GWT: Champions League - Quarterfinals

[robertmac43]

Tough day at the office...Literally. Had to watch Arsenal bow out while at a conference.

Thought we played decent over the two-legs and then the wheels kind off in the last 30 minutes today. Overall happy to be back in the CL and go on a little bit of a run. Hopefully we are back stronger in the competition next year.

On to winning every game for the rest of the PL season while cheering for every team that plays City over that stretch

 

[Savant]

Salah had multiple years of pro-experience, including having played in the Champions League, you think Saka was more prepared than him because he played for Arsenal’s academy? Wouldn’t that mean their U21 team should smoke Basel head-to-head each and everytime?

Age absolutely does matter, that’s why 99,9% of players are better at 25 than they’re at 18, even players who are ”ready” to play big minutes already at 16 like Yamal.

And no, you didn’t just say Saka had a bad game, you went on these embarrasing rants about trophy cases etc. to the point where i, a person who doesn’t care about either one of Liverpool or Arsenal felt like i had to say something.

I think by the time Saka got into the Champions League he was plenty prepared for it. Saka isn’t 16 any more. He wasn’t 16 when he made his UCL debut; so again let’s not pretend this is the same. My point is when Salah was taking multi hour treks across rural Egypt to get looks, Saka was already involved in one of the best academy infrastructures on the planet for many years.

Age matters and age doesn’t matter. It’s not binary. My point is that exceptional talent like Yamal and Saka; when they are ready, then they are ready. If you want to make the point Saka wasn’t ready for UCL at 16, sure, but again Saka was not 16 when he debuted in UCL

I said Saka had a bad game (which he did), then as WBS said, the Arsenal fans heads exploded and deflected to about Liverpool being in Europa League, Salah/Saka, etc. So yeah, I am going to talk about trophy cases. I didn’t start any of this.

For a person who doesn’t post here often, and self-proclaimed doesn’t care about either team; we can talk about the main character syndrome that you are demonstrating talking about the self-righteous white knighting you are trying do if you want to talk about second hand embarrassment .

That being said, always good to have another participant on the forum. I’m sure as shit not going to be here forever so hopefully the pipeline is strong.

When I commented about Saka limp it was not because I find him a bad player, quite the opposite, it's just about the internet meme (which is funny) about him limping every time he has a bad game and for banter. But this then started to go down fast because it felt like a Liverpool fan is attacking the prodigious child.

Don't be mad Arsenal fan, Salah has been victim of similar fate and meme, a lot, especially after his comment about Madrid prior to CL final that LFC lost. That was peak meme and direct attack from madrista to him.

Anyway, get some fresh air, Saka is just starting his career and Arsenal will be a top side for a long time. It was just a bad game.

That’s the funny thing to me too. No one said anything bad about Saka as a player. Just that he had a bad game. But the pearl clutching and deflections are just way too much

 

[OKR]

I think by the time Saka got into the Champions League he was plenty prepared for it. Saka isn’t 16 any more. He wasn’t 16 when he made his UCL debut; so again let’s not pretend this is the same. My point is when Salah was taking multi hour treks across rural Egypt to get looks, Saka was already involved in one of the best academy infrastructures on the planet for many years.

Age matters and age doesn’t matter. It’s not binary. My point is that exceptional talent like Yamal and Saka; when they are ready, then they are ready. If you want to make the point Saka wasn’t ready for UCL at 16, sure, but again Saka was not 16 when he debuted in UCL

I said Saka had a bad game (which he did), then as WBS said, the Arsenal fans heads exploded and deflected to about Liverpool being in Europa League, Salah/Saka, etc. So yeah, I am going to talk about trophy cases. I didn’t start any of this.

For a person who doesn’t post here often, and self-proclaimed doesn’t care about either team; we can talk about the main character syndrome that you are demonstrating talking about the self-righteous white knighting you are trying do if you want to talk about second hand embarrassment .

That being said, always good to have another participant on the forum. I’m sure as shit not going to be here forever so hopefully the pipeline is strong.


That’s the funny thing to me too. No one said anything bad about Saka as a player. Just that he had a bad game. But the pearl clutching and deflections are just way too much

”Main character syndrome” is insanely wild thing to be said by a guy who literally replied with ”I don’t even know you” because i called your posts embarrasing on a public forum

I don’t care one bit what others said that prompted you to say all that embarrasing stuff, it doesn’t make the things you said any less stupid. Stop with the childish ”he started it” stuff, you’re getting more and more embarrasing post by post.

