News Article: Chara charts course for a healthy return

[RustyBruins72]

I don't have a problem with what you propose. I, for one, don't have a problem with Chara being a 2nd paring leader but of course that requires DH to be ready to be #1 which I'm not sure he is just yet.

I think, in short, the Bruins defense needs a major overhaul over the next few years -- but don't think that's news.

I guess the biggest thing about this thread though is the issue I have is with the select few people who want to just say "the guy is done", "the guy is useless", "he hasn't done anything good for three years".

That's just disrespectful and with those kinds of fans, who needs Habs fans.

If the guy is out partying, slacking off on keeping in shape, and showing signs he doesn't care then have at it. But since that's never been the case, nor is it now, with Chara some fans around here need to show a bit more class and a bit more respect.

Or does Normand Leveille also suck because he couldn't stay healthy?

That's an outstanding post.

 

[Bmessy]

I bet Martin St. Louis thought he would be a lot better than he is right now at his age. But he is sucking out loud.

When you get older your body just doesn't respond like it used to. (I'm only 26 so take that for what it is I guess haha.)

Even if you are ultra motivated it still might not mean much when your body is breaking down or not recovering as quickly. There are very few Jagrs. Let's hope Chara can continue being a #1, or atleast adapt his game to his body and remain effective, or we are ****ed.

 

[Jean_Jacket41]

Yes. An injury-riddled horrible season, following ones previous to it that weren't that good. The tallest player in the NHL in his late 30's...
.

Agree. He was awful in 13-14...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=723699

 

[njbruin*]

I don't have a problem with what you propose. I, for one, don't have a problem with Chara being a 2nd paring leader but of course that requires DH to be ready to be #1 which I'm not sure he is just yet.

I think, in short, the Bruins defense needs a major overhaul over the next few years -- but don't think that's news.

I guess the biggest thing about this thread though is the issue I have is with the select few people who want to just say "the guy is done", "the guy is useless", "he hasn't done anything good for three years".

That's just disrespectful and with those kinds of fans, who needs Habs fans.

If the guy is out partying, slacking off on keeping in shape, and showing signs he doesn't care then have at it. But since that's never been the case, nor is it now, with Chara some fans around here need to show a bit more class and a bit more respect.

Or does Normand Leveille also suck because he couldn't stay healthy?

The funny part about this is, I read how Chara should be given more respect etc.... but I read countless threads where Reilly Smith is treated with less respect them a member of ISIS. When it comes to fan favorites there are definitely different sets of rules and perceptions.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

Nice dismissing of the Norris angle. All that writing and you still didn't say anything. Are you saying the Norris consideration doesn't reflect chara's play? Or are you saying because players like Subban & karlsson have won it, the trophy doesn't mean anything anyways. Chara had an unlucky injury that had nothing to do with his age. That's why he had an off season last year. I still believe he will return to top pairing form next season.

What exactly is your angle on the injury? What information do you have to say it had "nothing to do with his age"?

I'm just saying the Norris argument, as a whole, doesn't hold much water for me. It's voted on by people who have no chance to truly evaluate all of the candidates and all of the players who could possibly receive it. I will tell you right now that I could never, with all the hockey I watch, tell you who the best defensive D-man in the league is. There's just way too much to look at with way too many players to observe.

Ultimately my point in that post on the Norris was that it holds no water for some people when it doesn't involve one of their favorite players (and "hated" players like Subban and defensively-absent Erik Karlsson), but it's a huge sticking point in an argument as to why Chara is great. It's one of the most obvious examples of hypocrisy based on agenda you can find on this site. Either people need to put stock into what the award means or they shouldn't. The meaning of the award can't be "telling" for a guy on your team, yet "meaningless" when it's a guy on a team you don't root for.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

I don't have a problem with what you propose. I, for one, don't have a problem with Chara being a 2nd paring leader but of course that requires DH to be ready to be #1 which I'm not sure he is just yet.

I think, in short, the Bruins defense needs a major overhaul over the next few years -- but don't think that's news.

I guess the biggest thing about this thread though is the issue I have is with the select few people who want to just say "the guy is done", "the guy is useless", "he hasn't done anything good for three years".

That's just disrespectful and with those kinds of fans, who needs Habs fans.

If the guy is out partying, slacking off on keeping in shape, and showing signs he doesn't care then have at it. But since that's never been the case, nor is it now, with Chara some fans around here need to show a bit more class and a bit more respect.

