OT: Career advice

[SnowblindNYR]

I’ve already pointed out I wasn’t mocking or hassling Snownlind, I just ribbed him a bit when he got mad at me.

Meanwhile I’ve been called a massive dick, told I needed socialization and to grow up.

Snowblind I’m sorry. I honestly was not trying to insult you or freak out the entire board.

It's fine. Thanks for the apology. Maybe I was a bit harsh.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Thanks, man. I watched lectures for Python on MIT OpenCourseWare. But honestly, I didn't have the discipline to continue it. Though I'm not sure what you mean about tableau, I don't believe it involves coding. Do you mean just like I understand the concept with tableau I can understand the concept in coding?

Yea it’s that same logic. You use in coding. You have these tools that seem incredibly limited but you can use them to create and problem solve. That’s what coding is about. Just using the tools to produce something or solve a problem. Coding and stats programs like SAS have more tools but the basics are there in excel and tableau. I started using R to look in hockey advanced stats. Find something you’re interested and teach yourself enough to figure that out. Then build off that

 

[sbjnyc]

My experience is in the insurance and finance sector. Haven’t done much with banking, so it’s a little different bc of GAAP and STAT reporting.

But imo, there’s a move to shipping out repetitive jobs overseas and having US based employees focus on analytics and what to do with the data.

So if you’re talking abiut being great with excel, you need to be able to consume and explain the data as well. It sounds simple, but you’d be surprised.

If we had 50 people doing the financial reporting of a line of a business, now we have 30 with 20 consultants in India. The 30 are not expected to be doing excel work all day. They do some, but that alone isn’t enough. You spend your time training people in India and analyzing the output.

That's pretty much what we've done (I work for a large life insurer). We acquired a sub that came with an India presence and we have been expanding that unit's responsibility in one of our divisions but not with respect to corporate finance, which is entirely in NYC (at least AFAIK). In corporate finance we may have a handful of basic spreadsheets used in an ad hoc manner (or as a sub-ledger) but anything considered "financial modeling" or "financial analysis" is much more sophisticated. It's important to remember that the spreadsheet itself is not the product. For example we use a spreadsheet to "manage" a medium term note program. The spreadsheet itself isn't rocket science but it has to essentially prove that the program meets its business objectives in the current market and regulatory environment. It's much easier for someone with finance experience with little to no excel skills to learn to create the program than the other way around.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

That's pretty much what we've done (I work for a large life insurer). We acquired a sub that came with an India presence and we have been expanding that unit's responsibility in one of our divisions but not with respect to corporate finance, which is entirely in NYC (at least AFAIK). In corporate finance we may have a handful of basic spreadsheets used in an ad hoc manner (or as a sub-ledger) but anything considered "financial modeling" or "financial analysis" is much more sophisticated. It's important to remember that the spreadsheet itself is not the product. For example we use a spreadsheet to "manage" a medium term note program. The spreadsheet itself isn't rocket science but it has to essentially prove that the program meets its business objectives in the current market and regulatory environment. It's much easier for someone with finance experience with little to no excel skills to learn to create the program than the other way around.

I get that but the feeling I got from the post you're replying to is that anything excel modeling related has been outsourced to India. That's not really the feeling I get from some of my finance classmates. I don't think that financial modeling is easy per se. It's just easier for me than my last job when I was a Project Manager and was dealing IT stuff I couldn't understand. I feel most spreadsheets given some time I could figure out. Even my banking friends basically say that they're doing simple math.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I get that but the feeling I got from the post you're replying to is that anything excel modeling related has been outsourced to India. That's not really the feeling I get from some of my finance classmates. I don't think that financial modeling is easy per se. It's just easier for me than my last job when I was a Project Manager and was dealing IT stuff I couldn't understand. I feel most spreadsheets given some time I could figure out. Even my banking friends basically say that they're doing simple math.

I worked in Corporate Finance for 5 years and now consult to the function...this is not "wrong" per se, the math behind the financial models that most companies employ is not rocket science. It is not hard to come in to an F500 Corp Finance environment with good excel skills and impress people.

That said, the amount of ways I've seen individuals fall into serious modeling errors because they don't understand, and I mean really understand, 1. model design and 2. financial theory is staggering. I mean simple stuff like not understanding how Excel's base NPV/IRR functions work can have dramatic impacts on valuation. I am not even talking about understanding mid year discounting, not understanding adjustments to EBITDA, not understanding balance sheet/cash flow consistency, which are more intermediate/advanced subjects yet still critical.

A lot of that comes to the fact that most people in FP&A are closer to accountants than finance professionals. It is staggering the number, and size of companies whose FP&A people have no idea what their projections mean for the Balance Sheet and for Treasury folks to have no idea how to accurately analyze a P&L.

