Tribute Carl Gunnarsson vs. Tim Liljegren - a historical comparison.

[mydnyte]

I really don’t see the similarities between the two to be honest.

I agree with your assessment that I also dont see any similarities.
Gunnar brough about as much offense as Brodie ...Lil has offensive potential, he just isnt used in that role yet, he has a good 1 timer, but, the Leafs dont use their defense in the O-zone 5 on 5

 

[thusk]

Tell me a standout player developed under Keefe. We are not talking AM WN MM here.

Lilj should be a legit top4 right now.

Keefe is trash

NHL is not a league of development, sorry especially in a team like toronto with a clear goal to win right now. If youre not good enough to win your spot and win your ice time... Its bad but its player job to work harder to get it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

NHL is not a league of development, sorry especially in a team like toronto with a clear goal to win right now. If youre not good enough to win your spot and win your ice time... Its bad but its player job to work harder to get it.

Just because you're good enough to play in the NHL doesn't mean you can't improve.

Why do you think they have coaches?

 

[Maplebeasts]

Liljegren is a top 4 defenseman by nearly every metric and is significantly better than any defenseman on this team not named Rielly.

 

[thusk]

Just because you're good enough to play in the NHL doesn't mean you can't improve.

Why do you think they have coaches?

i never say you cant improve but coach cant babysit you and cantoverprotecting all the time

 

[Ciao]

Tell me a standout player developed under Keefe. We are not talking AM WN MM here.

Lilj should be a legit top4 right now.

Keefe is trash

Bobby McMann.

 

[arso40]

Bobby McMann.

Nope

 

[notDatsyuk]

i never say you cant improve but coach cant babysit you and cantoverprotecting all the time

Nobody said anything about babysitting or over protecting.

You said it's "not a league of development".

 

[Folignos Helmet]

Between Sandin and Lily, always hoped one would become like Stralman - he had some excellent years with Tampa, and others.

 

[thusk]

Nobody said anything about babysitting or over protecting.

You said it's "not a league of development".

yes and its the case because cant hold players hands. They can teach you what you have to do and whats they expect from you but they cant giving you extra opportunities in game to practice those part of the game like its the case in the AHL, CHK, NCAA... you need to deliver or someone else will

 

[notDatsyuk]

yes and its the case because cant hold players hands. They can teach you what you have to do and whats they expect from you but they cant giving you extra opportunities in game to practice those part of the game like its the case in the AHL, CHK, NCAA... you need to deliver or someone else will

Nobody said anything about "hold(ing) players (sic) hands".

They don't "teach you what you have to do", just how to improve it.

You're arguing against yourself.

 

[thusk]

Nobody said anything about "hold(ing) players (sic) hands".

They don't "teach you what you have to do", just how to improve it.

You're arguing against yourself.

when your coach taking more time for you, you need to be able to transfert whats hes teaching you in your game. They cant take few hour with only 1 guy basically every week just because this guy having a lot of weakness in his game and struggling to improve his overal game. They need to do the best for the team overal so for inly a specific player.

Something AHL coach can do but not an NHL coach

 

[Funk21]

Here is an idea, why don’t we stop saying what this kid isn’t. He is a decent defender who can move the puck and has been jerked around by this organization. Let the kid play and grow. He may not be overly physical but he lays the body when needed.

Kid never got a sniff on the PP last year and put up almost 30 points.

Look am I saying he is cemented in the 3/4 yet no but he certainly holding his own playing with meh. I think he is an outstanding bottom pairing guy. You lock him up for 2 million for the next 3/4 years you’ll be laughing.

 

[ACC1224]

Here is an idea, why don’t we stop saying what this kid isn’t. He is a decent defender who can move the puck and has been jerked around by this organization. Let the kid play and grow. He may not be overly physical but he lays the body when needed.

Kid never got a sniff on the PP last year and put up almost 30 points.

Look am I saying he is cemented in the 3/4 yet no but he certainly holding his own playing with meh. I think he is an outstanding bottom pairing guy. You lock him up for 2 million for the next 3/4 years you’ll be laughing.

How has he been 'jerked around'?

 

[notDatsyuk]

when your coach taking more time for you, you need to be able to transfert whats hes teaching you in your game. They cant take few hour with only 1 guy basically every week just because this guy having a lot of weakness in his game and struggling to improve his overal game. They need to do the best for the team overal so for inly a specific player.

Something AHL coach can do but not an NHL coach

Why would you think an AHL coach can spend more time with individual players than an NHL coach, especially since the NHL team often has more and better coaches, particularly in practice?

You're making less and less sense with each post - time to end this.

 

[Funk21]

How has he been 'jerked around'?

He has been benched any time he makes a mistake and time and time again everyone else is thrown right back out there. It doesn’t instill confidence in the kid and I get he ain’t a kid anymore but this has been going on since he has been brought up.

