Post-Game Talk: Champs @ Canes | Caps Win 6-5 (SO) All Hail the King Alexander Ovechkin

[The Deadly Pook Gas]

3rd game in 4 nights for the canes

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[Devil Dancer]

In case you haven't read the NHL forum lately:



Pretty wild stuff from the Canes owner.

Makes our boy Ted look pretty good in comparison.

 

[Silky mitts]

In case you haven't read the NHL forum lately:



Pretty wild stuff from the Canes owner.

Makes our boy Ted look pretty good in comparison.

Sure it's easy to upgrade your D just trade a 24 year old 2 way center who doesn't snipe who needs those

 

[Corby78]

Defense can be bought?

 

[The Deadly Pook Gas]

 

[Corby78]

Wilson back! extended sit for Bura, man I would love to be a fly on the wall when GMBM has discussions on what to do with him.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

I mean, there's some validity to not going after defense high in the draft.

Since the 2005 lockout, the teams that have won the Stanley Cup have had 3 defensmen that they drafted in the top 20:

Pens - Brooks Orpik - #18 2000
Blackhawks - Brent Seabrook - #14 2003
Kings - Drew Doughty - #2 2008

Unless I'm missing someone, that number only increases to 6 if you expand to the entire 1st round (Kronwall, Carlson and Maatta).

Put another way, of all the defensmen drafted in the first round since 2000, only 6 have won a Cup with the team that drafted them. (I don't count Ryan Whitney since he didn't play a playoff game in the first post-lockout Pens' Cup)

So yeah, it seems crazy at first blush, but I don't think it really is.

 

[Langway]

I don't know about buying them so much as doing well to find them later in the draft ala Keith & Letang or being able to acquire them while still relatively young like Dumoulin or as UDFA like Muzzin. Dundon said he wouldn't be drafting a defenseman in the first round as long as he's there but that seems rather short-sighted given their current makeup. There should always be exceptions to that but I do think there's wisdom in not taking one early unless they're an exceptional two-way, all-situations type talent.

The other thing about taking forwards and doing well at that is you're going to be much more of a cap team whereas Carolina hasn't been that for quite some time IINM. CapFriendly has them with the most cap space in the league so I guess he plans on paying these talents he'll amass? They have two forwards making over $4M so, I mean, maybe trying buying them also? Maybe hold on to Skinner, see how he fits and wait to make a decision until the deadline?

 

[HTFN]

I mean, there's some validity to not going after defense high in the draft.

Since the 2005 lockout, the teams that have won the Stanley Cup have had 3 defensmen that they drafted in the top 20:

Pens - Brooks Orpik - #18 2000
Blackhawks - Brent Seabrook - #14 2003
Kings - Drew Doughty - #2 2008

Unless I'm missing someone, that number only increases to 6 if you expand to the entire 1st round (Kronwall, Carlson and Maatta).

Put another way, of all the defensmen drafted in the first round since 2000, only 6 have won a Cup with the team that drafted them. (I don't count Ryan Whitney since he didn't play a playoff game in the first post-lockout Pens' Cup)

So yeah, it seems crazy at first blush, but I don't think it really is.

Was about to say the same thing. Capitals "bought" half of last year's Cup defense (Kempny, Niskanen, Orpik) and only drafted Carlson in the first round. I don't know if it can be said that there's more boom potential in mid/late round forwards than in defensemen overall, but given Carolina's concern lies in putting the puck in the net rather than moving it around I see what he's going for here.

 

[Sam Spade]

Wilson back! extended sit for Bura, man I would love to be a fly on the wall when GMBM has discussions on what to do with him.

What is to discuss? Burka is nothing, MAYBE a third rounder on his own.

And Wiz you may be correct about not wasting first rounders on dmen, but Dunden is 100% high if he thinks he can buy them. Top defenders are like gold, it's why they rarely make it to free agency anymore (think Carlson, Doughty, etc.). While I do believe Karlsson will not re-sign in San Jose he is an exception because of all the insanity in Ottawa and their cheap ass owner.

Was about to say the same thing. Capitals "bought" half of last year's Cup defense (Kempny, Niskanen, Orpik) and only drafted Carlson in the first round.

No disrespect to our Cup winning guys but we probably had to take Orpik to get Niskanen, and Kempny was just a big fat kudos to the pro scouting staff.

 

[kicksavedave]

Was about to say the same thing. Capitals "bought" half of last year's Cup defense (Kempny, Niskanen, Orpik) and only drafted Carlson in the first round. I don't know if it can be said that there's more boom potential in mid/late round forwards than in defensemen overall, but given Carolina's concern lies in putting the puck in the net rather than moving it around I see what he's going for here.