On outsourcing it is common that a lot of the "reporting" aspects of the work is not in NA any more or has been automated. What other posters were mentioning about the ability to put together simple schedules that aggregate different data sources is a good example. But I think there is still plenty of room to get a foothold in most companies owning the "analysis" aspect of Corporate Finance. That may change soon-ish as better tech-enabled solutions like Alteryx gain adoption. But that's still in the early innings, in my experience.

BUT, while good analysis is still enough for a career foothold, it is still maybe ~20% of the value-add for Corporate Finance. Helping to keep the books well is a big component. Reporting is a component. Good analysis is a component. But the last, and IMO, largest bucket is using the analysis to drive results that impact value. Said in a less jargon-y way, first you have to convince people in Corp Fi. a. that your findings are right and b. that they matter / are valuable THEN you have to drive on them to get others in the organization (marketing, ops, etc) to actually change their day-to-day behavior. Often without a direct line of authority to those outside finance. That takes real people skills, "project management skills", and the ability to influence. It is rare that "sitting in your cube being smart" is enough for a sustained career in a lot of places, in my experience - even in FP&A.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I worked in Corporate Finance for 5 years and now consult to the function...this is not "wrong" per se, the math behind the financial models that most companies employ is not rocket science. It is not hard to come in to an F500 Corp Finance environment with good excel skills and impress people.

That said, the amount of ways I've seen individuals fall into serious modeling errors because they don't understand, and I mean really understand, 1. model design and 2. financial theory is staggering. I mean simple stuff like not understanding how Excel's base NPV/IRR functions work can have dramatic impacts on valuation. I am not even talking about understanding mid year discounting, not understanding adjustments to EBITDA, not understanding balance sheet/cash flow consistency, which are more intermediate/advanced subjects yet still critical.

A lot of that comes to the fact that most people in FP&A are closer to accountants than finance professionals. It is staggering the number, and size of companies whose FP&A people have no idea what their projections mean for the Balance Sheet and for Treasury folks to have no idea how to accurately analyze a P&L.

On outsourcing it is common that a lot of the "reporting" aspects of the work is not in NA any more or has been automated. What other posters were mentioning about the ability to put together simple schedules that aggregate different data sources is a good example. But I think there is still plenty of room to get a foothold in most companies owning the "analysis" aspect of Corporate Finance. That may change soon-ish as better tech-enabled solutions like Alteryx gain adoption. But that's still in the early innings, in my experience.

BUT, while good analysis is still enough for a career foothold, it is still maybe ~20% of the value-add for Corporate Finance. Helping to keep the books well is a big component. Reporting is a component. Good analysis is a component. But the last, and IMO, largest bucket is using the analysis to drive results that impact value. Said in a less jargon-y way, first you have to convince people in Corp Fi. a. that your findings are right and b. that they matter / are valuable THEN you have to drive on them to get others in the organization (marketing, ops, etc) to actually change their day-to-day behavior. Often without a direct line of authority to those outside finance. That takes real people skills, "project management skills", and the ability to influence. It is rare that "sitting in your cube being smart" is enough for a sustained career in a lot of places, in my experience - even in FP&A.

I feel like I've seen corp fin functions be based more on internal metrics than standard financial statement analysis. I guess you can still use NPV and IRR in those situations. If you have to understand financial concepts that I do to a degree, it makes it tougher of course.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I feel like I've seen corp fin functions be based more on internal metrics than standard financial statement analysis. I guess you can still use NPV and IRR in those situations. If you have to understand financial concepts that I do to a degree, it makes it tougher of course.

Well that's one of the things about FP&A, the actual job function can have a lot of variability across companies. I'd say the core things that most groups do are 1. assist in closing the books at the end of each period, 2. prepare reporting and analysis (typically off of the P&L from the prior period and/or any other company-specific internal reports used), 3. ad-hoc business specific analysis (should we increase marketing spend by $x? should we cut headcount at warehouse y? how is business z performing from an industry metric standpoint? etc.).

For 1 & 2 that is going to be very simple math requiring a limited understanding of Finance but often a decent understanding of Accounting. To analyze a P&L well you really need to understand cost allocation and revenue recognition, which are things I classify as Accounting. For #3, it all depends on the company and the authority given to the group. It could be tracking a bunch of unique internal metrics that may not require a ton of Finance skills, or it could be analyzing investment decisions (should we open a store/plant here? Should we add x capability to our business?) up to including M&A decisions, which require a lot more of the Finance skills I described above. Bucket 3 is what most people in FP&A consider the "fun work" as it is more strategic.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I get that but the feeling I got from the post you're replying to is that anything excel modeling related has been outsourced to India. That's not really the feeling I get from some of my finance classmates. I don't think that financial modeling is easy per se. It's just easier for me than my last job when I was a Project Manager and was dealing IT stuff I couldn't understand. I feel most spreadsheets given some time I could figure out. Even my banking friends basically say that they're doing simple math.