Salah had 4 years of playing and training proffesionally when he got booted from Chelsea, but i guess that doesn’t matter at all because he wasn’t prepared for it in the correct ”infrastructures”

If it makes it easier for you to understand, you can take Salah and Saka out of the equation totally and just replace them with ”Player X” and ”Player Y”, and if you still don’t understand why the things you’re saying are stupid, then you’re just a lost cause.

 

[Savant]

”Main character syndrome” is insanely wild thing to be said by a guy who literally replied with ”I don’t even know you” because i called your posts embarrasing on a public forum

I don’t care one bit what others said that prompted you to say all that embarrasing stuff, it doesn’t make the things you said any less stupid. Stop with the childish ”he started it” stuff, you’re getting more and more embarrasing post by post.

Salah had 4 years of playing and training proffesionally when he got booted from Chelsea, but i guess that doesn’t matter at all because he wasn’t prepared for it in the correct ”infrastructures”

If it makes it easier for you to understand, you can take Salah and Saka out of the equation totally and just replace them with ”Player X” and ”Player Y”, and if you still don’t understand why the things you’re saying are stupid, then you’re just a lost cause.

I said I don’t know you because you don’t regularly post on this forum. What’s wild about that? Maybe I could say I don’t recognize you, but let’s not get it twisted here. And yeah I’d think main character syndrome is very appropriate here to describe what you are going for.

It’s funny, it’s not the LFC fans you are keeping this Salah/Saka thing going here. You are taking it even further off the rails, so it’s not even worth replying to at this point

 

[OKR]

I said I don’t know you because you don’t regularly post on this forum. What’s wild about that? Maybe I could say I don’t recognize you, but let’s not get it twisted here. And yeah I’d think main character syndrome is very appropriate here to describe what you are going for.

It’s funny, it’s not the LFC fans you are keeping this Salah/Saka thing going here. You are taking it even further off the rails, so it’s not even worth replying to at this point

Literally all i’m doing is replying to things you post on a public forum?

How is that either a sign of ”main-character syndrome” or me keeping this going on?

You’ve lost the plot entirely ffs

 

[Corto]

I'm looking forward to the semis.
I understand City is amazing, but their games - except if the opponent can score 3 goals, like Madrid's done 3x now in 6 games vs them - are mostly City choking the life out of the opponent. It's brilliant to observe - and boring to watch, if you know what I mean.

Bayern-Madrid is a legit CL classic, perhaps the most iconic match up of the last 20 years.

 

[cgf]

I'm looking forward to the semis.
I understand City is amazing, but their games - except if the opponent can score 3 goals, like Madrid's done 3x now in 6 games vs them - are mostly City choking the life out of the opponent. It's brilliant to observe - and boring to watch, if you know what I mean.

Bayern-Madrid is a legit CL classic, perhaps the most iconic match up of the last 20 years.

FWIW Bayern was the one team last year that was able to starve City of the ball and push them around with their possession play. Bayern aren't playing that same way after a year of Tuchel ball, but last season that Bayern-City tie was a great watch.

 

[cgf]

Yeah this is why I hardly post anymore. No time for the nonsense.

I just ignore the nonsense unless I have a little time to kill on seeing what kind of logical knots certain posters tie themselves into...definitely have had to use the block function though for a few of our regulars

 

[cgf]

Also, I am not blaming White for the reason why we lost, but man oh man he has to do better than on that cross. It was a perfect cross, no questions asked, but you gotta make it tougher if you want to be a CL winner. Additionally, he should have done better on that chance in the first leg when it was him along with Neuer and he just shoots it right at him.

I saw a good review that Arsenal lacked the experience, not necessarily in terms of mistakes, but in terms of calmness. Bayern played their shape and waited to capitalise on the Arsenal, they were not scared by any means and I am not sure if that was Tuchel's gameplan or what, but Arsenal made a major mistake and they capitalised. That's what I suggest was the difference between the two clubs because there was not a ton to separate them, that's what honestly hurts. I will admit that Bayern probably had "more" better chances on both legs, but Arsenal was right there with them and lost due to moments where they switched off.

