Tribute Carl Gunnarsson vs. Tim Liljegren - a historical comparison.

[Ianturnedbull]

I'm here to discuss each player. Both are similar, and both fairly vanilla.

Carl Gunnarsson: 629 career NHL games, Stanley Cup, 138 points, and also played 68 playoff games.

Tim Liljegren: 167 career NHL games, 51 points, played 7 playoff games.

I am not sure Liljegren has peaked yet, but I would think that he's close to his ceiling now.

Who would you choose? Is there more to Liljegren, or is he just a Carl Gunnarsson?


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I do remember Joe Bowen had a tough time when Gunnarrsson and Gustavsson were both on the Leafs. It was so funny.

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[DarkKnight]

I really don’t see the similarities between the two to be honest.

 

[Clyde Brewer]

I think Lily will develop more yet, I think he will be a very effective defenseman for the next 10 years. I still think he is still getting better. He is really starting to look to get open for a shot, I think that is his next area of improvement.

A lot of people are underestimating this guy. We have not done a great job building his confidence.

 

[Buds17]

One is better offensively (Liljegren) while the other was a bit better defensively (Gunnarsson). Gunnarsson was miscast playing on a top pairing alongside Phaneuf. Hopefully the same thing won't happen to Liljegren should he ever find himself as a consistent complement to Rielly (although I do believe that Rielly is better than Phaneuf was).

 

[Bomber0104]

You hope this isn’t Liljegren’s prime, because until then it’s Gunnarsson unquestionably.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I really don’t see the similarities between the two to be honest.

Facts: Swedish, Vanilla, Over 6ft.
Opinion: Quiet, Vanilla, Not really a top 4 defenseman as a Maple Leaf. Not overly physical.

 

[TMLegend]

Gunnarsson by a mile right now.

 

[fahad203]

One is better offensively (Liljegren) while the other was a bit better defensively (Gunnarsson). Gunnarsson was miscast playing on a top pairing alongside Phaneuf. Hopefully the same thing won't happen to Liljegren should he ever find himself as a consistent complement to Rielly (although I do believe that Rielly is better than Phaneuf was).

I'll disagree with that. To be honest I don't remember much of Gunnerson. Which is a good thing. From what I remember he was more dependable than Lilly

Carl was a 7th round pick. We got good value out of a very low maintenance player

 

[Nineteen67]

Liljegren keeps plugging along and improves at every milestone. He’s not real fast or physical, but he certainly can fill an important role on a good team. At 167 games played he hasn’t hit his peak.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Gunnarsson was a very solid defensive defenceman, which was very important when paired with the defensively terrible Phaneuf. Gunnarsson didn't go for the big hits, but he was very effective at separating an opponent from the puck, and very rarely got caught out of position: the polar opposite of Phaneuf.

I don't remember who, but one play-by-play guy had a very one-sided viewpoint: if Gunnarsson stopped a player one-on-one, took the puck away, and passed it up to the winger, he'd say "Leafs clear the puck", but if a shot bounced off Phaneuf's butt and out, if was "great play by Dion".

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

If you're going to compare Liljegren to a Swedish defenseman and Leafs 7th round pick, Stralman would be a better choice.

 

[Lightsol]

I really don’t see the similarities between the two to be honest.

Yep. Lilj is already a better defenseman than Gunnarsson ever was in Toronto. Gun was horribly overrated here mainly because of how bad the Burke-era Leaf defenses were.

 

[Lightsol]

Gunnarsson was a very solid defensive defenceman, which was very important when paired with the defensively terrible Phaneuf. Gunnarsson didn't go for the big hits, but he was very effective at separating an opponent from the puck, and very rarely got caught out of position: the polar opposite of Phaneuf.

I don't remember who, but one play-by-play guy had a very one-sided viewpoint: if Gunnarsson stopped a player one-on-one, took the puck away, and passed it up to the winger, he'd say "Leafs clear the puck", but if a shot bounced off Phaneuf's butt and out, if was "great play by Dion".

I don't know what announcer you're talking about, but my memory of the Leafs at that time was the complete opposite; in fact, I created an award named after Gunnarsson, because for some f***ed up reason no matter what he did it was written off by way too many Leaf fans. EVERYTHING was Dion's fault on that pairing.

Carl had "peaked at 5th defenseman" written all over him, because he didn't excel at everything; he was simply passable. The issue was that the Leafs had such a black hole at D at that time, "5th defenseman who could move up" seemed like a massive upgrade on pretty much everything else.