Was thinking about this though, the Kempny trade. How many times did GMGM make trades or UFA acquisitions for Dmen that were utter disgusting failures? Go all the way back to Dimitri Mironov, who made an all star game before GMGM signed him but he was junk for us. So many other failures, my old brain can't remember them all, but Wideman, ShatDeuces, Poti, Hillen, Hamrlik, Hannan, Juice, Pothier, TFS, so many more. We sure tried to "buy" defense and failed year after year. GMBM on the other hand, pretty much nailed it with Oprik, Nisky and Kempny. And thats why BM won a Cup in his 4th year and McPhee is still trying ~20 years later.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Was thinking about this though, the Kempny trade. How many times did GMGM make trades or UFA acquisitions for Dmen that were utter disgusting failures? Go all the way back to Dimitri Mironov, who made an all star game before GMGM signed him but he was junk for us. So many other failures, my old brain can't remember them all, but Wideman, ShatDeuces, Poti, Hillen, Hamrlik, Hannan, Juice, Pothier, TFS, so many more. We sure tried to "buy" defense and failed year after year. GMBM on the other hand, pretty much nailed it with Oprik, Nisky and Kempny. And thats why BM won a Cup in his 4th year and McPhee is still trying ~20 years later.

When you go completely half-assed, does it really count as trying to buy?

Remember, GMGM walked away from 29 year-old Chara because $7.5M was too rich for him.

 

[Chukcha]

What is to discuss? Burka is nothing, MAYBE a third rounder on his own.

And Wiz you may be correct about not wasting first rounders on dmen, but Dunden is 100% high if he thinks he can buy them. Top defenders are like gold, it's why they rarely make it to free agency anymore (think Carlson, Doughty, etc.). While I do believe Karlsson will not re-sign in San Jose he is an exception because of all the insanity in Ottawa and their cheap ass owner.

No disrespect to our Cup winning guys but we had to take Orpik to get Niskanen, and Kempny was just a big kudo to the pro scouting staff.

it might be his strategy based on uncommon vision . There are several GMs who think right opposite, see Shero, Ray. He has drafted a bunch of dmen during his pens tenure in 1-2 rounds: Pouliot, Maatta, Morrow, Harrington, Despres, Strait, and traded Staal for Dumoulin, despite the pens desperately needed cheap quality wingers on ELCs. It looks like after Whitney and Goligoski trades he got crazy a little bit and decided his strategy "draft dmen and profitably trade them for whatever you want" works fine .

 

[Langway]

When you go completely half-assed, does it really count as trying to buy?

Yeah, McPhee didn't buy so much as dumpster dive and thought he knew something other GMs didn't. Whereas MacLellan hasn't been afraid to take his shot and live with the consequences. MacLellan also sort of dumpster dived with Gleason & Weber but hopefully that's more of a thing of the past. They really shouldn't need to do that with defensemen for some time.

 

[Chukcha]

it's very interesting to look at JDub. Kuzy a couple years ago praised him very high in russian media, they became very close friends and he said something like this: "I've never played with such smart linemate as Justin Williams. He isn't fast, he doesn't make crazy dekes, his shot is not a cannon, but it's unbelievable how he reads the game and properly uses space and partners. It's impossible to force him to make a turnover or catch him on a bad hit, and i've never seen another player who makes just a couple of simple moves and forces an opposing player to take a wrong decision. We are always chatting and he always teaching me how to make some little smart plays to free up some space and time on ice. Players like him are very rare and i'm very lucky to play with him on the same line."

 

[Hivemind]

it's very interesting to look at JDub. Kuzy a couple years ago praised him very high in russian media, they became very close friends and he said something like this: "I've never played with such smart linemate as Justin Williams. He isn't fast, he doesn't make crazy dekes, his shot is not a cannon, but it's unbelievable how he reads the game and properly uses space and partners. It's impossible to force him to make a turnover or catch him on a bad hit, and i've never seen another player who makes just a couple of simple moves and forces an opposing player to take a wrong decision. We are always chatting and he always teaching me how to make some little smart plays to free up some space and time on ice. Players like him are very rare and i'm very lucky to play with him on the same line."

Williams is still one of my favorite players of the past decade. Really wish he had been around for the Cup team. If the RWs continue to ail as we get closer to the deadline (I know they're currently in the lineup), I'd consider him as a trade option.

 

[kicksavedave]

When you go completely half-assed, does it really count as trying to buy?

Remember, GMGM walked away from 29 year-old Chara because $7.5M was too rich for him.

Didn't he also pass on Pronger due to the cost/comp being too high? Point still is, one cannot simply buy a defense, but hitting a home run on Kempny (for a 3rd, LOL) and hitting triples with Nisky/Orpik, the difference in GM chops between GMGM and BM is pretty apparent.

I mean we all howled like mad at the Orpik contract at his age, but maybe we didn't know everything. Seems aside from being a part of the Cup run itself, he's credited with helping teach a lot of those other guys how to be true professionals. Hard to put a price on teaching guys how to win, but that Orpik contract is a long distant memory and the Cup is a memory that will last forever!

 

[Chukcha]

Williams is still one of my favorite players of the past decade. Really wish he had been around for the Cup team. If the RWs continue to ail as we get closer to the deadline (I know they're currently in the lineup), I'd consider him as a trade option.

yeah, it's definitely one of the best GMBM's moves to bring him to DC. His mentorship was priceless for the team.

