about the coaching.

Just as I gave Noel a very fair chance to prove to me he was the appropriate coach for this team, I think Chevy should get the same opportunity, and GM's by nature of what they do just get longer.

agree with just about everything except the bolded, and even that I half agree with. I think our roster this year is better then year 1s roster. I think its very similar to last years roster.

We've got the same goal tending,

I think a better top six (now, this was not the case until scheifs emergence),

but a worse D core. Despite what everyone thinks about the negotiator, we're seeing the same issue of the last year, possibly compounded.We don't have a solid second pair of d men. This causes

A) a third pairing dman to get too many minutes and

B) our first pair to take too many minutes.

All of this with the move into the tougher division (which they had known was going to happen so I call that an excuse not a reason as performance is always relative) i think says our Teams regressed (though again, I also feel it could potential be better with different coaching)

 

[Gm0ney]

I think it's hilarious how people expect Cheveldayoff to continually spin something out of nothing. Then we see **** like this on these boards:

Santorelli? Why did we pick up this guy? He's ****** useless player OMG!!1!!1!!

Then they turn around and:

Santorelli? Why did Chevy not resign him??? He is a great player OMG!!1!!11

No one has a crystal ball. People were calling for Chevy's head over Joki signing. They wanted him to be a buyout ffs! What would have happened around here if Chevy WOULD HAVE bought Jokinen out and he performed like he has for us this year for another team? The pitchforks would be out in full force.

Being a General Manager does not allow you to look at development or players on a day to day basis. That is the coaches job. Mike Santorelli is the same player this year he was last. Olli the same. Circumstance changes.

Chevy is very rightly taking the long view. He is trying to improve the team today by not sacrificing the future. That is not an easy task in today's NHL.

Chevy's the GM equivalent of playing for the tie in the 3rd period. I don't think anyone is demanding Holmgren-style throw-caution-to-the-wind management...Just less of this so-conservative-we-won't-deal-anything-more-valuable-than-a-2nd-round-pick stuff.

 

[surixon]

Chevy's the GM equivalent of playing for the tie in the 3rd period. I don't think anyone is demanding Holmgren-style throw-caution-to-the-wind management...Just less of this so-conservative-we-won't-deal-anything-more-valuable-than-a-2nd-round-pick stuff.

The smart play the first few years was to be conservative. We needed to be careful with the few assets we had. Now that we have acquired more depth and have some kids breaking in he can afford to be bolder this off season. If Chevy still sits on his hands this summer than I will agree with him being too passive. There are a number of holes that need to be plugged but the good news is that outside of goaltending none of them are major positions.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

But I am saying it WASN'T that. Selanne got traded because there was no way the org was going to afford him and they were offloading salary. It wasn't a hockey deal at all.

PS I totally agree with you. I am NOT behind trading for trading's sake.

I know but that is what people are advocating. We have to do so something for something's sake. Whether it is financial or your team is playing poor.

When you do that you end up getting bent over a barrel on those kinds of deals.

 

[Warhead77]

It doesn't matter what kind of trade it was. It was the wrong trade to make. It was a rush trade to help a team struggling to win. Lets move one of the young guys out and shake things up. Oh we had to do it because of money but in the end it was absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Yes, it was.

But it wasn't a 'Winnipeg Jets' move. It was a 'Phoenix Coyotes' move.

Blame them - not Jets 1.0
Paddock didn't have any choice at all. It was the new Yotes owners at the time. They are the ones who made that deal happen.

 

[Grind]

I know but that is what people are advocating. We have to do so something for something's sake. Whether it is financial or your team is playing poor.

When you do that you end up getting bent over a barrel on those kinds of deals.

Is that the only way to characterize it? Action for the sake of Action?

When is action not just for the sake of action?


this teamth 11th from the bottom of the league

10 points out of a playoff spot,

and an 11+ game win streak away from matching the lowest playoff teams Points Per Game.

Management had stated they wanted to make the playoffs this year, they clearly can't/aren't. The team has failed at a goal it most definitely set. Now, they said they weren't going to do anything rash if they didn't make the playoffs, but we're not talking about doing something rash.