Or does Normand Leveille also suck because he couldn't stay healthy?

It's not that I don't understand and have respect for your point. After all, I do respect Chara and respect your angle. But, not in this particular argument with what we are discussing.

I think that turning the argument, once again, back to "respect" for Chara undermines any point talking about his current play and his predicted play going forward.

I personally have tons of respect for the guy. I've made enough posts where I've expressed that to really have to type it out again. But, I am frustrated by the fact that I'm supposed to feel obligated to have some sort of feeling or emotion toward the guy because of what he has contributed in the past. I am evaluating based on the present, what I've seen in the recent past, and what I predict in the future, based on factors such as injury, age, and simply the realities of what the NHL game does to a human body. I don't feel the guy deserves disrespect, but I also don't feel that a poster not having the "respect" you or others might have for him is at all valid in determining his future with this team. If anything, it clearly distracts from that discussion.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

Agree. He was awful in 13-14...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=723699

I'm not getting into the Norris argument again with yet another poster. If you're really interested in my already stated views on that, go to one of my many other posts in this thread.

 

[Jean_Jacket41]

I'm not getting into the Norris argument again with yet another poster. If you're really interested in my already stated views on that, go to one of my many other posts in this thread.

If you think that Chara wasn't good/great in 13-14, then I can't help you...

Chara is not in his prime anymore. And there is questions marks after getting injured for the first time in his time in Boston last year. Will he be back to dominating Chara? We'll have to see next year.

But even a reduced Chara is still one of the best shutdown D and PKer in the league. Might be overpaid by some at 6.9M for the next 2 years if his play stays like last year but seeing Orpik getting 5.5M last year on UFA and what Petry/Sekera/etc will get this summer, it's not by much.

 

[TheReal13Linseman]

I don't have a problem with what you propose. I, for one, don't have a problem with Chara being a 2nd paring leader but of course that requires DH to be ready to be #1 which I'm not sure he is just yet.

I think, in short, the Bruins defense needs a major overhaul over the next few years -- but don't think that's news.

I guess the biggest thing about this thread though is the issue I have is with the select few people who want to just say "the guy is done", "the guy is useless", "he hasn't done anything good for three years".

That's just disrespectful and with those kinds of fans, who needs Habs fans.

If the guy is out partying, slacking off on keeping in shape, and showing signs he doesn't care then have at it. But since that's never been the case, nor is it now, with Chara some fans around here need to show a bit more class and a bit more respect.

Or does Normand Leveille also suck because he couldn't stay healthy?

Talk about disrespectful. I have a hard time seeing that anyone who was a Bruins fan, or even alive, in 1982 would cast that allusion if they had witnessed that tragedy.

Again, getting back to the point, I don't think anyone is claiming the guy doesn't have heart or courage or a bad attitude. The issue is simply advancing age, likelihood of injury, his surrounding cast and a coach that has turned a blind eye to all of this.

If one is "predicting" future outcomes, you can hope and wish for turnarounds, but the odds are that his decline will, even if slowly, continue.

As a fanbase, and maybe the Bruins management is guilty of this, too, we often engage in self-delusion concerning the current and future strengths of this club, when what would be more beneficial would be a more analytical, clear-eyed, emotionless view of things. I don't know much about baseball, but that whole notion of "Billyball" or whatever it was termed, comes to mind.

 

[Shoebottom]

What exactly is your angle on the injury? What information do you have to say it had "nothing to do with his age"?

I'm just saying the Norris argument, as a whole, doesn't hold much water for me. It's voted on by people who have no chance to truly evaluate all of the candidates and all of the players who could possibly receive it. I will tell you right now that I could never, with all the hockey I watch, tell you who the best defensive D-man in the league is. There's just way too much to look at with way too many players to observe.

Ultimately my point in that post on the Norris was that it holds no water for some people when it doesn't involve one of their favorite players (and "hated" players like Subban and defensively-absent Erik Karlsson), but it's a huge sticking point in an argument as to why Chara is great. It's one of the most obvious examples of hypocrisy based on agenda you can find on this site. Either people need to put stock into what the award means or they shouldn't. The meaning of the award can't be "telling" for a guy on your team, yet "meaningless" when it's a guy on a team you don't root for.