 

[Lauro]

I guess we are 3 or 4 seasons away from Liljegren's peak. At least.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't know what announcer you're talking about, but my memory of the Leafs at that time was the complete opposite; in fact, I created an award named after Gunnarsson, because for some f***ed up reason no matter what he did it was written off by way too many Leaf fans. EVERYTHING was Dion's fault on that pairing.

Carl had "peaked at 5th defenseman" written all over him, because he didn't excel at everything; he was simply passable. The issue was that the Leafs had such a black hole at D at that time, "5th defenseman who could move up" seemed like a massive upgrade on pretty much everything else.

A very definite dichotomy in viewpoints.

I think a lot of it was just because of their differences - Phaneuf the larger than life superstar and Gunnarsson the quite sidekick. If you were the type of fan who was primarily interested in offence, then Phaneuf was great, and you didn't notice the bad defence. On the other hand, if you were a defenceman or goalie, you really appreciated Gunnarsson's solid defensive play that perfectly complimented Phaneuf.

 

[ponder]

Who says Lily is “close to his ceiling”? Gunnarsson didn’t even make the NHL until he was 23, why are you assuming a 24 year old Lily is done improving? That would be pretty unusual for a dman.

Dmen peak a lot later than forwards, because it’s less about pure athletic prime, more about learning all the details of positioning and team D. Late 20s through early 30s is a very common prime for dmen. It’s hard to come up with an accurate measure of how good a dman is, but here’s Norris winners by age in the 2000s (2000/01 to present):
- 35+ year old winner: 5 times
- 30-34 year old winner: 7 times
- 25-29 year old winner: 3 times
- 20-24 year old winner: 5 times
- Under 20 year old winner: 0 times

Compare that to (forward) Hart trophy winners in the same time range, and it’s clear dmen peak way later:
- 35+ year old winner: 0 times
- 30-34 year old winner: 1 time
- 25-29 year old winner: 12 times
- 20-24 year old winner: 6 times
- Under 20 year old winner: 1 time

Regardless, I think current Lily is better than prime Gunnarsson - more physical, more athletic, a bit better both offensively and defensively. Gunnarsson played higher up the lineup than he should have on some of those Leafs teams, because those teams were terrible, Lily would’ve got big minutes on them too. And I think prime Lily will be quite a bit better than current Lily. I see his upside as similar to prime Weegar, a jack of all trades who isn’t going to wow you with crazy offence or huge hits, but super solid defensively, moves the puck well, and more than decent offensively.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Leafs have been poor at drafting true shutdown defensemen

 

[The Iceman]

New poll

Lily vs Durzi

That was the big debate that LA chose Durzi over Lily at the time of the trade.

 

[arso40]

New poll

Lily vs Durzi

That was the big debate that LA chose Durzi over Lily at the time of the trade.

We coulda got durzi bacc from la what did he go for a second? The right side would look a lot better with an offensive dman that can play and hold his own with a little bite

 

[Burnie97]

Lilly will be the better d man. He's having a tough run lately but he's still young. Like mentioned ... D men take a while unless they're top tier. He'll be fine.

 

[thewave]

Maybe if Keefe would stop ruining our top prospects and developing players.

Mean that too. Keefe is a big part of the self destructive wimpy culture we have.

I just hope Morgan doesnt give up on the team at this point.

 

[thusk]

some people thinknbecause youre younger, youre necessairly becoming better...

but honestly last 3-4 year? can you tell me really where liljegren improve his game? hes at the same level than when they was 3 year ago when he became a full time NHL player and will probably be the same at 27-28

look similar to dermott who at 27 be at the same level than what he was at 21 when he became a full NHL player...

he just look like a player whos already reaching his full potential

 

[thewave]

some people thinknbecause youre younger, youre necessairly becoming better...

but honestly last 3-4 year? can you tell me really where liljegren improve his game? hes at the same level than when they was 3 year ago when he became a full time NHL player and will probably be the same at 27-28

look similar to dermott who at 27 be at the same level than what he was at 21 when he became a full NHL player...

he just look like a player whos already reaching his full potential

Tell me a standout player developed under Keefe. We are not talking AM WN MM here.

Lilj should be a legit top4 right now.

Keefe is trash

 

[Leafs87]

I doubt we’ve seen Timmy’s prime yet, but I’d say him. Gunnar was serviceable but honestly nothing special

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I think Lilly's problem is between the ears, he isn't as cerebral as Gunnar even though he might be stronger and a better skater. Lilly's brain cramps sometimes make me shake my head tbh, I don't see progression over the last couple of years, he's pretty much spinning his wheels.