TBH I think it was more about Bayern finding ways to get their best players in situations to create, while you got Saka one on one with Mazraoui like 1 time in that second leg...and it's not just because Bayern doubled him, Sane was doubled the whole game too and Musiala rarely picked up the ball without 2-3 Arsenal players within a couple yards of him. Martinelli had some moments early but faded, and Odegaard was quieter than I expected.

On the other side Sane, Musiala, & Kane all had big impacts on both legs.

 

[KJS14]

I gotta hand it to the Arsenal fans on this board, takes some gusto to keep doing your "we haven't won anything but we're actually better than a side that won an insanely dominant PL, went to three Champions League Finals, and lost two more PLs by a single point" schtick immediately after losing a UCL QF to the same bogeyman as you constantly lost to before you were back. Good shit, though. Loathe am I to defend our dear friend @Savant but I don't believe he brought Liverpool into this and any attempt to deflect with "well Liverpool are in the UEL" rings pretty hollow given, well, Arsenal over the last ten years and their historical problems with Europe. But, then again, the Arsenal contingent on this board is obsessed with deflections - it's why they hated Palmer's hat trick against United and it's why any dig on Arsenal immediately gets responded to with "well your club!!!!" cope.

Anywho, for all that our dear friend @S E P H might feel otherwise, we would all do well to remember that Thomas Tuchel has more UCLs than Arsenal FC, and double the finals of Arsenal FC. He's an excellent coach, even as his Bayern stint has been poor.

This was a Savant level post. I usually expect better from you.

The only thing Arsenal fans did wrong here was enter into a discussion with Savant where the goalposts move thousands of miles with every post.

When I commented about Saka limp it was not because I find him a bad player, quite the opposite, it's just about the internet meme (which is funny) about him limping every time he has a bad game and for banter. But this then started to go down fast because it felt like a Liverpool fan is attacking the prodigious child.

Don't be mad Arsenal fan, Salah has been victim of similar fate and meme, a lot, especially after his comment about Madrid prior to CL final that LFC lost. That was peak meme and direct attack from madrista to him.

Anyway, get some fresh air, Saka is just starting his career and Arsenal will be a top side for a long time. It was just a bad game.

I understood the meme from your original post. I just personally disagree that he had a bad game. He wasn't as involved in the game because Tuchel tactically contained the right side by double teaming him with two LBs, and Ben White sat deeper than in the first leg. If Saka had tried to force things and constantly turned the ball over, then I'd say he had a bad game. But really he just didn't see as much of the ball yesterday, because with the way Bayern set up it made more sense for us to attack down the left side.

I get that Saka is at the level where if he doesn't have a great game, then people are going to say he was bad (Arsenal fans too), but the ultimate takeaway from yesterday should have been that other players missed chances to score.

 

[Chimaera]

Most of Arsenal's problems are due to a lack of spending because of the stadium and Wenger not stepping down 4-5 years before he did. Just look at Liverpool, they fired Rodgers at the time he needed to be fired and ended up with Klopp. This isn't rocket science; give people a chance, if they suck, fire them, and replace them with better blokes. And not one Arsenal fan here was arrogant by any means until Savant came to claptrap his pettiness all over the place trying to justify something to someone.

E: Both of Chelsea's CL wins were fluke fam.

do you mean prior to recently? They've spent quite a bit to get to this point.

I can't say I'm disappointed by the results yesterday. I felt Arsenal would have some problems in Europe, though I think it's more an issue of some of their players needing experience there (probably the manager too). I also think there's something to be said with the grind of the EPL. Everyone's getting tired at this stage.

 

[KJS14]

TBH I think it was more about Bayern finding ways to get their best players in situations to create, while you got Saka one on one with Mazraoui like 1 time in that second leg...and it's not just because Bayern doubled him, Sane was doubled the whole game too and Musiala rarely picked up the ball without 2-3 Arsenal players within a couple yards of him. Martinelli had some moments early but faded, and Odegaard was quieter than I expected.

On the other side Sane, Musiala, & Kane all had big impacts on both legs.

The difference to me is that Sane had Kimmich supporting him the entire game, so really he wasn't doubled. Arsenal's wingers always track back to help the fullbacks, so Martinelli was tracking Kimmich and helping with Sane of course. But Kimmich's average position for the game was basically level with Harry Kane's, whereas Ben White sat deeper (almost in a back three in buildup) for much of the game until we had to open it up.