Tavares ran right into his knee, don't think it had anything to do with his age and how much time he is on the ice. Just plain old bad luck.
As to the Norris, you might dismiss the trophy, but even if the selection doesn't point to the best Dman in the league for you, it does indicate that that Dman is great. Maybe players like Subban or karlsson weren't deserving of that trophy, but it doesn't change the fact that both are highly coveted players who would be #1 on most teams. Chara included.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

Tavares ran right into his knee, don't think it had anything to do with his age and how much time he is on the ice. Just plain old bad luck.
As to the Norris, you might dismiss the trophy, but even if the selection doesn't point to the best Dman in the league for you, it does indicate that that Dman is great. Maybe players like Subban or karlsson weren't deserving of that trophy, but it doesn't change the fact that both are highly coveted players who would be #1 on most teams. Chara included.

Well, that's conjecture. We certainly will never know if had anything to do with age. I certainly think it can be said that injuries are more prominent and likely at an older age, but who knows if this would have happened had he been younger? To something that is definitively fact: injuries are much harder to recover from in an older player as opposed to a younger one.

Chara going forward, with another year where he may continue to decline and his value may drop, is a distinct possibility. As a matter of fact, with everything considered, I think everyone should have the guts to acknowledge it's more likely than a "return to greatness" for Chara. I am not saying it's impossible for him to be better than last season, but given his age, the nature of his injury, his sheer size as a human being, etc. I don't see it as "likely" and from reading these posts I feel like many people are being emotionally optimistic rather than actually weighing the probabilities and other options.

Sometimes, it feels like my views on this topic (granted, nothing has been specifically directed at me from what I can see) are lumped into this argument of how I don't have "respect" for the athlete Chara is. It has nothing to do with respect, something I have a ton of for Z. That's making it an emotional argument instead of one that deals directly with the production level and effectiveness on the ice.

And, I'm with you on the Norris point. Clearly, I don't put the same amount of trust into it as you do, but I can see that you view it as a legitimate award for all players who receive it, not just guys on your team. Not everyone around here does that, and those are the people I was targeting with my comment. I'm sorry if I wrongly grouped you into that sect of opinion.

 

[missingchicklet]

Chara has immense amounts of pride in his performance and works like a beast on his conditioning. If he is able to come back healed and healthy he will still be a force on defense. I'm under no illusion that he will ever be the premiere shutdown defenseman in the NHL like he once was, but I'm pretty sure he can still be an excellent defender and contribute heavily to the Bs.

 

[robert terwilliger]

The funny part about this is, I read how Chara should be given more respect etc.... but I read countless threads where Reilly Smith is treated with less respect them a member of ISIS. When it comes to fan favorites there are definitely different sets of rules and perceptions.

reilly smith's been in the league for fifteen minutes. chara's earned the respect he's given by not only his teammates but players throughout the league by outworking every single one of them.

if reilly smith wants that kind of respect, he's gonna have to earn it.

 

[njbruin*]

reilly smith's been in the league for fifteen minutes. chara's earned the respect he's given by not only his teammates but players throughout the league by outworking every single one of them.

if reilly smith wants that kind of respect, he's gonna have to earn it.

I was talking about respect from the fans and in particular those on this message board. Obviously Chara has the respect of his peers that's not even debateable.

 

[PB37]

Ah, the Norris argument.

It's a crap, meaningless award when Erik Karlsson or PK Subban wins it, but it defines a guy's perseverance and greatness when he's on your team.

Never change HF.

And missing games? Again, I don't see anyone saying the guy isn't a workhorse, and a fitness freak. Someone who has maybe the strongest commitment to the game in the league. That doesn't negate his drop in overall on-ice effectiveness over the last two years. Whether or not CJ (or anyone on HF, for that matter) is comfortable with it, you've GOT to start moving Chara out of the #1 spot, IMO.

I also don't understand how we have all these problems with puck-moving, mobility, team speed and yet so many of these same people have no problem with a 39 year old Chara as the number one D-man. Again, I don't understand the calls for a complete change in philosophy, yet we make exceptions for one of the most essential positions on the team.

There are so many things within the "Chara debate" that are just contrary to logic. I just wonder if certain members of this board will ever be able to "let go".

Add on top of his norris nods, points, etc etc, look at his advanced stats during those years, and get back to us here. You're making yourself look like an idiot.