 

[Hivemind]

Was thinking about this though, the Kempny trade. How many times did GMGM make trades or UFA acquisitions for Dmen that were utter disgusting failures? Go all the way back to Dimitri Mironov, who made an all star game before GMGM signed him but he was junk for us. So many other failures, my old brain can't remember them all, but Wideman, ShatDeuces, Poti, Hillen, Hamrlik, Hannan, Juice, Pothier, TFS, so many more. We sure tried to "buy" defense and failed year after year. GMBM on the other hand, pretty much nailed it with Oprik, Nisky and Kempny. And thats why BM won a Cup in his 4th year and McPhee is still trying ~20 years later.

Shattenkirk was a GMBM acquisition. GMBM also traded for Mike Weber and Tim Gleason, both of which were considerable duds. Also Jerebek, depending on how you evaluate his stay in Washington and lack of post-season contributions.

Wideman was acquired for a 3rd + empty contract. He was dirt cheap and made sense as Green injury insurance (and his early returns were very positive).
Poti was great when he was healthy. I don't blame GMGM for Poti destroying his groin.
Hamrlik was great in his first season in Washington, the partner that Mike Green had always needed. Then he imploded in his second season.
Hannan and Pothier were flubbed attempts at fixing the top four, but most of the rest of our names were depth guys. Depth guys come and go, and if you're not going to hold Weber, Gleason, Chorney, or Ness against GMBM, it doesn't make much sense to handwring about GMGM's depth acquisitions.

 

[Devil Dancer]

Does anyone know what happened to Djoos?

Edit: never mind, just saw the other thread. f***ing megathreads are the worst.

 

[Devil Dancer]

What's crazy about Dundon's comments isn't the strategy, I'm warry of drafting D high as well, it's A) that the owner is making such a decision and B) the absolutism.

Does he really mean never? What if they had 1 OA this year, would they have passed on Dahlen?

 

[twabby]

What's crazy about Dundon's comments isn't the strategy, I'm warry of drafting D high as well, it's A) that the owner is making such a decision and B) the absolutism.

Does he really mean never? What if they had 1 OA this year, would they have passed on Dahlen?

Reminder that the Hurricanes new owner made his fortune off of subprime auto loans to desperate poor people, so he is likely a sociopath with a huge ego.

 

[kicksavedave]

Shattenkirk was a GMBM acquisition. GMBM also traded for Mike Weber and Tim Gleason, both of which were considerable duds. Also Jerebek, depending on how you evaluate his stay in Washington and lack of post-season contributions.

Wideman was acquired for a 3rd + empty contract. He was dirt cheap and made sense as Green injury insurance (and his early returns were very positive).
Poti was great when he was healthy. I don't blame GMGM for Poti destroying his groin.
Hamrlik was great in his first season in Washington, the partner that Mike Green had always needed. Then he imploded in his second season.
Hannan and Pothier were flubbed attempts at fixing the top four, but most of the rest of our names were depth guys. Depth guys come and go, and if you're not going to hold Weber, Gleason, Chorney, or Ness against GMBM, it doesn't make much sense to handwring about GMGM's depth acquisitions.

My bad, yeah Shat was on GMBM, pretty terrible transaction after all said and done. Main point, which you ignore to highlight details, is that GMGM failed to build a Cup winning defense in 15 years. GMBM built one with 3 inherited draft picks and 3 add ons of his own, in 4 years. The standard is not "never missing" on a player, its building a Champion. Not handwringing over anything, just pointing out the differences between the two GMs.

Mainly:

 

[895]

I'm still a bit conflicted on GMGM's legacy here.

Forsberg for Erat is obviously a -1000 move but he made a ton of smaller moves that really panned out well before that.

Ruthless acquisition of Fedorov.
Huet
Eminger for Carlson
Clark for Chimera
Steckel for Arnott
Varlamov for Forsberg

That's just off the top of my head.

I would say the Forsberg for Erat trade is an anomaly in an otherwise stellar trading resume but then he went and did two absolutely terrible trades involving Tatar. So who knows.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I mean, there's some validity to not going after defense high in the draft.

Since the 2005 lockout, the teams that have won the Stanley Cup have had 3 defensmen that they drafted in the top 20:

Pens - Brooks Orpik - #18 2000
Blackhawks - Brent Seabrook - #14 2003
Kings - Drew Doughty - #2 2008

Unless I'm missing someone, that number only increases to 6 if you expand to the entire 1st round (Kronwall, Carlson and Maatta).

Put another way, of all the defensmen drafted in the first round since 2000, only 6 have won a Cup with the team that drafted them. (I don't count Ryan Whitney since he didn't play a playoff game in the first post-lockout Pens' Cup)

So yeah, it seems crazy at first blush, but I don't think it really is.

Furthering this.....the Caps only top 20 D draft pick since the lock-out...Karl Alzner....actually had to *be jettisoned* off the roster in order for the Caps to win the Cup. Mind blown?