But very true that we didn't get our best player into positions to go 1vs1 on Mazraoui. The one time I can recall him getting some space, he blew past Mazraoui and then put in a pretty poor cross.

 

[Savant]

This was a Savant level post. I usually expect better from you.

The only thing Arsenal fans did wrong here was enter into a discussion with Savant where the goalposts move thousands of miles with every post.

I think it’s very obvious that I was not the one moving goal posts yesterday. I am certainly not going rehash this today. But people can read for themselves. WBS saw/read what I saw/read; and I certainly hope (but am not optimistic that) we are the only ones

 

[cgf]

Most of Arsenal's problems are due to a lack of spending because of the stadium and Wenger not stepping down 4-5 years before he did. Just look at Liverpool, they fired Rodgers at the time he needed to be fired and ended up with Klopp. This isn't rocket science; give people a chance, if they suck, fire them, and replace them with better blokes. And not one Arsenal fan here was arrogant by any means until Savant came to claptrap his pettiness all over the place trying to justify something to someone.

E: Both of Chelsea's CL wins were fluke fam.

Arsenal has spent ~640M euros more than they’ve taken in over the past 5 years. The only clubs who spent more are Chelsea & ManU, Bayern spent ~240M more than they took in.

You can’t keep crying poor because of a stadium you paid off a decade ago lol

 

[bluesfan94]

Yeah this is why I hardly post anymore. No time for the nonsense.

At least you've become self aware

I gotta hand it to the Arsenal fans on this board, takes some gusto to keep doing your "we haven't won anything but we're actually better than a side that won an insanely dominant PL, went to three Champions League Finals, and lost two more PLs by a single point" schtick immediately after losing a UCL QF to the same bogeyman as you constantly lost to before you were back.

Helluva strawman you built there, does it come in other colors?

Good shit, though. Loathe am I to defend our dear friend @Savant but I don't believe he brought Liverpool into this and any attempt to deflect with "well Liverpool are in the UEL" rings pretty hollow given, well, Arsenal over the last ten years and their historical problems with Europe. But, then again, the Arsenal contingent on this board is obsessed with deflections - it's why they hated Palmer's hat trick against United and it's why any dig on Arsenal immediately gets responded to with "well your club!!!!" cope.

The only reason I brought up Liverpool is because even great players can have a game where they don't do much if the tactics of the other team are such. Hence why Salah has ghosted recently. The other part is that when I corrected someone's bragging bout beating Southampton in the FA Cup, I was told that I shouldn't be posting because Arsenal wasn't in the competition. The irony wasn't lost on me, but perhaps it is on you. That's okay!

”Main character syndrome” is insanely wild thing to be said by a guy who literally replied with ”I don’t even know you” because i called your posts embarrasing on a public forum

You have to understand that Savant always has to be aggrieved, no matter what happens. Liverpool could have actually done the quad and he'd find a reason to be upset. So he projects his insecurities onto others.

 

[Savant]

At least you've become self aware


Helluva strawman you built there, does it come in other colors?

The only reason I brought up Liverpool is because even great players can have a game where they don't do much if the tactics of the other team are such. Hence why Salah has ghosted recently. The other part is that when I corrected someone's bragging bout beating Southampton in the FA Cup, I was told that I shouldn't be posting because Arsenal wasn't in the competition. The irony wasn't lost on me, but perhaps it is on you. That's okay!


You have to understand that Savant always has to be aggrieved, no matter what happens. Liverpool could have actually done the quad and he'd find a reason to be upset. So he projects his insecurities onto others.

You know if you used the phrase “rent free” you would have hit a BINGO with all your usual phrase choices. Keep playing the hits though I guess. As usual, demonstrating the same old “for thee but not for Me” posting here, which again, is just funny to me. You say this like I’m the only one who gets aggrieved here, which is obviously silly. If LFC would have won the quad, I would have been very happy and you’d probably not see me here again.

Also find it hilarious that I called you lot insecure once a year and a half ago and now you like to throw it back. But new/original material isn’t your strength, which we know and is fine. But again no need to rehash any of this, people can read if they would like.