It's not that all of it has, I'm saying that can't be your major value add to the company. I'm just using my experience as a word of advice. You never want to hedge your entire existence on a current limitation at your company. Meaning, if they automate that excel model, is your value still the same? Or are you less of an asset to the company b/c your main role was working in excel and a little analysis. That's where I was going with it.

If being the expert gets your in the door, that's great. You just gotta focus on understanding the end product and the process. So that if they turn around and introduce a tool where you work that makes everyone way less reliant on excel, you can add value and still be as important to them.

 

[sbjnyc]

I get that but the feeling I got from the post you're replying to is that anything excel modeling related has been outsourced to India. That's not really the feeling I get from some of my finance classmates. I don't think that financial modeling is easy per se. It's just easier for me than my last job when I was a Project Manager and was dealing IT stuff I couldn't understand. I feel most spreadsheets given some time I could figure out. Even my banking friends basically say that they're doing simple math.

It's the opposite - sorry if that was unclear. What we outsourced to India are more technical jobs. They were originally just a call center but now they have operational roles and some of the supporting IT roles. But this is in the insurance sector which for the most part doesn't use a lot of spreadsheets for finished products.

Regarding spreadsheets, it's not so much a question of figuring out how they work but rather does what the spreadsheet models add value in some way. Sometimes that value isn't obvious (eg cash flow projections add value to the extent they are complete and accurate) and sometimes they can tell you how to more efficiently deploy capital. Neither will necessarily be complicated but the latter is what I'm thinking of when discussing a corporate finance role.

 

[Crease]

I am currently getting work from three partners with three separate books of business. On one hand, this is a nice problem for an associate to have. On the other hand, I'm finding it difficult to manage turnaround expectations for certain partners who apparently do not like to share. I may have set unrealistic expectations by saying yes to every assignment last year, even if it meant working nights and weekends. I'm learning to say no when I have to, but I'm also getting push back. Ultimately, I think a conversation needs to take place between the partners -- there is currently no one below me to delegate work to.

 

[NCRanger]

It's the opposite - sorry if that was unclear. What we outsourced to India are more technical jobs. They were originally just a call center but now they have operational roles and some of the supporting IT roles. But this is in the insurance sector which for the most part doesn't use a lot of spreadsheets for finished products.

Regarding spreadsheets, it's not so much a question of figuring out how they work but rather does what the spreadsheet models add value in some way. Sometimes that value isn't obvious (eg cash flow projections add value to the extent they are complete and accurate) and sometimes they can tell you how to more efficiently deploy capital. Neither will necessarily be complicated but the latter is what I'm thinking of when discussing a corporate finance role.

We unfortunately do this too. In all my years in IT, I have never found why this is a good idea outside of upfront cost.

I have never ran into a coder offshore that was better than any onshore. Most of them aren't employees of your organization. They're employed by a Indian company and are "working" for three different on-shore organizations.

Writing documentation for offshore coding required me writing at a first grade level and causing me to take a lot more time to write up a simple design document.

The code is almost never correct. On-shore developers have to fix it anyway.

Meeting with offshore requires working wacky hours. One of the value adds my company gets with me, because I prefer starting my day at 7:30 AM (mainly because of traffic patterns.)

I just don't find an overall benefit to it. Not to mention a language barrier.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Writing documentation for offshore coding required me writing at a first grade level
.

I'd be doomed


oh! uhhh

I mean

eyd b dumd

 

[sbjnyc]

We unfortunately do this too. In all my years in IT, I have never found why this is a good idea outside of upfront cost.

I have never ran into a coder offshore that was better than any onshore. Most of them aren't employees of your organization. They're employed by a Indian company and are "working" for three different on-shore organizations.

Writing documentation for offshore coding required me writing at a first grade level and causing me to take a lot more time to write up a simple design document.

The code is almost never correct. On-shore developers have to fix it anyway.

Meeting with offshore requires working wacky hours. One of the value adds my company gets with me, because I prefer starting my day at 7:30 AM (mainly because of traffic patterns.)

I just don't find an overall benefit to it. Not to mention a language barrier.

The biggest issue with offshore that I've run into is the things we in the US (and other 1st world countries) may take for granted that maybe we shouldn't. Documentation may not be their strongest suit but that's not exactly a strength of their US counterparts either.

 

[Irishguy42]

Oh baby. It's getting to that time of year for another performance review. Hope it goes better than last year, which was me walking into the room, them telling me how they thought the year went for the company as a whole for 30 minutes and then giving me a piece of paper with a sad excuse for a raise that was non-negotiable.