Is the off season the only time were allowed to make a trade? I just don't get this. We're not talking about rebuilding, blowing it up or taking the first offer that comes along.

All we're talking about is actually doing something. The team needs something considerable to happen. Tweaks won't get us where we need to be. That's not being rash. We've been watching the same team for 3 years.

For those that characterize the position of "seeing some movement/action towards improvement would be nice" crowd as wanting "trades for the sake of trades", when isn't "seeim some movement/action towards improvement" allowed? I mean at some point it has to supported, when is that tipping point going to come a long for the Fans of Penultimate Patience?

 

[surixon]

Is that the only way to characterize it? Action for the sake of Action?

When is action not just for the sake of action?


this teamth 11th from the bottom of the league

10 points out of a playoff spot,

and an 11+ game win streak away from matching the lowest playoff teams Points Per Game.

Management had stated they wanted to make the playoffs this year, they clearly can't/aren't. The team has failed at a goal it most definitely set. Now, they said they weren't going to do anything rash if they didn't make the playoffs, but we're not talking about doing something rash.

Is the off season the only time were allowed to make a trade? I just don't get this. We're not talking about rebuilding, blowing it up or taking the first offer that comes along.

All we're talking about is actually doing something. The team needs something considerable to happen. Tweaks won't get us where we need to be. That's not being rash. We've been watching the same team for 3 years.

For those that characterize the position of "seeing some movement/action towards improvement would be nice" crowd as wanting "trades for the sake of trades", when isn't "seeim some movement/action towards improvement" allowed? I mean at some point it has to supported, when is that tipping point going to come a long for the Fans of Penultimate Patience?

I think even the patience people know Chevy needs to do something. The problem is that very few trades happen during the year. I challenge you to list the non deadline deals the last few years! Nobody is saying you need to wait, but based on past patterns the deadline, draft and summer are when most trades happen. Has there even been an impact trade in general this year yet? I don't count the Smid trade asan impact deal.

 

[scelaton]

I don't think we are worse than last year. I think if we were in the Eastern Conference we'd be firmly in a playoff spot. I also believe that if a couple of his moves would have turned out the way we wanted them to the past couple seasons (Mittens, Fehr, Joki last year, Seto this year) we wouldn't be complaining so much.

Just as I gave Noel a very fair chance to prove to me he was the appropriate coach for this team, I think Chevy should get the same opportunity, and GM's by nature of what they do just get longer.

Now tell the truth. If we were "firmly in a playoff spot" this year would you still be calling for Noel's head?
I doubt most of the anti-Noel crowd would be heard from if that were the case. And yet, if the only factor separating us from playoff contention is the move to the W Conference, how is that attributable to Noel or Chevy?

 

[Grind]

I think even the patience people know Chevy needs to do something. The problem is that very few trades happen during the year. I challenge you to list the non deadline deals the last few years! Nobody is saying you need to wait, but based on past patterns the deadline, draft and summer are when most trades happen. Has there even been an impact trade in general this year yet? I don't count the Smid trade asan impact deal.

so far some players that could add something to this team have been moved. I'm not saying "look tehse guys were traded why weren't we in on it" but i'm saying that means acquiring something similar isn't totally out of the realm of possibility

Smid

Versteeg

Moulson

Vanek

Downie

Holland

Hayes

Olson


These players run the gamut from prospects and young rfa's, to vet "pick-ups".


That being said I do know not to expect anything till the deadline, but at the sametime its unfair to charactarize anything happening before that as 'bad" which is what seems to be happening.

 

[Positive]

Gotta remember that every GM is competing against 29 other GM's to assemble their perfect team. It's never as easy as it sounds. We often say something like, 'Grabovski was available! We should have got him!'...well, 28 other teams didn't get him either.

I'd even wager somewhere out there, a fan of another team has said, 'Frolik was out there, he could have filled a spot on this team. Why didn't we get him? He was there for the taking, and we didn't move and he wound up in Winnipeg.' And probably before his awful year, some fan wondered why their team didn't go after an available Olli Jokinen.