 

[cgf]

The difference to me is that Sane had Kimmich supporting him the entire game, so really he wasn't doubled. Arsenal's wingers always track back to help the fullbacks, so Martinelli was tracking Kimmich and helping with Sane of course. But Kimmich's average position for the game was basically level with Harry Kane's, whereas Ben White sat deeper (almost in a back three in buildup) for much of the game until we had to open it up.

But very true that we didn't get our best player into positions to go 1vs1 on Mazraoui. The one time I can recall him getting some space, he blew past Mazraoui and then put in a pretty poor cross.

I hear what you’re saying and I probably should’ve worded that differently, but I’m thinking of multiple scenes were Bayern pushed forward quickly so Sane ended up going at multiple defenders before Kimmich had had time to join the movement. And Musiala picked the ball up in a crowd most of the times it came to him. So it’s not like you just gave their on-ball creators free roam.

But part of what I was getting at was you guys not being able to get Saka on the ball more instead of just attacking down the left since that was where Bayern was giving you more space. Bayern had Musiala drifting wide & dropping deep to get on the ball, and Laimer pushing forward to occupy defenders that might’ve followed Jamal. Plus Kimmich pushed up to support Sane excellently when he had time to catch up with the movement.

 

[KJS14]

I hear what you’re saying and I probably should’ve worded that differently, but I’m thinking of multiple scenes were Bayern pushed forward quickly so Sane ended up going at multiple defenders before Kimmich had had time to join the movement. And Musiala picked the ball up in a crowd most of the times it came to him. So it’s not like you just gave their on-ball creators free roam.

But part of what I was getting at was you guys not being able to get Saka on the ball more instead of just attacking down the left since that was where Bayern was giving you more space. Bayern had Musiala drifting wide & dropping deep to get on the ball, and Laimer pushing forward to occupy defenders that might’ve followed Jamal. Plus Kimmich pushed up to support Sane excellently when he had time to catch up with the movement.

All fair points. I for one appreciate being able to have a reasonable discussion about the tactics rather than devolving into nonsense.

Sane was excellent over both legs. Mostly because he's a great player, and I think partly because our CBs were so focused on marking Kane tightly (even high up the pitch). It gave Sane more opportunity to feast on our LBs on the counter (especially Kiwior in the first leg), and then Kimmich was great supporting him in possession.

I think our biggest shortcoming yesterday was that we looked nervy and scared to lose the game. Like I said, Ben White was sitting much deeper even though he's usually very good at combining with Saka and Odegaard on the right side. It's a CL QF away game, but I think that was something Arteta got wrong by being too conservative. Saka did drift inside a few times after not getting much of the ball out wide, but I don't recall him receiving the ball in the middle of the pitch, as we were still forcing it down the left.

And you may not like to hear this one, but I think overall we've lacked something in interplay between the 8s and across the front line since Havertz has gotten more playing time. He does other things well - the man can run thru the channels better than most (whether he's starting as an 8 or 9), but he's not been as effective at combining with Saka/Martinelli/Odegaard. Some (maybe a lot) of that is down to us missing Xhaka as our left 8, but I like Havertz more as a utility sub than a full time starter for us.

 

[cgf]

All fair points. I for one appreciate being able to have a reasonable discussion about the tactics rather than devolving into nonsense.

Sane was excellent over both legs. Mostly because he's a great player, and I think partly because our CBs were so focused on marking Kane tightly (even high up the pitch). It gave Sane more opportunity to feast on our LBs on the counter (especially Kiwior in the first leg), and then Kimmich was great supporting him in possession.

I think our biggest shortcoming yesterday was that we looked nervy and scared to lose the game. Like I said, Ben White was sitting much deeper even though he's usually very good at combining with Saka and Odegaard on the right side. It's a CL QF away game, but I think that was something Arteta got wrong by being too conservative. Saka did drift inside a few times after not getting much of the ball out wide, but I don't recall him receiving the ball in the middle of the pitch, as we were still forcing it down the left.

And you may not like to hear this one, but I think overall we've lacked something in interplay between the 8s and across the front line since Havertz has gotten more playing time. He does other things well - the man can run thru the channels better than most (whether he's starting as an 8 or 9), but he's not been as effective at combining with Saka/Martinelli/Odegaard. Some (maybe a lot) of that is down to us missing Xhaka as our left 8, but I like Havertz more as a utility sub than a full time starter for us.