Media has treated him like he is the worst defenseman to ever play the game. No defenseman is perfect, they all make mistakes but if you look at his underlying numbers and plus minus he is certainly better than most on this team.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

Gunner was so solid. Never noticed him on the ice at any time. That is the mark of a good defenseman.

 

[thusk]

Why would you think an AHL coach can spend more time with individual players than an NHL coach, especially since the NHL team often has more and better coaches, particularly in practice?

You're making less and less sense with each post - time to end this.

AHL goal its not to win whatever what contrairly to NHL... If a gm ask to his AHL to develop X player, he will have to develop this player because thats probably reason #1 why AHL club exist. help to develop team player to become better and give you a chance than one day those player gonna help NHL club

in NHL except if a team is in rebuild, the goal is to win now and put on the ice the best team you can... the goal is not develop your 6/7th dman for the only reason hes younger

same job but 2 goal completly different

if you cant see the difference, yeah for sure it will be a waste of time trying to talk with you.

 

[notDatsyuk]

AHL goal its not to win whatever what contrairly to NHL... If a gm ask to his AHL to develop X player, he will have to develop this player because thats probably reason #1 why AHL club exist. help to develop team player to become better and give you a chance than one day those player gonna help NHL club

in NHL except if a team is in rebuild, the goal is to win now and put on the ice the best team you can... the goal is not develop your 6/7th dman for the only reason hes younger

same job but 2 goal completly different

if you cant see the difference, yeah for sure it will be a waste of time trying to talk with you.

I certainly know the difference between the AHL and the NHL.

What I don't understand is why you think more coaches would each have less time to spend on the same number of players, especially when you consider that at the NHL level, some players will need much less coaching, leaving more time for the ones who do.

Either your math or your logic is severely lacking.

 

[thusk]

I certainly know the difference between the AHL and the NHL.

What I don't understand is why you think more coaches would each have less time to spend on the same number of players, especially when you consider that at the NHL level, some players will need much less coaching, leaving more time for the ones who do.

Either your math or your logic is severely lacking.

the time available will be use to part of the game you want to be succeful with. if its winning like Sheldon Keefe, you will not spend your time the same way than if its individual development like exemple Martin St-Louis with MTL. NHL coach dont have time to spend on everything, so they need to choose on what they want to work. So keefe will spend exemple more time on strategy and whatever helping the team right now, MSL will spend more time on individual development of each player in his team and what who will make habs like a better team in long term. Their goal are not the same, Its just logic

 

[ULF_55]

Liljegren is not in his prime.

Anyone making that determination today is just making crap up.

I am not sold on Liljegren, but that doesn't mean I won't be sold on him when he is in his prime.

 

[notDatsyuk]

the time available will be use to part of the game you want to be succeful with. if its winning like Sheldon Keefe, you will not spend your time the same way than if its individual development like exemple Martin St-Louis with MTL. NHL coach dont have time to spend on everything, so they need to choose on what they want to work. So keefe will spend exemple more time on strategy and whatever helping the team right now, MSL will spend more time on individual development of each player in his team and what who will make habs like a better team in long term. Their goal are not the same, Its just logic

It's not even a matter of goals, it's a matter of very simple time available.

Keefe isn't the one doing the coaching of basics. That's the assistant coaches, of which there are more with fewer issues to deal with.

That's logic - sorry you don't get it.

Let's drop it and let the thread get back on topic.

 

[therealkoho]

You hope this isn’t Liljegren’s prime, because until then it’s Gunnarsson unquestionably.

Hes just 24 with 168 NHL games under his belt, 26 yrs old with 300 games will be all he can be.

He's coming off a high ankle sprain which could still be a little tender so we might not even be seeing his best at this point in his career.

Right now I can see a guy who should be a #4 who would pair up with a good offensive puck moving partner. He can play the 1st PK which is a huge asset. He really does need to stay healthy though

 

[notDatsyuk]

Liljegren is not in his prime.

Anyone making that determination today is just making crap up.

I am not sold on Liljegren, but that doesn't mean I won't be sold on him when he is in his prime.

Agreed. Gunnarsson was clearly better than Liljegren is at the moment, but who knows what will happen.

Personally, I'd like to see Liljegren develop into a better defenceman than Borje Salming (I'm not holding my breath), but I'd be quite happy if he ends up as good as or better than Gunnarsson.

 

[francis246]

Just because you're good enough to play in the NHL doesn't mean you can't improve.

Why do you think they have coaches?

Coaching isn’t the issue. Liljegren can’t make plays under pressure. I said this years ago and got killed. He just isn’t going to be a consistent top 4 guy because he’s so prone to making turn overs. To me he’s a tweezer, he can give you top 4 minutes in segments. But he’s best suited as a bottom pairing defender. He’s not physical enough to be a top 4 guy and his game hasn’t exploded offensively like we’ve hoped. I’m not sure what his identity as a defender is. That’s on Liljegren