 

[surixon]

so far some players that could add something to this team have been moved. I'm not saying "look tehse guys were traded why weren't we in on it" but i'm saying that means acquiring something similar isn't totally out of the realm of possibility

Smid

Versteeg

Moulson

Vanek

Downie

Holland

Hayes

Olson


These players run the gamut from prospects and young rfa's, to vet "pick-ups".


That being said I do know not to expect anything till the deadline, but at the sametime its unfair to charactarize anything happening before that as 'bad" which is what seems to be happening.

I don't see much there other than the pending UFA's. Sure Chevy might be able to move Buff for a bunch of picks right now, but it doesn't look like any valuable young piece has been dealt yet which is what I'm guessing that he'd target. The other players look like fillers and depth pieces. Smid would have been nice but we didn't have the cap space for him.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I think you're overvaluing these guys ten fold. All of these moves made minimal improvement at best. No one is mis-remembering anything. These are not moves to take you to the next step(which for us is the playoffs). So I don't see the point is getting all excited about it.

I never put a value on them at all. I was only responding to people claiming inaction on Chevy's part. Obviously some moves were more successful than others. Claim that his moves were ineffective and I'm fine with that. But don't claim that he did nothing.

 

[Grind]

]I don't see much there other than the pending UFA's.[/B] Sure Chevy might be able to move Buff for a bunch of picks right now, but it doesn't look like any valuable young piece has been dealt yet which is what I'm guessing that he'd target. The other players look like fillers and depth pieces. Smid would have been nice but we didn't have the cap space for him.

then, pardon my bluntness, you don't know these players.

Vanek, Moulson, and Downie are the only pending UFA's listed.

Versteeg has 2 more years (and is indeed a good depth scorer)

Smid represents a top 4 dman with term (not a great one, but we're lacking a great one already)

Hayes and Olsen are decent prospects

Peter holland is a 22 yearold third line center.

Over half of those pieces listed represent the TYPES of assets that would be beneficial for this team to acquire (again, TYPES not THE assets)

These dont' necessarily have to be the pieces in a buff trade. Our bottom 6 depth has been this teams biggest issue. acquiring a player of the same caliber as versteeg or holland would improve this teams bottom six.

Moving a more established player that isn't helping us so far this year (like setoguchi or jokinen for example) for a couple prospects of HAyes/olsen calibur would help further stock the cupboards.


Again, i'm not saying "THESE EXACT DEALS" but am merely using them to highlight that you can in fact make smart deal mid season before the deadline to a) add depth to your NHL roster or B)add youth, without making "bad" deals.

 

[surixon]

then, pardon my bluntness, you don't know these players.

Vanek, Moulson, and Downie are the only pending UFA's listed.

Versteeg has 2 more years (and is indeed a good depth scorer)

Smid represents a top 4 dman with term (not a great one, but we're lacking a great one already)

Hayes and Olsen are decent prospects

Peter holland is a 22 yearold third line center.

Over half of those pieces listed represent the TYPES of assets that would be beneficial for this team to acquire (again, TYPES not THE assets)

These dont' necessarily have to be the pieces in a buff trade. Our bottom 6 depth has been this teams biggest issue. acquiring a player of the same caliber as versteeg or holland would improve this teams bottom six.

Moving a more established player that isn't helping us so far this year (like setoguchi or jokinen for example) for a couple prospects of HAyes/olsen calibur would help further stock the cupboards.


Again, i'm not saying "THESE EXACT DEALS" but am merely using them to highlight that you can in fact make smart deal mid season before the deadline to a) add depth to your NHL roster or B)add youth, without making "bad" deals.

I know all those players quite well, my point was that outside of Vanek (1st line player), Moulson (top 6 player) all the rest of those pieces fall into the same category as the depth pieces that Chevy brought in this summer. Given our lack of cap space this year there isn't any realistic way that we could bring any of those players in without sending contracts out. So we can have fun rearranging the depth palyer mix all we want.

Does substituting Seto for say Verstegg or Smid make us all that better this year? To me all that would be doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, we'd close one depth hole and open another. We have seen Chevy rearrange the depth on this team a number of times with very little effect. We are in agreement that it is an issue, I am also advocating that instead of continuing to rearrange it, we need to add to the good pieces that we have (i.e Frolik) and to do that we need cap space which we wont have until the summer.