True, Kane certainly had a lot of attention on him…especially with those play switching passes he’d hit after dropping a little bit away from the CBs.


I’d definitely agree about the over cautious critique. I think that’s a big part of why your best players weren’t able to shine as much as theirs did. Arteta could’ve overloaded that area with Kai & Odegaard drifting to the right + White playing more aggressively.

Doing that instead of just taking what Bayern was giving & hoping for a mistake...if you didn't want to flip Saka & Martinelli...would’ve created space for Saka to get some rhythm with the ball and maybe even more than one chance to beat Mazraoui one on one.

I suspect Arteta was hoping the pressure to get a result at home after officially losing the league would get to Bayern so your press could create more chances for you, like it did in the first leg…which wasn’t the worst bet with how fragile this Bayern team has been this year...but isn't the kind of message I'd want to send my young team that had every reason to believe in themselves.


And yeah that wasn’t the NT-Kai I was promised lol. He didn’t seem at all in sync with the rest of the attack, did any of his flicks or attempts to play quick 1-2s come off in this tie?

 

[S E P H]

do you mean prior to recently? They've spent quite a bit to get to this point.

Arsenal has spent ~640M euros more than they’ve taken in over the past 5 years. The only clubs who spent more are Chelsea & ManU, Bayern spent ~240M more than they took in.

You can’t keep crying poor because of a stadium you paid off a decade ago lol

I'm specifically talking about the Wenger days when we employed a backline of Koscielny, Djourou, Song, Clichy, Siquilli, Jenkinson, Flamini, BFG, Walcott, Podolski, and Chamakh. Dark times.

 

[cgf]

I'm specifically talking about the Wenger days when we employed a backline of Koscielny, Djourou, Song, Clichy, Siquilli, Jenkinson, Flamini, BFG, Walcott, Podolski, and Chamakh. Dark times.

What does that have to do with this current team that you paid a fortune for?

 

[S E P H]

What does that have to do with this current team that you paid a fortune for?

The main point is that the problems we're in now are still a direct result of what happened between 2009-ish to 2017-ish, there is a lot of baggage still holding us down and a lot of the "Arsenal spending so much money" is actually flawed considering how such little money we spent during that time period. Union Berlin spent more than us. Our team still has a lot of flaws, the depth isn't good enough and we still lack that cutting edge.

 

[Chimaera]

He didn't spend for sure, but at some point, the blame for failures closing on a decade later aren't related. Maybe they would have broken through in Europe and the club would have confidence, but that's not a guarantee.

We also don't need to relitigate failures then, but the stadium wasn't the only reason not spending. There was some arrogance they could take dudes from France and turn them into stars.

 

[cgf]

The main point is that the problems we're in now are still a direct result of what happened between 2009-ish to 2017-ish, there is a lot of baggage still holding us down and a lot of the "Arsenal spending so much money" is actually flawed considering how such little money we spent during that time period. Union Berlin spent more than us. Our team still has a lot of flaws, the depth isn't good enough and we still lack that cutting edge.

...Union spent 1.9M euros more than we sold for between 2009 & 2017...

Arsenal's net transfer spend was over 100M in 2016, 24M in 2015, over 90M in 2014, & over 35M in 2013. You did earn 9M in 2012 & 13M in 2011, but in 2010 you spent 15M, after having earned 35M in 2009.

So for a 4 year stretch (2009-2012), more than a decade ago, you sold more than you bought and earned a total around 42M...a sum you pretty much wiped out the very next summer (2013) and more than doubled the year after that (2014).

It's time to give up the Wenger's cheap excuse & put on your big boy pants.

 

[S E P H]

He didn't spend for sure, but at some point, the blame for failures closing on a decade later aren't related. Maybe they would have broken through in Europe and the club would have confidence, but that's not a guarantee.

We also don't need to relitigate failures then, but the stadium wasn't the only reason not spending. There was some arrogance they could take dudes from France and turn them into stars.

But they totally are...the club that the next LFC manager is inheriting is directly impacted by getting Klopp, and you wouldn't get Klopp if you didn't fire Rodgers back in 2015. Look at where the state of the club was right after Wenger's later era and Mislintat-era?