Though this time, I actually have a competent manager with several decades of experience as a boss, and we got a regional VP who has been really friendly and understanding/helpful. Might actually have a proper review this time around.

 

[CasusBelli]

We unfortunately do this too. In all my years in IT, I have never found why this is a good idea outside of upfront cost.

I have never ran into a coder offshore that was better than any onshore. Most of them aren't employees of your organization. They're employed by a Indian company and are "working" for three different on-shore organizations.

Writing documentation for offshore coding required me writing at a first grade level and causing me to take a lot more time to write up a simple design document.

The code is almost never correct. On-shore developers have to fix it anyway.

Meeting with offshore requires working wacky hours. One of the value adds my company gets with me, because I prefer starting my day at 7:30 AM (mainly because of traffic patterns.)

I just don't find an overall benefit to it. Not to mention a language barrier.

And the quickness with which they speak. Then they get annoyed when you can’t understand them. How do you think I feel? It’s your job to provide tech support; dealing with issues you created is a waste of my time.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

We unfortunately do this too. In all my years in IT, I have never found why this is a good idea outside of upfront cost.

I have never ran into a coder offshore that was better than any onshore. Most of them aren't employees of your organization. They're employed by a Indian company and are "working" for three different on-shore organizations.

Writing documentation for offshore coding required me writing at a first grade level and causing me to take a lot more time to write up a simple design document.

The code is almost never correct. On-shore developers have to fix it anyway.

Meeting with offshore requires working wacky hours. One of the value adds my company gets with me, because I prefer starting my day at 7:30 AM (mainly because of traffic patterns.)

I just don't find an overall benefit to it. Not to mention a language barrier.

I used to sort of supervise folks in India. I had to do a bunch of the stuff that they couldn't do because of their lack of knowledge about the US. Would have been easier if I just did it myself.

 

[CasusBelli]

I used to sort of supervise folks in India. I had to do a bunch of the stuff that they couldn't do because of their lack of knowledge about the US. Would have been easier if I just did it myself.

My employer has IT teams in NY, Russia and Bangalore. The NY team is just fantastic; the Russian programmers are excellent; India is useless.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

My employer has IT teams in NY, Russia and Bangalore. The NY team is just fantastic; the Russian programmers are excellent; India is useless.

I feel like all of the Indians that are good programmers come to the US, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[CasusBelli]

I feel like all of the Indians that are good programmers come to the US, maybe I'm wrong.

My experience exactly.

 

[NCRanger]

I feel like all of the Indians that are good programmers come to the US, maybe I'm wrong.

Agree to some extent. There are quite a few awful ones here too.

My biggest problem is that they are ALL looked at as they are some sort of experts.

They're also sneaky. They do virtually nothing for the first 3/4 of the development cycle. Then they put in 20 hour days to get the work done. They're then treated as heroes for getting everything done on time. It means there's no ability to properly estimate work. It also means business partners think they can cram more work down the tech team's throats.

When they become your core team, you can kiss job effectiveness and job happiness out the window.

Been in meetings since 9 AM with them. I don't even think I'm in the US any more.

God, GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!!

 

[will1066]

Wow a lot of you are in finance

 

[sbjnyc]

Wow a lot of you are in finance

It's a NYC team and a lot of us live in NYC and NYC is a financial capital so it really shouldn't be too surprising.

 

[Roo Returns]

Wow a lot of you are in finance

It took me like 30 years to realize "oh LA is to film as NY is to finance." LOL.

In any event haven't been around these parts much. New job is kicking my $#% every day but I'm learning and hopefully people appreciate my hustle there. Still have a long way to go.

 

[Crease]

Wow a lot of you are in finance

I left finance to be a lawyer and now I'm a lawyer in finance. It's what this city does.

 

[Kane One]

We unfortunately do this too. In all my years in IT, I have never found why this is a good idea outside of upfront cost.

I have never ran into a coder offshore that was better than any onshore. Most of them aren't employees of your organization. They're employed by a Indian company and are "working" for three different on-shore organizations.

Writing documentation for offshore coding required me writing at a first grade level and causing me to take a lot more time to write up a simple design document.

The code is almost never correct. On-shore developers have to fix it anyway.

Meeting with offshore requires working wacky hours. One of the value adds my company gets with me, because I prefer starting my day at 7:30 AM (mainly because of traffic patterns.)

I just don't find an overall benefit to it. Not to mention a language barrier.

I'm a software developer (also in the finance industry like everyone else here) and most of our tasks for the offshore team in India is to do repetitive tasks that can't really be automated too well. I'd hate to do a lot of their work. But our offshore team does not work for multiple organizations. The Synechron employees work in their Pune office but in a closed off area only for consultants for the company I work for.

They suck and I'd happily get rid of them all if it were up to me.