When I think about big moves to me it means trading a core piece. I.e a Buff for the Schenn's type of thing where we get young players with upside and very rarely are these types of deals made during the season.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

surixon: bravo - you've very aptly conveyed what I tried to convey on the last page. Agree with your take.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

I think it's hilarious how people expect Cheveldayoff to continually spin something out of nothing. Then we see **** like this on these boards:

Santorelli? Why did we pick up this guy? He's ****** useless player OMG!!1!!1!!

Then they turn around and:

Santorelli? Why did Chevy not resign him??? He is a great player OMG!!1!!11

No one has a crystal ball. People were calling for Chevy's head over Joki signing. They wanted him to be a buyout ffs! What would have happened around here if Chevy WOULD HAVE bought Jokinen out and he performed like he has for us this year for another team? The pitchforks would be out in full force.

Being a General Manager does not allow you to look at development or players on a day to day basis. That is the coaches job. Mike Santorelli is the same player this year he was last. Olli the same. Circumstance changes.

Chevy is very rightly taking the long view. He is trying to improve the team today by not sacrificing the future. That is not an easy task in today's NHL.

Everyone needs to read this post! Took the words right out of my mouth. Well said good sir!

 

[BigZ65]

I know all those players quite well, my point was that outside of Vanek (1st line player), Moulson (top 6 player) all the rest of those pieces fall into the same category as the depth pieces that Chevy brought in this summer. Given our lack of cap space this year there isn't any realistic way that we could bring any of those players in without sending contracts out. So we can have fun rearranging the depth palyer mix all we want.

Does substituting Seto for say Verstegg or Smid make us all that better this year? To me all that would be doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, we'd close one depth hole and open another. We have seen Chevy rearrange the depth on this team a number of times with very little effect. We are in agreement that it is an issue, I am also advocating that instead of continuing to rearrange it, we need to add to the good pieces that we have (i.e Frolik) and to do that we need cap space which we wont have until the summer.

When I think about big moves to me it means trading a core piece. I.e a Buff for the Schenn's type of thing where we get young players with upside and very rarely are these types of deals made during the season.

Agreed. We're all plugged up with plugs. We need some elite guys at certain positions where we have no one (start at forward generally). Moulson would probably be a bit better than Seto, but losing the assets to get him probably wouldn't be worth it at this point, we aren't close enough to make those moves unless it is for a core player.

This offseason is the one to make the big moves with an actual market with available cap room. All this talk is way premature. You can add more or different UFA's, you can add guys in trade that are going to be here for one season, but if we don't have the base it is pointless. You'd be taking ice from guys like Schiefele and Trouba who will form that base. Let's see what happens with Byfuglien, Wheeler, Kane this off-season. If all those guys are back with us and 1-2 of them haven't turned into several near or NHL-ready prospects and guys that strengthen us down the middle and up front, then pound the drum in September by all means.

 

[Grind]

I know all those players quite well, my point was that outside of Vanek (1st line player), Moulson (top 6 player) all the rest of those pieces fall into the same category as the depth pieces that Chevy brought in this summer. Given our lack of cap space this year there isn't any realistic way that we could bring any of those players in without sending contracts out. So we can have fun rearranging the depth palyer mix all we want.

Does substituting Seto for say Verstegg or Smid make us all that better this year? To me all that would be doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, we'd close one depth hole and open another. We have seen Chevy rearrange the depth on this team a number of times with very little effect. We are in agreement that it is an issue, I am also advocating that instead of continuing to rearrange it, we need to add to the good pieces that we have (i.e Frolik) and to do that we need cap space which we wont have until the summer.

When I think about big moves to me it means trading a core piece. I.e a Buff for the Schenn's type of thing where we get young players with upside and very rarely are these types of deals made during the season.

Zero AMD frolic are not the pieces I'd be changing. I mean adding those types of players do not cost either team a tone. smid was had for less ten a seto. As was Holland. Versteeg (a seto equiv) returned two good prospects. Againbi feel pike your making it out to be harder then it is/was.

I disagree that the above mentioned trades constitute rearranging deck chairs.

That's not rearranging deco chairs