TSN Radio Carlyle likely to be fired

[BiggestLeafsFanEVER*]

from the stuff i've read on the devils board and that's repeated here about how deboer is to young players, i'd be very worried if he became our coach

imo it's important whoever it is is good at developing and being patient with young players

 

[Gallagbi]

Thanks....

I did not like Wilson as a coach because he lacked a system that would help aid in protecting our team from keeping the puck out of our net....His system was not one others were using with good reason it was seriously flawed. Carlyle is using systems that all good teams have been using with Stanley cups as the result of performing it well....Pittsburgh is the most talented team in the NHL and has been for a long time....their issue is lack of a defensive zone system buy in. Chicago is no where near the best team in the NHL and has won two cups....by buying into a defensive first approach. Look at St Louis as a example of team buy in....they would not be considered a top 10 team when assessing the team on skill and talent....yet they are very successful because of system buy in and accountability.

Carlyle is using an extreme collapse that no other team is following and the majority of NHL teams have switched away from the PK system he uses.

Most other teams that collapse are much more active and don't slide as low.

The problems go beyond Carlyle, but his system is obviously flawed

 

[topched]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already but I wouldn't be surprised if they interview Tom Renney.

Coached Shanny in NY. Renney attempted to help EDM through their rebuild and now he's an assistant with Babcock in Detroit

 

[SprDaVE]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already but I wouldn't be surprised if they interview Tom Renney.

Coached Shanny in NY. Renney attempted to help EDM through their rebuild and now he's an assistant with Babcock in Detroit

A good candidate, definitely deserves more attention. I think people don't really mention him because he didn't really do much with a bad Edmonton team or even with the Rangers.

 

[StuckOutHere]

Davis Payne

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

I heard today that they have interest in Barry Trotz ....

Now that's a man who knows how to instill a system long term- the preds definitely have an identity and rep for being hard to play against.

 

[topched]

A good candidate, definitely deserves more attention. I think people don't really mention him because he didn't really do much with a bad Edmonton team or even with the Rangers.

He did coach the Rangers to the playoffs 3/4 full years he was there.

When he was with Edmonton it was in their pure rebuilding phase with near to no expectations.

Now he's learning the Detroit way through babcock

 

[Durrr]

A system is not geared around one small player but a team.....

Detroit, St Louis , LA Kings, Ducks, Boston, Chicago etc are all playing a very similar system....with lots of success......it is poor reads and consequences around the players reads that separate them. Accountability is lacking in Toronto for our worse offenders and with out accountability your system no matter what it is will fail.

I don't think our team is very good at all, but you still ignored my point. All the teams you listed have players tailored to those systems, and it works. The leafs are abundant with soft players, and it doesn't work. There is only room for 1 soft player on this team and that should be Kessel, because he more then makes up for it with offensive talent.

Regardless, the one thing I have heard about RC's system since he got here was how it forces low percentage shots, but a lot of them. This has been a problem all year, our defense isn't good enough to win battles, and our forwards arn't in a good position to assist. Why is it that a team that was in the bottom teams in the league when RC was fired is now a top 5 team, even a contender? I know that all coaches get stale but this is the EXACT same team (minus ryan) that RC was fired from (and lets be honest here, it's hard not to win a cup with the lineup he won with).

He's just not a very good coach for a young team with leadership issues, refuses to adjust, and isn't good with the players. I'd understand if we went through 2 amazing coaches, but Wilson and Carlyle just aren't that.

 

[dimi78]

I don't think it is so much the system as much as it is the personnel in the system. We don't have more than one person on our blue line who can even spell defense(Gunnarsson, Rielly is 2nd best in my book). We also don't have any physical presence on the back end. Gleason lost his edge since he started playing for us. They need to bring someone in on the back end that plays the type of hockey Carlyle is preaching. Our wingers aren't committing to anything in our own end either, they don't really cover the point and they don't really pressure the puck they just float around somewhere inbetween and our defensemen get running around and confused. Especially Dion and especially Franson. If there was a visible system that we could see he was running and we could see it was failing it would be different but personally I don't see any system or any consistency with our line up...it is just a free for all in our own end, the players aren't adhering to any type of system.

I think our PK is a pretty good example of what happened to our team the last 2 seasons. People just started to be terrible and irresponsible. There is no way our PK goes from one of the best to almost dead last in a year because of the coach. The players on the PK didn't even change other than Komarov. Did they forget how to do it after being so successful the year prior?

