GWT: Champions League Final: Real Madrid/Juventus

[Asiantuntija]

It's remarkable, then, that the world's best goalscorer is also the world's best playmaker. He wears number 10 on Barcelona if you haven't heard of him.

The same guy who can't do **** when competition gets tough? Yes i've heard about him.

He could be world's best playmaker (huge stretch) or even goalscorer when he plays against weak teams. But if we take a look at who is top on his game, facing high level defense it's not really a question. 5 games, 10 goals against world's toughest competion. Messi could only dream about that.

 

[Deficient Mode]

The same guy who can't do **** when competition gets tough? Yes i've heard about him.

He could be world's best playmaker (huge stretch) or even goalscorer when he plays against weak teams. But if we take a look at who is top on his game, facing high level defense it's not really a question. 5 games, 10 goals against world's toughest competion. Messi could only dream about that.

 

[bluesfan94]

The same guy who can't do **** when competition gets tough? Yes i've heard about him.

He could be world's best playmaker (huge stretch) or even goalscorer when he plays against weak teams. But if we take a look at who is top on his game, facing high level defense it's not really a question. 5 games, 10 goals against world's toughest competion. Messi could only dream about that.

It's not a huge stretch at all. It's an honest assessment that's shared by pretty much everyone. I take it you've missed the times Messi has consistently won trophies. Or you know, dragged his underperforming Argentina team to a World Cup final. Maybe you missed last weekend's cup final. I'm not sure.

What I am sure about is that when the going got tough this past summer for Portugal, Ronaldo sat on the bench with a booboo.

Plus, neither of Ronaldo's goals were impressive last night. I guess the first one was a decent finish but he was at the top of the 18 with acres of space and a perfectly weighted ball. The second one was all Modric and Buffon not being aggressive. I will give Ronaldo credit. He's become the world's best passenger footballer and that seems to trick some people into thinking he's actually still good.

 

[Asiantuntija]

It is what it is and fact's are there for everyone.

 

[Deficient Mode]

It is what it is and fact's are there for everyone.

fact's are fact's

 

[bluesfan94]

UCL Ronaldo is just a glorified World Cup Miroslav Klose. Sure, they're good in their own right, but really, it's the team around them that matters. They even both have a signature celebration.

 

[Evilo]

But 3 time CL champion Toni Kroos isn't even fit to shine the boots of French league runner up Marco Verratti. Didn't you know?

He isn't really.

 

[Asiantuntija]

It's not a huge stretch at all. It's an honest assessment that's shared by pretty much everyone. I take it you've missed the times Messi has consistently won trophies. Or you know, dragged his underperforming Argentina team to a World Cup final. Maybe you missed last weekend's cup final. I'm not sure.

What I am sure about is that when the going got tough this past summer for Portugal, Ronaldo sat on the bench with a booboo.

Plus, neither of Ronaldo's goals were impressive last night. I guess the first one was a decent finish but he was at the top of the 18 with acres of space and a perfectly weighted ball. The second one was all Modric and Buffon not being aggressive. I will give Ronaldo credit. He's become the world's best passenger footballer and that seems to trick some people into thinking he's actually still good.

Spanish Cup Final means absolutely nothing. It's a pretty much strech for me because even Modric from our team is better playmaker than Messi. I don't have problem with Messi's trophies or if someone think he is better than Ronaldo. As i said i think Messi and Ronaldo are even as a players, but i think Ronald does much better in higher stages. I just can't agree with the hate Ronaldo gets from everyone. Because there's no ****ing reason to hate him.

It's a total false statement to say Messi dragged his team to World Cup Final. He was pretty decent, but how much he scored after the group stage? 0 goals. Other players, especially their defense were big factor to bringing team to the final.

Of course everything from Ronaldo isn't impressive for you statements like this are ridiculous You know what man? It's skill to get in those positions, there is world's best defenders trying to shut him down and he scored 10 goals. You can call him passenger or whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he has beated legends like Pele and Maradona pretty clearly.

 

[Corto]

In this thread, I've found out that:
- Messi is not a good playmaker
- Kroos is not even good enough to shine Verratti's boots
- Cristiano is a glorified Miroslav Klose

Kroos was the worst midfield player on his team last night.

And it's stuff like this that makes me think people don't understand what midfield play is about.

The absolute stupid amounts of hate people give to players who aren't "theirs" is mindboggling, regardless of club or country.

 

[bluesfan94]

In this thread, I've found out that:
- Messi is not a good playmaker
- Kroos is not even good enough to shine Verratti's boots
-Cristiano is a glorified Miroslav Klose



And it's stuff like this that makes me think people don't understand what midfield play is about.