 

[OutspokenMinority*]

Tavares ran right into his knee, don't think it had anything to do with his age and how much time he is on the ice. Just plain old bad luck.
As to the Norris, you might dismiss the trophy, but even if the selection doesn't point to the best Dman in the league for you, it does indicate that that Dman is great. Maybe players like Subban or karlsson weren't deserving of that trophy, but it doesn't change the fact that both are highly coveted players who would be #1 on most teams. Chara included.

honestly, if Chara is considered a #1 by anyone in the league, the return should be above and beyond what i would be expecting, which makes it even more desirable to move him, assuming he would agree. i think he has a full no move.

a young #2 is worth the move right now. a solid, tough #3 with a couple of 2nds might do it.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

Add on top of his norris nods, points, etc etc, look at his advanced stats during those years, and get back to us here. You're making yourself look like an idiot.

Considering I'm far from the only one who has my opinion, I don't think I'm making myself look like much of an idiot. Would probably be more the case if I was the only one who felt that way.

I've seen plenty of advanced stats. I've also watched probably 80-90% of Bruins' games in the last two seasons and my opinion is that Chara is on a steep decline, especially last season. I might not be the most advanced hockey mind in the world, but I have a decent eye for the game. I also, going forward, am facing the realities and the probability that come with the game as age goes up and injuries accrue. I know it's a really big personal attack to a lot of people here to say that there's a good chance Z won't get back to greatness, but it's a distinct probability. You can keep pretending it's some totally wacky, out of the norm prediction all you want, but the fact is it's a distinct and logical possibility.

 

[rudos1]

I hope the Bruins can be like the Patriots in that they know when a player's level of value to the team has begun to fade. I love Chara but it's time IF and only IF the return makes sense. At least try and see what is out there. I think our D is not nearly as bad as some here make it out to be and a trade for a sniper could be made for Z...

 

[jgatie]

I hope the Bruins can be like the Patriots in that they know when a player's level of value to the team has begun to fade. I love Chara but it's time IF and only IF the return makes sense. At least try and see what is out there. I think our D is not nearly as bad as some here make it out to be and a trade for a sniper could be made for Z...

NFL vs. NHL is apples vs. oranges. It's a lot easier to jettison an underperforming player when you do not have guaranteed contracts. That's why NFL players are released all the time and NHL players are (mostly) not.

 

[rudos1]

NFL vs. NHL is apples vs. oranges. It's a lot easier to jettison an underperforming player when you do not have guaranteed contracts. That's why NFL players are released all the time and NHL players are (mostly) not.

True but the basic premise is the same, know when your players are no longer at their peak and deal with them appropriately. The Bz over the last 5 or 6 years seem to keep players based more on sentimentality and past performance than they should have. I for one would really like to see what offers would be out there and I would guess if Z knew the Bz faith in him was down and other teams would still play him as a true #1 Dman he would be willing to listen...

 

[jgatie]

True but the basic premise is the same, know when your players are no longer at their peak and deal with them appropriately. The Bz over the last 5 or 6 years seem to keep players based more on sentimentality and past performance than they should have. I for one would really like to see what offers would be out there and I would guess if Z knew the Bz faith in him was down and other teams would still play him as a true #1 Dman he would be willing to listen...

No, the premise is not the same, or at least achieving it is not the same. If you find a player has declined in the NFL, you release him. End of story. If you find a player has declined in the NHL, you can release him (and be on the hook for his salary and cap hit), you can trade him (and hope for a decent return on a declining player), or you can (sometimes) buy him out. So comparing how the NHL handles declining players with the way the NFL does it is silly.

 

[rudos1]

No, the premise is not the same, or at least achieving it is not the same. If you find a player has declined in the NFL, you release him. End of story. If you find a player has declined in the NHL, you can release him (and be on the hook for his salary and cap hit), you can trade him (and hope for a decent return on a declining player), or you can (sometimes) buy him out. So comparing how the NHL handles declining players with the way the NFL does it is silly.

Well if the only way to deal with them was to waive or release them I would agree but there are trades to be made and my point was not holding on to players past their primes really no more but fine have it your way...

 

[jgatie]

Well if the only way to deal with them was to waive or release them I would agree but there are trades to be made and my point was not holding on to players past their primes really no more but fine have it your way...

I stated you can trade them. But you yourself said they are in decline. So tell me how you improve your team by trading a player in decline? Who is going to give you a better player for one in decline? Improving your team by jettisoning a player (by any means) is much harder to achieve in the NHL than it is in the NFL, which is why asking the Bruins to treat players like they do in the NFL is silly.