Funny thing this thing about defense... LA is touted as a defensive team well their coach doesn't think that at all. In fact he's says that people think teams in the NHL play defensive hockey when they really don't, they play a puck possession game and back check. Straight from the coaches mouth even stating that teams who play defensive hockey end up hemmed in there zone and rely on there goalie to make multiple saves... Sound familiar

It's the same with Boston. They're not a defensive team they're a puck possession team who spend more time in the offensive zone than they do in the defensive zone. League wide this has been going on since the new rules breaking away from the clutch and grab era... There's no such thing as defensive teams just great goaltending and puck possession hockey. You guys watch LA in the defensive zone and tell me how they don't rely on Quick to make saves for them. You guys watch Boston defend the D zone and tell me they don't rely on Rask to make saves for them. Why do people think St.Louis traded for Miller? The difference between those teams and the Leafs is offensive puck possession hockey. They spend more time in the offensive zone forchecking forcing turnovers then they do playing in the defensive zone.

This isn't a personnel thing for the struggles this team has and spare me comparable from last season cause it was the same damn thing rope & dope hockey, getting out shot, out puck possessed and out played cause Carlyle plays a defensive attention to detail hockey. THIS IS A FREAKING SKATING OFFENSIVE TEAM TO BOOT

#FireCarlyle... the players have been set up to fail from this micromanaging stubborn coach.

 

[diceman934]

Carlyle is using an extreme collapse that no other team is following and the majority of NHL teams have switched away from the PK system he uses.

Most other teams that collapse are much more active and don't slide as low.

The problems go beyond Carlyle, but his system is obviously flawed

Sorry but I watch a lot of hockey and there is no difference in the system....other then ability to perform.....the only difference is that Carlyle wants to out man the puck in all cases when there is a puck battle.

The PK system he uses is very similar to other teams, but is dependent on the PP system that the teams use....if it is an umbrella spread they use a strict rotation system....and if it is a traditional two point man system they use one forward who pressures the puck when it is high....given more players to protect the prime scoring areas.....our issue is the players...how many put their body on the line to block shots, or take a big hit to make a play....no we have far to many players looking to stay away from the physical areas.

NHL coaches change their system with minor adjustments when playing different teams...Carlyle has always done this....and if you and others can not see the changes....then watch a little more carefully.. His D zone coverage changed substantially when we struggled earlier in the season, as our down low players .....D man and centers went to a man on man coverage when defending when there was no puck battles. Did you not see this adjustment?

 

[ShaneFalco]

What is the delay with firing this guy? Any other team who performed this poorly would have canned him a while ago.

He implemented a system that didn't work with this team from day 1. He refused to adapt, or couldn't, and just thre his hands up in the air and had no answers when they looked like morons out there. No heart, no passion....points to a coach and system the players don't respect.
I don't remember a Leafs's D being this bad, and we've had some pretty bad ones, and players who weren't as talented

Look how hard the Marlies play for Spott.

 

[ShaneFalco]

from the stuff i've read on the devils board and that's repeated here about how deboer is to young players, i'd be very worried if he became our coach

imo it's important whoever it is is good at developing and being patient with young players

Yeah I've read some stuff too that would have me concerned

 

[dimi78]

Sorry but I watch a lot of hockey and there is no difference in the system....other then ability to perform.....the only difference is that Carlyle wants to out man the puck in all cases when there is a puck battle.

The PK system he uses is very similar to other teams, but is dependent on the PP system that the teams use....if it is an umbrella spread they use a strict rotation system....and if it is a traditional two point man system they use one forward who pressures the puck when it is high....given more players to protect the prime scoring areas.....our issue is the players...how many put their body on the line to block shots, or take a big hit to make a play....no we have far to many players looking to stay away from the physical areas.

NHL coaches change their system with minor adjustments when playing different teams...Carlyle has always done this....and if you and others can not see the changes....then watch a little more carefully.. His D zone coverage changed substantially when we struggled earlier in the season, as our down low players .....D man and centers went to a man on man coverage when defending when there was no puck battles. Did you not see this adjustment?

Well you need to watch some more hockey than and focus at the other end of the ice cause that's where Carlyle derailed this team as he did in Anaheim with Getzlaf dropping to a 50 point center and Carlyle still claiming it's defense and attention to detail... The defensive zone wasn't the issue with the Leafs. In fact for the amount of defending the team had to do for 2 straight years they've done a solid job. The problem is they spent 2 years defending and forgot to play offense.

 

[diceman934]

Well you need to watch some more hockey than and focus at the other end of the ice cause that's where Carlyle derailed this team as he did in Anaheim with Getzlaf dropping to a 50 point center and Carlyle still claiming it's defense and attention to detail... The defensive zone wasn't the issue with the Leafs. In fact for the amount of defending the team had to do for 2 straight years they've done a solid job. The problem is they spent 2 years defending and forgot to play offense.