The absolute stupid amounts of hate people give to players who aren't "theirs" is mindboggling, regardless of club or country.

With regards to the bold, that wasn't what I said and even what I said should have been specified to this year's campaign.


Out of the three central midfielders on Madrid, Kroos was the worst. That doesn't mean he was bad. But he certainly wasn't better than Casemiro or Modric.

Do you disagree?

 

[Evilo]

You probably have trouble reading W7's posts. His constant overhyping of Kroos is tiring.
Yes Verratti is a better player.
Since he can't deal with it, he has to resort to those kind of "shine boots" remarks.

That you fall for this is pathetic.

 

[Asiantuntija]

Proof about Cristiano Ronaldo playmaking abilities. I know he isn't good as Messi at this attribute but all the hate about "He is selfish ***** who doesn't know how to pass" is totally ridiculous. 12 assist this season. It's pretty good amount for one season. Cristiano Ronaldo is totally underrated as a playmaker.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

In this thread, I've found out that:
- Messi is not a good playmaker
- Kroos is not even good enough to shine Verratti's boots
- Cristiano is a glorified Miroslav Klose

And it's stuff like this that makes me think people don't understand what midfield play is about.

The absolute stupid amounts of hate people give to players who aren't "theirs" is mindboggling, regardless of club or country.

It's incredibly unbecoming. Folks are more willing to bicker about Messi/Ronaldo like a buncha youtube commenters from malaysia than the actual match. It had plenty of intrigue and tactical aspects to break down - the aforementioned change of Modric's position for instance, or how Juve couldn't take leverage Dybala's position properly.

But no - more and more nonsense about teams that didn't even participate.

I bring up Kroos (once) because I'm still not over the board's stubborn, broken criticism of the guy. Like you said, they either have no idea what midfield play is about OR they have a wildly different set of notions about it. If it's the former, don't they want to educate themselves and have discussions? If it's the latter, don't they want to discuss and shed light on their own preferences? But whatever.

And the "What part of [x] you from, lad?" is a joke I've heard whenever someone who appears to not be from that place referring to their preferred team as 'we'. Nothing more than a simple joke. In London there are far too many Mancs for instance, it's a common to take digs at them. Banter, y'know. Soccer's definitely international and someone could be a die-hard from even as far as the Bangladesh or something, but the romantic element of soccer players being local heros going to representing YOUR people is still not entirely eliminated and I deeply respect it - that's why I no longer call myself a fan of the teams I follow. I'm not local, I don't speak the local language (or the dialect), I have no ties to the area whatsoever - I'll call them my preferred team, or say that I support them. Because I'm from Montreal and am a die-hard Habs fan, if the Habs win the Cup I'll have a much more visceral reaction than with other teams and sports that I follow just as closely but am not local.

 

[Evilo]

Who needs to educate himself here? I mean, really? Because we said Kroos is a top 10 midfielder, but not top 5?
The fact you can't get over it is more than homerism.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Who needs to educate himself here? I mean, really? Because we said Kroos is a top 10 midfielder, but not top 5?
The fact you can't get over it is more than homerism.

You'd be hard-pressed to infer that the random crazies here even think Kroos is a top10 midfielder. I'm not bothering with that discussion, I've argued my side of it plenty of times.

I think homerism is thinking that winning Ligue 1 with that massive budget (only when carried by Zlatan) is somehow a remotely impressive individual achievement and comparable to being a starting figure for a WC victory and two CLs (and injured for a third).

 

[Evilo]

Who talked about achievements? You and you only.
Try to link me to a post I wrote that said Verratti had achieved more than Kroos (who BTW also benefited from being on its league's best team every time)?

You can't. Seriously, that's grade 2 argument skills there.

I merely said Verratti was better than Kroos. That's not homerism, that's a totally valuable opinion. The fact you don't even watch Verratti (per your own admission) makes it absolutely amazing that you even can dispute that opinion by saying it's ridiculous.

You continue to make up stuff after stuff and act as if others are saying ridicuous things. Here "achievements", who only you discussed, and the "random crazies", while the vast vast majority of posters see Kroos as a top 10 midfielder, but hardly top 5.
Stop making some stuff up and read what the other posters posted. That'd be a start.

 

[AlMo]

Both players have their strenghts and weaknesses. Ronaldo is better at some thinks and Messi is better at something else. They're about even as a players. Cristiano Ronaldo is much better than Messi against top teams. Messi couldn't do **** when there is top defense against him. He likes to score lots of goals against low quality teams, but when the competition gets tougher Messi gets smaller and Ronaldo gets bigger. That's biggest difference between them.