What?

The problem is and always has been defending.....

 

[hockeyes]

What?

The problem is and always has been defending.....

I think his point is teams rely on possession as their primary method of defence. The whole "best defence is a good offence" idea. The Leafs rarely have possession of the puck, regardless of where it is. Hence they give up a lot of shots since the other team always has it.

Sure the defence breaks down and blows coverage but when that is all you are doing for 60 minutes every single night, it's going to happen.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Sure the defence breaks down and blows coverage but when that is all you are doing for 60 minutes every single night, it's going to happen.

Good point.

It also doesn't help that, when we do finally get the puck out, it's usually just to dump it down the ice and get a wholesale line change, with nobody forechecking, leaving the opposing defensemen to just move it right back up the ice.

 

[Gallagbi]

Sorry but I watch a lot of hockey and there is no difference in the system....other then ability to perform.....the only difference is that Carlyle wants to out man the puck in all cases when there is a puck battle.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The system is stationary and overloads the slot. There seems to be a reason for it coming from Wilson but it isn't common. It started off as an emegency/late game philosophy, but Carlyle ended up using it on a regular basis.

The PK system he uses is very similar to other teams, but is dependent on the PP system that the teams use....if it is an umbrella spread they use a strict rotation system....and if it is a traditional two point man system they use one forward who pressures the puck when it is high....given more players to protect the prime scoring areas.....our issue is the players...how many put their body on the line to block shots, or take a big hit to make a play....no we have far to many players looking to stay away from the physical areas.

Most teams have moved away from the press because of the newer PP configurations. The Leafs haven't.

Chasing like they do takes them out of position an creates seems which makes blocking shots difficult.

NHL coaches change their system with minor adjustments when playing different teams...Carlyle has always done this....and if you and others can not see the changes....then watch a little more carefully.. His D zone coverage changed substantially when we struggled earlier in the season, as our down low players .....D man and centers went to a man on man coverage when defending when there was no puck battles. Did you not see this adjustment?

His zone coverage changed more to the collapse. It was always his fallback here, but they eventually slid in to a routine and used it on a regular basis instead of as an emergency.

You see the big changes from last year to this year. He tried to create a safe zone, or that's what it looked like. When they struggled, they went into the safe zone automatically and that became the main defensive system.

Last year that collapse was generally only used in dire situations when the other team was throwing everything they could at the Leafs. This year it slowly became more of the goal throughout the game it is a large reason why the possession numbers were so poor.

 

[dimi78]

I think his point is teams rely on possession as their primary method of defence. The whole "best defence is a good offence" idea. The Leafs rarely have possession of the puck, regardless of where it is. Hence they give up a lot of shots since the other team always has it.

Sure the defence breaks down and blows coverage but when that is all you are doing for 60 minutes every single night, it's going to happen.

Joe Sacco ran the same type of micromanaging attention to detail heavy on defense 1st and Colorado responded with horrible hockey. The Great Matt Duchene was viewed as wait for it a defensive liability Sacco claiming he has to work on D much in the same way Kadri has and it was well documented that all the skill guys had enough of this DEFENSE FIRST approach to the game...

Fast forward to today Colorado with basically the same team is sitting tops in the division all because they fired Sacco in came Roy who promoted a more offensive approach to puck possession, forchecking, skating using there speed and skill on the cycle and relentless at that coming at you at waves with D pinching holding the line all things that so many on here claim as big NO's.... Here in Leaf land we call it run & gun though when a team plays fast using the strength of speed.

They went from a team that received the game to a team that dictated the game. All the issues the Leafs have lie in this defensive 1st approach when it should be about puck possession 1st and dictate games.

We have not 1 but 2 damn good PMD and Carlyle has shackles on them until the team is down by a couple of goals and needing to push the pace and come back... Why can't the PMD skate with the puck from the drop of the puck and force the opposition to defend? Why do we have to be down by 2 when #FreeJakeGardiner & FreeMorganRielly occurs?

#FireCarlyle.

 

[Paralyzer008]

I think the Leafs would improve quite a bit with DeBoer

Shanahan is a smart guy, it'd be a nice move. DeBoer is a good coach.

 

[Diatomic]

I think the Leafs would improve quite a bit with DeBoer

Shanahan is a smart guy, it'd be a nice move. DeBoer is a good coach.

I agree. Not to mention the New Jersey team is horrible yet they are still one of the top teams in the league when it comes to Puck-possession. Deboer would be fantastic here.

 

[david999]

Joe Sacco ran the same type of micromanaging attention to detail heavy on defense 1st and Colorado responded with horrible hockey. The Great Matt Duchene was viewed as wait for it a defensive liability Sacco claiming he has to work on D much in the same way Kadri has and it was well documented that all the skill guys had enough of this DEFENSE FIRST approach to the game...

Fast forward to today Colorado with basically the same team is sitting tops in the division all because they fired Sacco in came Roy who promoted a more offensive approach to puck possession, forchecking, skating using there speed and skill on the cycle and relentless at that coming at you at waves with D pinching holding the line all things that so many on here claim as big NO's.... Here in Leaf land we call it run & gun though when a team plays fast using the strength of speed.

They went from a team that received the game to a team that dictated the game. All the issues the Leafs have lie in this defensive 1st approach when it should be about puck possession 1st and dictate games.



We have not 1 but 2 damn good PMD and Carlyle has shackles on them until the team is down by a couple of goals and needing to push the pace and come back... Why can't the PMD skate with the puck from the drop of the puck and force the opposition to defend? Why do we have to be down by 2 when #FreeJakeGardiner & FreeMorganRielly occurs?

#FireCarlyle.

This is an excellent comparison

 

[Diatomic]

Joe Sacco ran the same type of micromanaging attention to detail heavy on defense 1st and Colorado responded with horrible hockey. The Great Matt Duchene was viewed as wait for it a defensive liability Sacco claiming he has to work on D much in the same way Kadri has and it was well documented that all the skill guys had enough of this DEFENSE FIRST approach to the game...

Fast forward to today Colorado with basically the same team is sitting tops in the division all because they fired Sacco in came Roy who promoted a more offensive approach to puck possession, forchecking, skating using there speed and skill on the cycle and relentless at that coming at you at waves with D pinching holding the line all things that so many on here claim as big NO's.... Here in Leaf land we call it run & gun though when a team plays fast using the strength of speed.

They went from a team that received the game to a team that dictated the game. All the issues the Leafs have lie in this defensive 1st approach when it should be about puck possession 1st and dictate games.

We have not 1 but 2 damn good PMD and Carlyle has shackles on them until the team is down by a couple of goals and needing to push the pace and come back... Why can't the PMD skate with the puck from the drop of the puck and force the opposition to defend? Why do we have to be down by 2 when #FreeJakeGardiner & FreeMorganRielly occurs?

#FireCarlyle.

 

[happyaccident]

Joe Sacco ran the same type of micromanaging attention to detail heavy on defense 1st and Colorado responded with horrible hockey. The Great Matt Duchene was viewed as wait for it a defensive liability Sacco claiming he has to work on D much in the same way Kadri has and it was well documented that all the skill guys had enough of this DEFENSE FIRST approach to the game...

Fast forward to today Colorado with basically the same team is sitting tops in the division all because they fired Sacco in came Roy who promoted a more offensive approach to puck possession, forchecking, skating using there speed and skill on the cycle and relentless at that coming at you at waves with D pinching holding the line all things that so many on here claim as big NO's.... Here in Leaf land we call it run & gun though when a team plays fast using the strength of speed.

They went from a team that received the game to a team that dictated the game. All the issues the Leafs have lie in this defensive 1st approach when it should be about puck possession 1st and dictate games.

We have not 1 but 2 damn good PMD and Carlyle has shackles on them until the team is down by a couple of goals and needing to push the pace and come back... Why can't the PMD skate with the puck from the drop of the puck and force the opposition to defend? Why do we have to be down by 2 when #FreeJakeGardiner & FreeMorganRielly occurs?

#FireCarlyle.

Nice post. In this league, the only use for non-mobile defense is when they're defendo beasts. How often do we get paralyzed in our zone because our dmen are crippled, the puck lands on their stick and they stand around fumbling it like frightened pylons. If we don't have D that can clear the front of the net or box out a girl scout, then let's get a system going where these guys skate it out with support. Get TJ up here and let the young'ns wheel it out. Randy's "system" has just been a bunch of weak-ass defenders standing around in quicksand, collapsing to the net so you have 5 weak-assed defenders standing around instead of 2, leaving a nice crowd in front of the net for their point men to fire away through a screen. What a mess.
Kipper brought up a nice tidbit the other day, Randy's practices are a bunch of standing around followed by just hard skating. Geez.
I emailed Timmy's office after 10 games and then 20, telling him this fat fraud of a coach was a goner anyway so the sooner the better. Why, why won't they listen?

 

[Purity*]

Why even give him 'til the end of the season?

It's like a dog who's blind, deaf and has 2 broken legs, just shoot the poor dog and put it out of its misery. Carlyle is probably already working on finding a job next year.

 

[Mansfield]

deboer would be much better than carlyle at least. honestly every coach is tough on young players