If they go to new teams, it could be much easier to find out who would be better. Messi needs Barcelona system to success and same think works with Ronaldo.

Ronaldo made 2 CL finals and won one, along with winning a ballon d'or with Manchester United.......just saying!

 

[Corto]

Out of the three central midfielders on Madrid, Kroos was the worst. That doesn't mean he was bad. But he certainly wasn't better than Casemiro or Modric.

Do you disagree?

It lacks context. Saying merely "he was the worst" makes it sound like he somehow had a bad game.
He was fantastic, and Modric and Casemiro were as well.
If you wanna say he was the least impactful, we can talk about that. (IMO Casemiro and Isco had bad first halves, improved in the second, so overall, Kroos was the guy, along with Modric, who did his job for 90 minutes - but that's my opinion, and since all 3 had good games, having an opinion that the other two were better is perfectly valid - my issue is with the wording where it sounds like he was somehow awful).

You probably have trouble reading W7's posts. His constant overhyping of Kroos is tiring.
Yes Verratti is a better player.
Since he can't deal with it, he has to resort to those kind of "shine boots" remarks.

That you fall for this is pathetic.

What am I falling for?
I don't know every poster's history. He said the shine boots thing, you said, yes, Verratti is that much better than Kroos.

And no, IMO, Verratti is not better than Kroos, quite the opposite.
Kroos isn't a passanger on this Real team, he's a key cog, much like he was in München.

 

[AlMo]

UCL Ronaldo is just a glorified World Cup Miroslav Klose. Sure, they're good in their own right, but really, it's the team around them that matters. They even both have a signature celebration.

Please stop!!!

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I was wondering, are Messi and Ronaldo that dominant (in an historical sense) or do their accomplishments are enhanced by the era of the Super Club? They both play on all-world teams, that has to impact their stats a lot. More chances to go fair in European competition, easier time stat padding against teams clearly not as good, better teammates to rely on when struggling, etc.

I am not a soccer historian, so I might be mistaken, but I can't help but feel that these two extraordinary players, as good as they are, wouldn't have these kinds of numbers in any other era. On the other hand, they are two statistical outliers among their peers, so, yeah, they are that dominant.

I dunno, just food for thought.

 

[Evilo]

What am I falling for?
I don't know every poster's history. He said the shine boots thing, you said, yes, Verratti is that much better than Kroos.

And no, IMO, Verratti is not better than Kroos, quite the opposite.
Kroos isn't a passanger on this Real team, he's a key cog, much like he was in München.

Of course I said, so, because W7's insistance on lying and making some stuff up is ridiculou, hence my response.

Verratti IS better than Kroos. I never said he was a passenger, but Verratti's better, period.

 

[Evilo]

I was wondering, are Messi and Ronaldo that dominant (in an historical sense) or do their accomplishments are enhanced by the era of the Super Club? They both play on all-world teams, that has to impact their stats a lot. More chances to go fair in European competition, easier time stat padding against teams clearly not as good, better teammates to rely on when struggling, etc.

I am not a soccer historian, so I might be mistaken, but I can't help but feel that these two extraordinary players, as good as they are, wouldn't have these kinds of numbers in any other era. On the other hand, they are two statistical outliers among their peers, so, yeah, they are that dominant.

I dunno, just food for thought.

While I believe (and I have for a long time) that Messi's the best ever, this is absolutely true.
If Messi and Ronaldo had played on good but not all star teams, they'd have much less Bd'O, much less CLs, much less goals, etc...

Football is ruined, and has been for a long time. I haven't watched a full CL final since I don't know how many years.
Protecting the biggest clubs so that they qualify for the CL is bad enough.
Having round robins in the group stage is awful.
Back then, a big team could lose a H2H and go down early. Case in point : Dortmund would have eliminated Real early. Juventus might have been ousted by Lyon. Etc, etc, etc...

 

[Evilo]

Heck, Real wouldn't even have qualified for the CL in the former system.

 

[LemmyUlanov55]

Entertaining game for a neutral fan. Real took over the 2nd half, first team to defend it's title is pretty big. As a Bayern supporter i'm happy for Kroos, guy's a machine.

 

[Power Man]

The same guy who can't do **** when competition gets tough? Yes i've heard about him.

He could be world's best playmaker (huge stretch) or even goalscorer when he plays against weak teams. But if we take a look at who is top on his game, facing high level defense it's not really a question. 5 games, 10 goals against world's toughest competion. Messi could only dream about that.

Daaaaaaamn son, have some mercy